IRC log of aria on 2021-05-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:16:28 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/27-aria-irc
16:16:32 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:16:32 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:16:38 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
16:16:42 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
16:17:20 [jamesn]
agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/34gp5hL)
16:17:20 [jamesn]
agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3cboD95)
16:17:20 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3oOnOYI)
16:17:20 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492)
16:17:21 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Problematic User Agents MUST NOT statement needs to be qualified](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1476)
16:17:21 [jamesn]
agenda+ [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57)
16:17:22 [jamesn]
agenda+ [2C "where the user can adjust the embedded control's value" is misleading](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/106)
16:17:22 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95)
16:17:22 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Update to Condition for step 2C](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/90)
16:17:22 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Support aria-description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69)
16:17:22 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Attribute with natural language but no language metadata](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1365)
16:18:59 [jamesn]
regrets+ JamesCraig
16:19:19 [jamesn]
regrets+ CarolynMacLeod
16:21:05 [jamesn]
present+
16:57:07 [Greta]
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+present
16:58:28 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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present+
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17:02:26 [harris]
present+
17:02:28 [pkra]
present+
17:02:31 [pkra]
scribe pkra
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17:02:39 [pkra]
scribe: pkra
17:02:47 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:02:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/34gp5hL) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:02:48 [msumner]
present+
17:02:50 [Greta]
present+
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17:03:49 [pkra]
jnurthen: 1489 from wilco. Seems to have a point. Is it 1.3?
17:04:54 [pkra]
... can we punt to 1.4?
17:05:11 [pkra]
siri: is it false by default?
17:05:41 [Jory]
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17:05:51 [pkra]
brian: originally, was intended to expose it to AT but not visually.
17:06:00 [pkra]
... and false would expose it.
17:06:18 [pkra]
jnurthen: but this is about role=presentation.
17:06:47 [pkra]
... button with role=presentation would become a button again with aria-hidden false.
17:06:58 [pkra]
... doesn't seem intentional from user.
17:07:02 [pkra]
... is it 1.4?
17:07:10 [pkra]
mattking: 1.4.
17:07:14 [pkra]
brian: validators should flag this
17:07:20 [pkra]
jnurthen: 1.4 it is.
17:07:32 [pkra]
... issue 1488
17:07:59 [pkra]
... I tend disagree with the proposal.
17:08:16 [pkra]
... any takers?
17:08:44 [pkra]
melanie: I'll take a look.
17:09:21 [pkra]
jnurthen: issue 1486.
17:09:39 [pkra]
... will be in 1.3
17:09:47 [pkra]
... others are on the agenda
17:09:51 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:09:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3cboD95) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:30 [Matt_King]
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17:10:31 [pkra]
jnurthen: issue 1491 as discussed previously. Needs more reviewers.
17:11:24 [pkra]
mattking: did we document the decision that aria-labelledby provides equivalent to HTML labels, so we do not need additional role=label?
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17:11:40 [pkra]
jnurthen: yes. unless implementors ask us.
17:11:44 [StefanS]
present+
17:11:54 [pkra]
mattking: right. this is a coding convenience
17:11:55 [Matt_King]
present+
17:12:10 [pkra]
jnurthen: right. In a space with plenty of complexity.
17:12:32 [pkra]
... but noted only in minutes. This was never in the stable branch.
17:12:56 [pkra]
mattking: it would be good to make this easier to find for future reference..
17:13:32 [pkra]
... worth it as we (in particular Jon) put a lot of effort into it.
17:13:56 [Jory]
present +
17:14:01 [pkra]
jnurthen: right. the main point is that this doesn't seem anything right now.
17:15:07 [pkra]
... accname PRs.
17:15:22 [pkra]
melanie: I added implementors and Brian as reviewers.
17:15:42 [pkra]
brian: looked through them and will approve them.
17:16:19 [pkra]
jnurthen: PR 1484. I had some comments but forgot to post them.
17:16:50 [pkra]
... as the group, we need to work out how we want to deprecate things.
17:17:16 [pkra]
... in the past, I think we've just removed things. Is that about right?
