16:16:28 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:16:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/27-aria-irc 16:16:32 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:16:32 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 16:16:38 chair: JamesNurthen 16:16:42 meeting: ARIA WG 16:17:20 agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/34gp5hL) 16:17:20 agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3cboD95) 16:17:20 agenda+ [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3oOnOYI) 16:17:20 agenda+ [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492) 16:17:21 agenda+ [Problematic User Agents MUST NOT statement needs to be qualified](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1476) 16:17:21 agenda+ [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) 16:17:22 agenda+ [2C "where the user can adjust the embedded control's value" is misleading](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/106) 16:17:22 agenda+ [Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95) 16:17:22 agenda+ [Update to Condition for step 2C](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/90) 16:17:22 agenda+ [Support aria-description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69) 16:17:22 agenda+ [Attribute with natural language but no language metadata](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1365) 16:18:59 regrets+ JamesCraig 16:19:19 regrets+ CarolynMacLeod 16:21:05 present+ 16:57:07 Greta has joined #aria 16:58:11 +present 16:58:28 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 17:02:03 harris has joined #aria 17:02:14 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 17:02:19 present+ 17:02:22 pkra has joined #aria 17:02:26 present+ 17:02:28 present+ 17:02:31 scribe pkra 17:02:36 sarah_higley has joined #aria 17:02:37 msumner has joined #aria 17:02:39 scribe: pkra 17:02:47 zakim, next item 17:02:47 agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/34gp5hL) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:02:48 present+ 17:02:50 present+ 17:03:18 siri has joined #aria 17:03:49 jnurthen: 1489 from wilco. Seems to have a point. Is it 1.3? 17:04:54 ... can we punt to 1.4? 17:05:11 siri: is it false by default? 17:05:41 Jory has joined #aria 17:05:51 brian: originally, was intended to expose it to AT but not visually. 17:06:00 ... and false would expose it. 17:06:18 jnurthen: but this is about role=presentation. 17:06:47 ... button with role=presentation would become a button again with aria-hidden false. 17:06:58 ... doesn't seem intentional from user. 17:07:02 ... is it 1.4? 17:07:10 mattking: 1.4. 17:07:14 brian: validators should flag this 17:07:20 jnurthen: 1.4 it is. 17:07:32 ... issue 1488 17:07:59 ... I tend disagree with the proposal. 17:08:16 ... any takers? 17:08:44 melanie: I'll take a look. 17:09:21 jnurthen: issue 1486. 17:09:39 ... will be in 1.3 17:09:47 ... others are on the agenda 17:09:51 zakim, next item 17:09:51 agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3cboD95) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:10:30 Matt_King has joined #aria 17:10:31 jnurthen: issue 1491 as discussed previously. Needs more reviewers. 17:11:24 mattking: did we document the decision that aria-labelledby provides equivalent to HTML labels, so we do not need additional role=label? 17:11:37 StefanS has joined #aria 17:11:40 jnurthen: yes. unless implementors ask us. 17:11:44 present+ 17:11:54 mattking: right. this is a coding convenience 17:11:55 present+ 17:12:10 jnurthen: right. In a space with plenty of complexity. 17:12:32 ... but noted only in minutes. This was never in the stable branch. 17:12:56 mattking: it would be good to make this easier to find for future reference.. 17:13:32 ... worth it as we (in particular Jon) put a lot of effort into it. 17:13:56 present + 17:14:01 jnurthen: right. the main point is that this doesn't seem anything right now. 17:15:07 ... accname PRs. 17:15:22 melanie: I added implementors and Brian as reviewers. 17:15:42 brian: looked through them and will approve them. 17:16:19 jnurthen: PR 1484. I had some comments but forgot to post them. 17:16:50 ... as the group, we need to work out how we want to deprecate things. 17:17:16 ... in the past, I think we've just removed things. Is that about right? 17:19:24 mattking: going straight for remove seems bad. Deprecate first. 17:19:51 ... deprecating globalness was different (and difficult). 17:20:45 jnurthen: this case seems different. 17:21:17 joanie: is it prohibited? 17:21:27 jnurthen: no. just proposing to remove support. 17:21:36 ... prohibiting was just for global 17:21:46 joanie: do we expect user agent's to stop supporting it? 17:21:48 jnurthen: yes. 17:21:58 joanie: then I'd remove it. 17:22:45 jnurthen: @william this should make the PR actually simpler. Ping me and we can coordinate. 17:23:43 william: will do. 17:24:14 zakim, next item 17:24:14 agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3oOnOYI) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:24:46 jnurthen: would like to propose accname. 17:25:03 17:25:20 ... melanie, brian, would next week work? 17:25:25 brian: I'm out. 17:25:32 jnurthen: ok. any other topics? 17:26:11 Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles #1440 17:26:21 sarah: Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles #1440 ? 17:26:25 jnurthen: great. Will do. 17:26:33 sarah: I had a partial PR for this. 17:26:46 ... I'll remake it and add it to the issue 17:26:56 zakim, next item 17:26:56 agendum 4 -- [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492) -- taken up [from 17:26:59 ... jamesn] 17:27:22 joanie: aria 1.2 is in CR and we want it to move forward. 17:27:33 ... for normative changes, we need verification and documentation of two implementations. 