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23:48:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:48:58 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
23:49:21 <wendyreid> meeting: Virtual Locators TF Telco May 19 2021
23:49:27 <wendyreid> date: 2021-05-19
23:49:31 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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00:03:21 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y5JKcwlq1rvGYJ1HoLg0GF-NRiBsBNNZopGuQ0mgHUw/edit?usp=sharing
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00:06:35 <duga> scribe+
00:06:43 <duga> wendyreid: Summary of last week
00:06:59 <duga> ... George said let's just use page numbers
00:07:18 <duga> ... But there are questions around pagination in reading systems
00:07:31 <duga> ... May not be possible to have consistent numbers
00:07:38 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:07:43 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:07:45 <duga> ... So let's pick it back up now
00:07:51 <pilarw2000> q+
00:08:13 <duga> BenSchroeter: Would it make sense to look at the use cases and see what would be handled by page numbers?
00:08:26 <wendyreid> ack pilarw2000
00:08:27 <duga> ... For instance, ones with a start and end requirement
00:08:31 <wendyreid> ack pilarw
00:08:39 <duga> pilarw2000: Wants to put in a plug for page numbers
00:08:59 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:09:05 <duga> ... The issue isn't really consistent pagination, that happens already (different sized pages)
00:09:25 <duga> ... we understand that for a given volume the numbers are consistent internally
00:09:35 <duga> ... The real issue is direct to digital
00:09:47 <duga> q+
00:09:52 <dlazin> q+
00:10:07 <duga> ... The only place we need to say there must be some pagination is for those non printed books
00:10:30 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:10:35 <duga> ... May not be that big of an issue since we already aren't consistent
00:11:03 <duga> BenSchroeter: If the publication doesn't have page numbers, we want to avoid virtual page numbers from reading systems
00:11:16 <duga> ... since we want reading system agnostic page numbers
00:11:27 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:11:29 <wendyreid> scribe+
00:11:36 <duga> pilarw2000: I meant authoring not reading system
00:12:10 <wendyreid> duga: I think George's comment was that we should have a virtual page numbering system that is easy to do without pages
00:12:28 <wendyreid> ... google play's secret, we respect the page nubmers when provided, or use bytes
00:12:31 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:12:42 <wendyreid> ... page 75 is the same regardless of device
00:12:59 <wendyreid> ... there's issues for citations on certain devices, encoding changes, might be imprecise
00:13:07 <wendyreid> ... might need to be unicode code points instead
00:13:16 <wendyreid> ... it's doable and easy for both device, authoring system
00:13:21 <wendyreid> ... it feels like a hack
00:13:27 <wendyreid> ... but maybe it's ok
00:13:45 <wendyreid> ack dlazin
00:14:01 <duga> dlazin: Was going to suggest what we already do
00:14:24 <duga> ... a few points: page numbers are already arbitrary
00:14:40 <duga> ... If you have a print book, use it, otherwise we will make something up
00:15:19 <duga> ... May be a problem when a digital first appears in print, or various formats
00:15:57 <duga> ... We don't have to have a single solution, can use pages, tick things off, then adopt other solutions when needed
00:16:08 <pilarw2000> q+
00:16:12 <duga> ... Maybe we should recommend page lists when at all possible
00:16:21 <duga> ... Then suggest a fallback algorithm
00:16:37 <duga> ... which is entirely arbitrary
00:16:56 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:17:12 <duga> BenSchroeter: If we don't do it at authoring and rely on reading systems
00:17:27 <duga> ... we run the risk of non-identical page numbering
00:17:42 <duga> dlazin: Algorithms should be dead simple
00:17:45 <duga> q+
00:18:00 <duga> ... aim for simplicity
00:18:08 <wendyreid> ack pilarw
00:18:30 <duga> pilarw2000: Want to add page numbers are not the only solution
00:18:47 <duga> ... There could also be other numbering systems like section numbers
00:19:05 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:19:36 <duga> ... The types of content that this will be necessary is fiction
00:19:52 <duga> dlazin: Why is fiction different?
00:20:00 <duga> pilarw2000: Fiction has fewer breakouts
00:20:14 <duga> ... Non-fiction has more sectioning
00:20:26 <duga> BenSchroeter: A lot of fiction has no section
00:20:47 <duga> pilarw2000: Some of our use cases are fiction (or similar)
00:20:59 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:21:42 <wendyreid> duga: Few points, page lists and non-device oriented page numbering can be fraught due to device ideologies, some just prefer certain page numberings
00:21:52 <wendyreid> ... differences across devices etc
00:21:59 <wendyreid> ... there's entrenched opinions
00:22:15 <wendyreid> ... we'll face a challenge convincing some people
00:22:37 <wendyreid> ... we might be able to couch it in supplying references/indexes, better ui
00:23:18 <duga> dlazin: How does this role out? In the spec?
00:23:35 <duga> wendyreid: This would probably an extension of the navigation document
00:23:56 <duga> ... If we have some fallback algorithm, then we would have to specify
00:24:17 <duga> ... And this recommendation would have to go through the whole group
00:24:40 <duga> ... and it would be at risk since we need two implementations
00:24:49 <duga> dlazin: Is there some other model?