17:19:24 [pkra]
mattking: going straight for remove seems bad. Deprecate first.
17:19:51 [pkra]
... deprecating globalness was different (and difficult).
17:20:45 [pkra]
jnurthen: this case seems different.
17:21:17 [pkra]
joanie: is it prohibited?
17:21:27 [pkra]
jnurthen: no. just proposing to remove support.
17:21:36 [pkra]
... prohibiting was just for global
17:21:46 [pkra]
joanie: do we expect user agent's to stop supporting it?
17:21:48 [pkra]
jnurthen: yes.
17:21:58 [pkra]
joanie: then I'd remove it.
17:22:45 [pkra]
jnurthen: @william this should make the PR actually simpler. Ping me and we can coordinate.
17:23:43 [pkra]
william: will do.
17:24:14 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:24:14 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3oOnOYI) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:24:46 [pkra]
jnurthen: would like to propose accname.
17:25:03 [pkra]
17:25:20 [pkra]
... melanie, brian, would next week work?
17:25:25 [pkra]
brian: I'm out.
17:25:32 [pkra]
jnurthen: ok. any other topics?
17:26:11 [jamesn]
Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles #1440
17:26:21 [pkra]
sarah: Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles #1440 ?
17:26:25 [pkra]
jnurthen: great. Will do.
17:26:33 [pkra]
sarah: I had a partial PR for this.
17:26:46 [pkra]
... I'll remake it and add it to the issue
17:26:56 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:26:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492) -- taken up [from
17:26:59 [Zakim]
... jamesn]
17:27:22 [pkra]
joanie: aria 1.2 is in CR and we want it to move forward.
17:27:33 [pkra]
... for normative changes, we need verification and documentation of two implementations.
17:27:51 [pkra]
... historically, user agent implementations were the focus.
17:28:14 [pkra]
... we probably should also focus on validators (and should have in the past)
17:28:35 [pkra]
... we also have author-only changes.
17:29:10 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492
17:29:14 [pkra]
... we had a comment "the list of test results and implementations is small. Is combobox 1.2 really working out?"
17:29:25 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Authors-MUST---MUST-NOT-inventory#12-only
17:29:25 [pkra]
... I've created issue 1492.
17:29:40 [pkra]
... pointing to the wiki page.
17:30:00 [pkra]
jnurthen: "both" means 1.1 and 1.2
17:30:06 [pkra]
... some are very similar.
17:31:21 [pkra]
joanie: e.g., aria-owns / aria-controls change in combobox change.
17:31:29 [pkra]
... figure out what do we need to do.
17:31:41 [pkra]
mattking: they might be different from 1.1 MUST
17:32:04 [pkra]
jnurthen: looks like my list is incomplete.
17:32:35 [pkra]
joanie: so we need people to write tests, put them through validators, record results.
17:32:48 [pkra]
... the critical stuff (e.g., combobox) needs to be in the inventory.
17:32:55 [pkra]
... makes sense?
17:33:41 [pkra]
jnurthen: the aria-controls was in 1.1 so maybe my list is ok.
17:33:59 [pkra]
mattking: but is the wording the same?
17:34:22 [pkra]
jnurthen: right, it has.
17:35:11 [pkra]
mattking: this sounds like a real project.
17:35:43 [pkra]
joanie: if you're a new member and have lots of experience with validators, this is for you. Write some HTML, push through validators, record on wiki. Done.
17:36:04 [pkra]
mattking: the tricky part is looking at the author must and creating a failing test case.
17:36:36 [pkra]
joanie: correct. I can help with generating something from the UA tests.
17:37:38 [pkra]
jnurthen: sounds like validator people could help...
17:37:43 [pkra]
harris: I'm happy to help.
17:38:18 [pkra]
jory: I'm happy to help.
17:38:39 [pkra]
joanie: I'll make volunteers assignees, organize yourselves, ping me with questions
17:38:51 [pkra]
greta: I'm in.
