17:48:50 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:48:50 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-aria-apg-irc 17:49:07 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:49:23 CHAIR: Matt King 17:49:31 rrsagent, make log public 17:49:40 present+ 17:49:48 zakim, clear agenda 17:49:48 agenda cleared 17:49:57 rrsagent, make minutes 17:49:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:53:11 agenda+ Report on Redesign Project Stakeholder Interview 17:53:12 agenda+ Update on Merging Slider Examples 17:53:14 agenda+ Review Jumpto Content Implementation 17:53:15 agenda+ Check Switch Example Review Status 17:53:17 agenda+ Discuss Tooltip Example Assignment 17:53:18 agenda+ Unicode Symbols in CSS Generated Content 17:57:40 regrets+ Bryan Sarah James 17:57:49 rrsagent, make minutes 17:57:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:58:00 isaacdurazo has joined #aria-apg 17:58:08 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:01:23 regrets+ SarahHigley JemmaKu JamesNurthen BryanGaraventa 18:02:06 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:03:31 carmacleod has joined #aria-apg 18:03:36 present+ 18:03:56 present+ 18:04:00 present+ jongund 18:04:51 present+ 18:04:55 present+ 18:05:31 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:05:52 jesdaigle has joined #aria-apg 18:05:59 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:06:07 +present 18:06:37 [quick roundtable of intros for new folks before scribing begins] 18:06:45 No meeting on June 1st, next meeting is June 8th. 18:06:58 s/No meeting on June 1st, next meeting is June 8th./Matt_King: No meeting on June 1st, next meeting is June 8th. 18:08:18 present+ 18:09:08 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 18:11:07 zakim, next item 18:11:07 agendum 1 -- Report on Redesign Project Stakeholder Interview -- taken up [from Matt_King] 18:12:00 isaacdurazo: been doing interviews and research over the last few weeks, 12 total - 9 APG users and 3 APG stakeholders 18:13:05 isaacdurazo: learned a lot from stakeholders about the intent/design of APG, learn about the known usability problems and constraints, and what success would look like 18:13:27 isaacdurazo: from users, talked to managers/directors, accessbility engineers, web devs, and some students 18:13:54 isaacdurazo: people with 20+ years of experience and others who were very new. there were also 3 screen reader users in our participant pool 18:14:27 isaacdurazo: i identified that a goal of APG is to be a trusted reference for anyone who has accessibility experience and also needs advice 18:14:58 isaacdurazo: it could point people to other resources, but is mostly for people who already have some knowledge 18:15:33 isaacdurazo: people use APG as a reference, and guide to test widgets against. could be as simple as one component, or a complete web redesign 18:16:05 isaacdurazo: it's also helpful that it's a resource backed by W3C - it has a lot of trust in it. 18:16:46 isaacdurazo: i found 3 levels of usage for certain sections - _usage_, not necessarily importance. 18:17:39 isaacdurazo: description of design patters and widgets is what people use the most. 2nd is the example widgets and pages, mostly because they're easy to consume and digest 18:18:24 isaacdurazo: 2nd most common is the introduction (readme, warnings, etc.), and things like info about landmarks, accname, and description 18:18:33 s/2nd is the/this also includes 18:19:17 isaacdurazo: finally, developing keyboard interfaces and how to use semantics and related regions. i put this last because people use it, but couldn't always remember a case where they needed it 18:19:57 isaacdurazo: some other highlights - "No ARIA is better than Bad ARIA", many people like having this up front. some people even wished it was more prominent 18:20:21 isaacdurazo: another one was the keyboard interaction table, roles/prop/state tables - lots of positive comments about this content 18:21:16 isaacdurazo: i also documented frustrations. pretty unanimously, people think APG is a bit too long, overwhelming, sometimes too verbose 18:21:53 isaacdurazo: people mentioned getting lost, not knowing when you transition from one pattern to another. 