00:25:06 <duga> wendyreid: We could publish a separate document as a note
00:25:26 <duga> ... And see how people react
00:26:13 <duga> ... But we could try to get two implementations if we are confident
00:26:23 <duga> q+
00:26:43 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:27:11 <duga> BenSchroeter: Matt, what are your thoughts around note vs spec
00:27:34 <duga> mgarrish: Not really. Whichever you want to do is fine
00:28:18 <duga> ... might want to start as a note. Easier to go note to spec than vice versa
00:28:40 <duga> BenSchroeter: There was a perception that not having these citations was a barrier to adoption of epub
00:29:22 <duga> Ronnie: Don't want this to go the way of the indexing standard
00:29:30 <duga> ... want this to get adopted
00:29:38 <duga> ... Do we have contacts
00:29:38 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:29:54 <wendyreid> duga: We have done notes that have become specs, not an absurd way to go
00:30:18 <wendyreid> ... in terms of other reading systems, we have the other bigs, unsure of adoption
00:30:30 <wendyreid> ... in terms of people, we have play, kobo, others
00:30:38 <wendyreid> ... many of them are also w3c members
00:31:12 <mgarrish> q+
00:31:30 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
00:31:32 <duga> wendyreid: We have a lot of reading systems vendors listening
00:31:48 <duga> mgarrish: Some of this will depend on how strongly worded it is in the spec
00:32:24 <duga> ... Could be in the spec but not a must
00:32:46 <duga> wendyreid: Best route is note, lay out the use cases and proposals
00:32:54 <duga> ... There is probably still a CFI role
00:33:15 <duga> ... Note first is also easier to distribute early
00:33:36 <duga> ... Note is way easier to read than the minutes
00:34:11 <duga> wendyreid: That means going back to the use cases
00:34:18 <duga> ... need to narrow down to the core cases
00:34:32 <duga> ... for instance, deep linking might not make the cut
00:34:59 <duga> ... Then figure out which ones would work with page numbers, and which need something else (eg CFI)
00:35:22 <duga> Ronnie: What about getting some tools (eg InDesign) to adopt this?
00:35:36 <duga> wendyreid: We can always ask
00:36:27 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KO-HyLGUUw36F-ruAARHNiPO1aUJCCNeTv3zxGtjuHw/edit#gid=0
00:38:32 <duga> ... Added a new column to see if page numbers satisfy the requirement (in the linked spreadsheet)
00:38:48 <duga> BenSchroeter: Do we also want a primary/secondary column?
00:38:52 <duga> wendyreid: Yes
00:39:27 <duga> ... [Reading first entry]
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00:39:58 <duga> ... [continuing to read through, updating as we go]
00:41:07 <duga> dlazin: Can we get a catchy name for the different types of page numbers
00:41:14 <duga> ... to make it clear
00:42:04 <duga> wendyreid: Mary, your research came up. How do people feel about generated page numbers?
00:42:23 <duga> Mary: I give them arbitrary page numbers in the index, and people seem to like them
00:42:33 <duga> ... they are very familiar
00:42:53 <BenSchroeter> virtual folio (catchy name suggestion)
00:42:59 <duga> ... Pages, ranges, etc mean something, once they are in the text they no longer care
00:43:17 <duga> ... But once in the text they use other markers (eg section numbers)
00:44:01 <duga> Ronnie: How about the word "page link" [?]
00:44:29 <duga> Mary: For now need more testing to see what people think
00:44:54 <duga> dlazin: Looking at a reader app
00:45:10 <duga> ... Looks like they have changed their page numbering recently
00:45:43 <duga> ... Only shows current page when there is a page list
00:46:24 <duga> duga: What happens if you change the font size?
00:46:48 <duga> dlazin: Consistent if there is a page list, but not when there is no page list
00:47:33 <duga> dlazin: Maybe chunks as a name? Or maybe "screens" vs "pages"? But people may not like that
00:48:05 <duga> wendyreid: Maybe the name will come to us
00:49:35 <duga> ... [back to going through the spreadsheet]
00:50:49 <duga> dlazin: Are page level boomarks good enough?
00:51:01 <duga> wendyreid: Most reading systems are more granular
00:51:21 <duga> ... But maybe RS to RS is good enough?
00:52:42 <duga> dlazin: How about metric page numbers?
00:52:52 <duga> ... decimal page numbers solve all our cases
00:53:32 <duga> ... so subdivide pages into smaller sections
00:54:02 <duga> BenSchroeter: so 1.027 or something?
00:54:58 <duga> Mary: Metric might work for some cases (eg annotations or bookmarks)
00:55:29 <duga> ... But when giving them a new location requires orientation
00:55:36 <duga> ... Not always relevant
00:56:43 <duga> dlazin: Could suggest displaying other context when or perhaps recommend ignoring decimal portion when creating eg an index
00:57:13 <duga> BenSchroeter: Same issue with physical books and bookmarks
00:57:50 <duga> Ronnie: A rough location can be better, since the reader needs to understand the context around the reference
00:58:49 <duga> dlazin: If I had an indexing system that links somewhere, I would want to go to the page and highlight the specific text
00:59:32 <duga> pilarw2000: When we embed indexes I link exactly where the target is
00:59:44 <duga> ... sometimes you can't even see the top of the paage
01:00:27 <duga> wendyreid: Time is up! Homework - can we mark up the remaining use cases?
01:00:42 <duga> ... If you disagree just add a comment and we can discuss
01:00:59 <duga> ... My homework will be to set up a note (just a skeleton)
01:01:08 <duga> ... Do people prefer html or markdown?
01:01:43 <duga> dlazin: Why use html? Markdown is better
01:02:24 <duga> wendyreid: Ok, will use markdown
01:03:27 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
01:03:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pilarw, duga, BenSchroeter, Mary
01:03:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
01:03:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/19-epub-locators-minutes.html Zakim
01:03:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
01:03:36 <dlazin> present+
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01:03:38 <dlazin> too late
01:03:43 <wendyreid> it's ok :)
01:03:59 <wendyreid> zakim, make logs public
01:04:06 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
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