17:27:51 ... historically, user agent implementations were the focus. 17:28:14 ... we probably should also focus on validators (and should have in the past) 17:28:35 ... we also have author-only changes. 17:29:10 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492 17:29:14 ... we had a comment "the list of test results and implementations is small. Is combobox 1.2 really working out?" 17:29:25 https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Authors-MUST---MUST-NOT-inventory#12-only 17:29:25 ... I've created issue 1492. 17:29:40 ... pointing to the wiki page. 17:30:00 jnurthen: "both" means 1.1 and 1.2 17:30:06 ... some are very similar. 17:31:21 joanie: e.g., aria-owns / aria-controls change in combobox change. 17:31:29 ... figure out what do we need to do. 17:31:41 mattking: they might be different from 1.1 MUST 17:32:04 jnurthen: looks like my list is incomplete. 17:32:35 joanie: so we need people to write tests, put them through validators, record results. 17:32:48 ... the critical stuff (e.g., combobox) needs to be in the inventory. 17:32:55 ... makes sense? 17:33:41 jnurthen: the aria-controls was in 1.1 so maybe my list is ok. 17:33:59 mattking: but is the wording the same? 17:34:22 jnurthen: right, it has. 17:35:11 mattking: this sounds like a real project. 17:35:43 joanie: if you're a new member and have lots of experience with validators, this is for you. Write some HTML, push through validators, record on wiki. Done. 17:36:04 mattking: the tricky part is looking at the author must and creating a failing test case. 17:36:36 joanie: correct. I can help with generating something from the UA tests. 17:37:38 jnurthen: sounds like validator people could help... 17:37:43 harris: I'm happy to help. 17:38:18 jory: I'm happy to help. 17:38:39 joanie: I'll make volunteers assignees, organize yourselves, ping me with questions 17:38:51 greta: I'm in. 17:40:50 zakim, next item 17:40:50 agendum 5 -- [Problematic User Agents MUST NOT statement needs to be qualified](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1476) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:41:35 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1487 17:41:43 jnurthen: related to issue 1487 17:42:36 ... e.g., aria-label on div. If browsers are forbidden from doing error correction, that seems like a bad ida. 17:42:46 ... we need to work out what to do in 1.3 17:42:51 ... maybe "may expose them" 17:43:49 joanie: I've been working on this for 6 weeks, huge commits, changing hundreds of (mostly test) files. 17:44:56 ... finally got it far enough but now here 17:45:07 mattking: what are the "counters"? 17:45:26 joanie: google looking for content and potential AT that takes advantage of this. 17:45:48 ... in retrospect, this was probably a mistake. 17:46:10 ... I'm working on a proposal for Google where we log something in the console. 17:46:37 ... if authors don't use validators, they'll get this at least. 17:46:45 ... if google likes it, this might be a good idea. 17:47:02 mattking: to clarify: if author puts label on generic, there would be output on the console? 17:47:14 joanie: only if something is actively asking for name calculation. 17:47:42 ... if AT asks for name, that triggers a calculation in Chromium. 17:48:04 ... if authors don't actively test for this, they won't see the warning. 17:48:17 mattking: do validators test with AT? 17:48:17 q? 17:48:30 joanie: yes. 17:48:52 cynthia: but won't help developers who don't care about accessiblity? 17:49:02 joanie: yes. but would google want to spam all authors? 17:49:07 cynthia: probably no. 17:49:13 ... but is the group large enough to make this useful? 17:49:23 joanie: right. 17:50:30 mattking: if we all the author must not parts are good for the ARIA-AT project, then we can help. 17:51:20 joanie: we're not looking for aria-labels as ATs. User hits tab, screenreader says "foo". It doesn't know where foo comes from, how came to be. 17:51:37 mattking: but if it didn't get a role or a generic role, we could spit it out? 17:51:52 joanie: it might be a hint. 17:52:16 mattking: currently, we're looking at VO with Chrome, if you put an aria-label on it, it creates an empty group. 17:53:10 ... if it's a title, it's treated as an aria-label. So you end up with a lot of empty groups that shouldn't be there at all. 17:53:20 jnurthen: sounds like a Chromium issue. 17:54:43 mattking: if naming is not prohibited on generic. should we change the definition of prohibited to be only probibited for authors. 17:54:55 jnurthen: that's what we had changed. 17:54:56 I would prefer "should not" to removing it completely 17:55:18 jnurthen: would encourage them not to expose it. 17:55:35 mattking: I'm in favour of changing it. 17:55:49 joanie: I'm ok with any consensus. 17:56:21 cynthia: I suspect the concerns will persist. 17:57:01 mattking: I spoke with James about this. Seemed like it could be solved with VoiceOver 2. 17:57:33 agenda? 17:57:37 joanie: orca has logic that says what should have a name and what shouldn't. Text objects shouldn't have them so they're there but ignored. 17:58:26 jnurthen: do we have a path forward? 17:58:45 ... "should not" seems one path. 17:59:42 jnurthen: let's jump to accname 57 17:59:51 zakim, next item 17:59:51 agendum 6 -- [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:59:55 https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843282332 18:00:29 ... this was a bit shocking but I think joanie is right. 18:00:42 joanie: I'd suggest to read it from last comment up. 18:01:33 RRSagent, make minutes 18:01:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/27-aria-minutes.html pkra 19:04:26 jongund has joined #aria 20:58:06 zcorpan_ has joined #aria 22:18:59 dcaro has joined #aria