18:22:32 isaacdurazo: people also thought there is some information missing, like mobile patterns, touch support (which APG does state isn't included, but people would like it) 18:23:06 isaacdurazo: a few participants considered some of the examples and patterns not being very representative of real world cases (maybe 2 or 3 participants) 18:23:37 isaacdurazo: these people had some ideas, but don't find it easy to engage with the community group 18:24:04 isaacdurazo: so that might be another area to improve, that's not about the APG document itself 18:25:11 isaacdurazo: people shared that having a central nav would be nice, rather than a list on the side. most agreed content should be broken up more. 18:25:38 isaacdurazo: many shared that a sorting/filtering/search mechanism would be helpful, as well as jumping right into the example content. 18:26:06 isaacdurazo: some people wanted a "simple english" type of writing style, some wanted an indicator of what's recently changed. 18:26:45 isaacdurazo: having a better experience for mobile devices came up, as well as expandable/collapsible areas. the ability to embed examples or pieces of APG elsewhere came up as well 18:27:24 isaacdurazo: some older folks (having used APG since the beginning in some cases!) expressed a desire to still have the one-page view 18:27:54 isaacdurazo: having an easier way to participate, submit feedback or ideas, or generally interact w/ the group was mentioned often. 18:28:24 isaacdurazo: with regard to priorities, the biggest one is going to be improing the UX. first step is probably going to be coming up with a new information architecture 18:28:54 isaacdurazo: that should help us implement filtering/searching, then that'd lead us to filling in remaining gaps (like tutorials, mobile patterns, etc.) 18:29:41 isaacdurazo: improving the UX and adding these features, while also using the Ed and Outreach group's template, should make the APG a lot stronger and build up its trust and reliability 18:30:09 isaacdurazo: happy to answer any questions or anything else for anyone 18:30:14 Matt_King: thank you so much Isaac! 18:30:50 Matt_King: we'll get the report published and up once we get the repo set up 18:31:14 carmacleod: you mentioned some examples didn't have good real world cases, do you know which ones those are? 18:31:40 isaacdurazo: this report is pretty general, but i can look at the notes if they mentioned it. i didn't want to dive too deep into how the content was written though. 18:31:59 Matt_King: i had a similar question, but I want to be careful that we're getting that feedback from a broad base 18:32:33 Matt_King: which makes me excited to think of a way for readers to give even super lightweight feedback (like is this page helpful/not helpful) _in addition_ to filing an issue 18:32:56 isaacdurazo: it's important to acknowledge that - even when we get feedback like that, it might not be true for everyone 18:33:40 Matt_King: I'm just as curious as carmacleod though, so if you can find that! 18:33:46 isaacdurazo: i'll see what i can dig up! 18:34:02 Matt_King: other questions/comments? 18:34:26 jongund: did you find any differences between what screen reader users said that was specifically different from others? 18:34:58 isaacdurazo: yes - one said he uses APG for educational reasons, and he finds it too cumbersome to use (though it's helpful for his students). 18:35:24 isaacdurazo: another said he's used to it, but didn't necessarily complain about it. might be that he's experienced with APG's layout. 18:35:46 isaacdurazo: even others said things like "it's not the best, but i'm used to it" 18:36:26 Matt_King: as a screen reader user, i don't think about getting lost that much, and it's difficult for me to scroll into something separate. but I can understand how a visual user would get lost 18:36:40 Matt_King: so what's next isaacdurazo? 18:37:16 isaacdurazo: next, i hope to start putting together proposals for a new architecture, maybe over the next 3-4 weeks. i'll get some wireframes made, then get feedback 18:37:41 isaacdurazo: i'm going to start on those wireframes this week, and maybe i'll get something shareable by the end of the week. 18:37:50 Matt_King: would you be ready to share on Jun 8 or 15? 18:37:54 isaacdurazo: that's the plan 18:37:58 isaacdurazo: thanks everyone! 18:38:06 zakim, next item 18:38:06 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MarkMcCarthy 18:38:09 q? 18:38:12 ack jemma 18:38:15 zakim, next item 18:38:15 agendum 2 -- Update on Merging Slider Examples -- taken up [from Matt_King] 18:38:41 Matt_King: we've merged temp and rating sliders, next up is seek 18:39:27 Matt_King: looks like the seek slider needs functional, visual design reviews; a11y on MacOS and Android 18:39:53 carmacleod: I didn't see that I was assigned when I looked last, I'll get these sorted after the call 18:40:14 Matt_King: we'll chat with Sarah, Jemma said she'd wrap up her piece later this week. Siri, is your testing done? 18:40:58 Matt_King: oh wait - I see your approval, nevermind! 