17:40:50 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:40:50 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- [Problematic User Agents MUST NOT statement needs to be qualified](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1476) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:41:35 [joanie]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1487
17:41:43 [pkra]
jnurthen: related to issue 1487
17:42:36 [pkra]
... e.g., aria-label on div. If browsers are forbidden from doing error correction, that seems like a bad ida.
17:42:46 [pkra]
... we need to work out what to do in 1.3
17:42:51 [pkra]
... maybe "may expose them"
17:43:49 [pkra]
joanie: I've been working on this for 6 weeks, huge commits, changing hundreds of (mostly test) files.
17:44:56 [pkra]
... finally got it far enough but now here
17:45:07 [pkra]
mattking: what are the "counters"?
17:45:26 [pkra]
joanie: google looking for content and potential AT that takes advantage of this.
17:45:48 [pkra]
... in retrospect, this was probably a mistake.
17:46:10 [pkra]
... I'm working on a proposal for Google where we log something in the console.
17:46:37 [pkra]
... if authors don't use validators, they'll get this at least.
17:46:45 [pkra]
... if google likes it, this might be a good idea.
17:47:02 [pkra]
mattking: to clarify: if author puts label on generic, there would be output on the console?
17:47:14 [pkra]
joanie: only if something is actively asking for name calculation.
17:47:42 [pkra]
... if AT asks for name, that triggers a calculation in Chromium.
17:48:04 [pkra]
... if authors don't actively test for this, they won't see the warning.
17:48:17 [pkra]
mattking: do validators test with AT?
17:48:17 [jamesn]
q?
17:48:30 [pkra]
joanie: yes.
17:48:52 [pkra]
cynthia: but won't help developers who don't care about accessiblity?
17:49:02 [pkra]
joanie: yes. but would google want to spam all authors?
17:49:07 [pkra]
cynthia: probably no.
17:49:13 [pkra]
... but is the group large enough to make this useful?
17:49:23 [pkra]
joanie: right.
17:50:30 [pkra]
mattking: if we all the author must not parts are good for the ARIA-AT project, then we can help.
17:51:20 [pkra]
joanie: we're not looking for aria-labels as ATs. User hits tab, screenreader says "foo". It doesn't know where foo comes from, how came to be.
17:51:37 [pkra]
mattking: but if it didn't get a role or a generic role, we could spit it out?
17:51:52 [pkra]
joanie: it might be a hint.
17:52:16 [pkra]
mattking: currently, we're looking at VO with Chrome, if you put an aria-label on it, it creates an empty group.
17:53:10 [pkra]
... if it's a title, it's treated as an aria-label. So you end up with a lot of empty groups that shouldn't be there at all.
17:53:20 [pkra]
jnurthen: sounds like a Chromium issue.
17:54:43 [pkra]
mattking: if naming is not prohibited on generic. should we change the definition of prohibited to be only probibited for authors.
17:54:55 [pkra]
jnurthen: that's what we had changed.
17:54:56 [msumner]
I would prefer "should not" to removing it completely
17:55:18 [pkra]
jnurthen: would encourage them not to expose it.
17:55:35 [pkra]
mattking: I'm in favour of changing it.
17:55:49 [pkra]
joanie: I'm ok with any consensus.
17:56:21 [pkra]
cynthia: I suspect the concerns will persist.
17:57:01 [pkra]
mattking: I spoke with James about this. Seemed like it could be solved with VoiceOver 2.
17:57:33 [jamesn]
agenda?
17:57:37 [pkra]
joanie: orca has logic that says what should have a name and what shouldn't. Text objects shouldn't have them so they're there but ignored.
17:58:26 [pkra]
jnurthen: do we have a path forward?
17:58:45 [pkra]
... "should not" seems one path.
17:59:42 [pkra]
jnurthen: let's jump to accname 57
17:59:51 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
17:59:51 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:59:55 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843282332
18:00:29 [pkra]
... this was a bit shocking but I think joanie is right.
18:00:42 [pkra]
joanie: I'd suggest to read it from last comment up.
18:01:33 [pkra]
RRSagent, make minutes
18:01:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/27-aria-minutes.html pkra
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