18:41:22 Matt_King: so with any luck we'll get this one in within a couple days. 18:41:41 Matt_King: multithumb slider - Siri, do you approve? I see your testing but not an approval 18:42:27 Matt_King: jesdaigle, you reviewed this a while ago, but jongund made changes since then. also some linting errors, jongund. jesdaigle, can you re-review after Jon resolves those errors? 18:42:29 jesdaigle: yep 18:42:59 Matt_King: the linting errors appeared recently, maybe there was an update to the linter or something. 18:43:42 Matt_King: so our Range thermostat, based more on HTML... seems to me it'd be effective to say "here's an ARIA version, but you can do the same with MUCH LESS ARIA, and simple HTML." 18:44:16 Matt_King: thoughts from everyone? If we agree that HTML is a good thing to extoll, which other one should we do with HTML? 18:44:52 Matt_King: would be nice to do one that doesn't use JavaScript 18:45:24 jongund: James felt it would've been useful to show ranges etc. JS can also be helpful for testing to make sure everything is working right 18:45:37 Matt_King: would it be possible to make the color slider with HTML? 18:45:45 jongund: it'd probably be pretty simple, yeah 18:45:56 s/color slider/color viewer 18:46:42 jongund: but we change the color of the rail as things move around, which was part of it. so we might still need some scripting' 18:48:11 Matt_King: i guess we could leave out keyboard handling, and if there were differences, that'd be worth noting, right? 18:49:17 jongund: if we're just doing one slider, there might be only some minor differences. scripting seems kind of minimal. 18:49:53 Matt_King: i think we could also use the same ARIA-AT tests for both, which would be cool 18:51:05 Matt_King: any other thoughts on the idea of doing HTML versions? The idea being to demonstrate how powerful HTML and CSS are, even without ARIA 18:51:17 jongund: idea being ARIA can supplement, vs. be all or nothing 18:51:23 Matt_King: right 18:51:32 zakim, next item 18:51:32 agendum 3 -- Review Jumpto Content Implementation -- taken up [from Matt_King] 18:52:40 Matt_King: i'm not 100% sure how we want to approach reviews here; jongund has addressed many comments and concerns already 18:53:08 Matt_King: want to make sure we're having it show up on all the pages we need it to 18:54:19 Matt_King: having things show up twice in the menu doesn't serve much purpose, so maybe we should address that? 18:55:10 Matt_King: but that's a small thing, only shows up on the index page 18:55:23 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1860#issuecomment-840617404 18:55:32 carmacleod: on every example page, the nav at the bottom itself might not be useful anyway 18:55:44 carmacleod: our validation tool catches it all the time too because it doesn't have a name 18:56:41 jongund: maybe if we don't remove that bottom nav element, we could put it in contentinfo? 18:56:58 Matt_King: or maybe change the role? either way, that's a separate issue maybe 18:57:10 Matt_King: it'd also be a manual change to every example page, unfortunately 18:57:48 jongund: things like this can be useful because these things become apparent when adding features like jumpTo 18:58:30 Matt_King: so it seems like the access key (alt+0) gets announced twice by JAWS, do you know why? 18:58:39 jongund: might be the tooltip with aria-describedby 18:58:53 Matt_King: so if we take that out, what's the other source of announcement? 18:58:58 jongund: the access key 18:59:28 Matt_King: if there's some screen readers that don't announce an access key, then we want to keep that. so we'll need to look at NVDA (I'll do that) 18:59:48 jongund: i fixed the multithumb linting error from prior issue, while we've been chatting 19:00:31 siri: so what's the decision on these navigation landmarks? 19:00:45 Matt_King: this only shows up on one page, so maybe we change it on the index page then 19:01:02 Matt_King: this might have to be a different PR Siri 19:01:15 jongund: well it's configurable, so we could remove the last one 19:01:53 Matt_King: we could consider having it not show the navigation the bottom of the page, that might be easier too 19:01:56 jongund: okay i'll work on that 19:02:10 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:03:01 regrets- SarahHigley JemmaKu JamesNurthen BryanGaraventa 19:03:03 regrets+ Jemma 19:03:06 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:03:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy