IRC log of personalization on 2021-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:09:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #personalization
13:09:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/17-personalization-irc
13:09:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:09:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:09:28 [trackbot]
Date: 17 May 2021
13:11:20 [Sharon]
remove agendum 2
13:11:27 [Sharon]
remove agendum 3
13:11:42 [Sharon]
agenda?
13:11:51 [Sharon]
chair: Sharon
13:12:40 [Sharon]
agenda+ Review updates to the explainer - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/181
13:12:49 [Sharon]
agenda?
13:13:32 [Sharon]
zakim, clear agenda
13:13:32 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:13:54 [Sharon]
agenda+ Review updates to the explainer - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/181
13:14:09 [Sharon]
agenda+ i18n issue #144 (waiting for a response back) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
13:14:28 [Sharon]
agenda+ Open Content module 1 issues https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%221%29+content+module%22
13:56:17 [janina]
janina has joined #personalization
13:59:20 [Matthew_Atkinson]
Matthew_Atkinson has joined #personalization
13:59:30 [Matthew_Atkinson]
agenda?
13:59:36 [Matthew_Atkinson]
present+
14:00:25 [janina]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Holidays
14:01:20 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:01:40 [becky]
becky has joined #personalization
14:02:26 [JF]
JF has joined #personalization
14:02:31 [JF]
Present+
14:02:48 [janina]
present+
14:02:48 [Sharon]
scribe: janina
14:02:52 [janina]
scribe: janina
14:03:11 [becky]
present+
14:03:18 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:03:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Review updates to the explainer - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/181 -- taken up [from Sharon]
14:03:36 [janina]
Sharon: Notes this is the PR ...
14:04:11 [janina]
Sharon: Asks about the various expected edits, what remains?
14:04:39 [janina]
JF: Believe only remaining is bold/italic vs strong/emphasis
14:05:28 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/respec/
14:05:55 [janina]
CharlesL: Notes preference in W3C for strong/emphasis
14:06:06 [janina]
johnNotes CSS styling is still available
14:06:26 [janina]
JF: The semantic includes visual, but can be styled
14:07:18 [janina]
CharlesL: Notes screen reader settings used by some users
14:09:30 [janina]
Sharon: Will look at PR for any gotchyas and approve or inform the list
14:09:51 [janina]
JF: Notes also more recent updates? Are those included?
14:10:39 [janina]
[discussion re whether the PR has the latest and greatest}
14:10:50 [janina]
s/\}/]/
14:11:34 [Matthew_Atkinson]
These are JF's latest changes https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/181/files/876929e665c6042ecca329ae4033dac404abe11f..ee0e82229ad30642d512441c75ab6930acf8b08e
14:11:44 [JF]
The latest is here: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/181/commits/ee0e82229ad30642d512441c75ab6930acf8b08e
14:12:13 [Matthew_Atkinson]
For reference, the date was the 13th of this month.
14:12:16 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:12:16 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
14:12:21 [janina]
q?
14:12:24 [janina]
ack jf
14:12:25 [janina]
q?
14:12:25 [JF]
ack me
14:12:34 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:12:34 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- i18n issue #144 (waiting for a response back) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144 -- taken up [from Sharon]
14:12:51 [janina]
Sharon: Notes this is dangling for i18n
14:12:56 [janina]
Sharon: No response?
14:13:11 [janina]
becky: looks at history
14:14:56 [JF]
Q+ to say we've waited lon genough
14:15:18 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:15:18 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to say we've waited lon genough
14:15:39 [janina]
janina: Suggests misunderstanding not cleared via github, we should ask for mtg as needed to clear
14:15:46 [janina]
jf: Agrees we should move on
14:17:38 [janina]
janina: Will ping addison
14:17:42 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:17:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Open Content module 1 issues https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%221%29+content+module%22 -- taken up [from Sharon]
14:18:20 [janina]
Sharon: Seems destination/action/purpose -- are we good?
14:18:31 [janina]
Sharon: Where to start?
14:18:39 [CharlesL]
q+
14:18:55 [janina]
Sharon: Are we still looking at possibly combining these?
14:19:06 [janina]
janina: My recollection is we didn't actually decide
14:19:14 [JF]
Q+ to propose a path forward
14:19:23 [Sharon]
ack CharlesL
14:19:26 [janina]
CharlesL: Have update on issue 128
14:19:34 [janina]
CharlesL: Tried to reach out, but email bounced
14:19:44 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:19:53 [janina]
Sharon: Close?
14:20:12 [janina]
CharlesL: Yes, but will add comment. Perhaps the github handle may get action?
14:20:43 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:20:43 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to propose a path forward
14:21:08 [janina]
jf: Believe right question posed. We need to make decision on the 3 attributes vs one
14:21:49 [janina]
Sharon: OK, Charles will ping via github and close
14:22:03 [Sharon]
q?
14:22:07 [janina]
jf: Notes 3 attribs proposed for some time; combining coming awfuly late
14:22:31 [janina]
jf: Concerned with the rewrite job
14:22:37 [Sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:22:51 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Suggest we might want to look at some other items and delay this one ...
14:23:03 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Not adverse to delaying this one while we mull it
14:23:19 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: We do have other discrete items, and we've made progress on some
14:23:36 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: We're not quite done with conflict resolution
14:23:50 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Some of these others may be easier to resolve
14:23:55 [janina]
Sharon: Link?
14:24:29 [Matthew_Atkinson]
Latest question on-list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021May/0009.html
14:25:09 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Suggests various distinctions ...
14:25:19 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: expectation of link vs button, etc
14:26:14 [JF]
Q+
14:26:32 [Sharon]
q?
14:26:42 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Believe it's simpler to allow help to be either link or button
14:27:05 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: some destinations might be actions
14:27:06 [becky]
q+
14:27:55 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: the notion "opens inpage dialog" seems reasonable, but could be more than, might be several
14:27:58 [janina]
q+
14:28:17 [Sharon]
q?
14:28:22 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:28:40 [janina]
jf: Agree we could shorten ....
14:29:12 [janina]
jf: point is what serves target audience best?
14:29:29 [janina]
jf: believe we need to define both
14:29:37 [Sharon]
q?
14:29:46 [janina]
ack jf
14:30:02 [Sharon]
ack becky
14:30:27 [janina]
becky: Concerned developers were confused having same name in two places. Is that better documentation?
14:31:03 [Sharon]
ack janina
14:31:37 [JF]
Q+
14:31:49 [JF]
to also talk about augmenting with icons
14:31:59 [JF]
Q+
14:32:01 [becky]
q?
14:32:26 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:32:33 [becky]
q+
14:32:38 [janina]
janina: Concerned we may be over thinking mechanism vs what user needs
14:32:51 [janina]
jf: we had concerned an onscreen icon
14:33:22 [janina]
jf: but we may have multiple help icons -- different terms for each is cleanest
14:33:28 [Sharon]
q?
14:33:31 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:33:48 [Sharon]
ack becky
14:34:02 [janina]
becky: Believe Janina provided justification for just using purpose
14:34:23 [JF]
Q+ to also speak to 'teaching' AI
14:34:24 [janina]
becky: Developer will understand user's need
14:34:31 [Sharon]
q?
14:34:48 [Sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:34:56 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: interesting discussion ...
14:35:17 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Believe adding icon may be indeed simplest; but maybe we only need one
14:36:14 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: if we had a way of working out distination vs action ...
14:36:18 [Sharon]
q?
14:36:28 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:36:28 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to also speak to 'teaching' AI
14:36:42 [janina]
jf: believe goal is also teachin AI systems
14:36:53 [janina]
jf: so specificity wins out
14:37:35 [janina]
jf: Not overly concerned if same icon is used for either
14:37:40 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:37:41 [Sharon]
q?
14:37:51 [Sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:38:02 [CharlesL]
q+
14:38:13 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Generally agree with explicit is better than implicit ....
14:38:37 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: should we consider the rules we give to a validator?
14:38:59 [Sharon]
q?
14:39:00 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Sometimes both would be valid; but other times not. How do we guide?
14:39:55 [janina]
jf: Perhaps an Ed Note asking responses during CR
14:40:19 [janina]
jf: Concerned we may already have devs working from the draft
14:40:44 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Ask one detail ...
14:41:19 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Is the example currently legit? Where both can be used?
14:41:37 [Sharon]
q?
14:41:48 [janina]
jf: Believe not explicitly forbidden; multiple attribs not forbidden
14:42:21 [janina]
jf: Notes authors might do that and we're just trying to augment authoring
14:42:31 [Sharon]
ack CharlesL
14:42:36 [janina]
CharlesL: +1 to Ed Note
14:43:13 [janina]
CharlesL: My only concern with 3 is that we have to ask for 3 from WHAT
14:43:16 [janina]
q+
14:43:30 [JF]
Q+ to suggest that Matthew and I pull together a 'whitepaper' with the outstanding questions and possible ways forward, and reference that in the Ed. Note
14:43:55 [Sharon]
ack janina
14:44:47 [Sharon]
q?
14:45:18 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:45:18 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to suggest that Matthew and I pull together a 'whitepaper' with the outstanding questions and possible ways forward, and reference that in the Ed. Note
14:45:31 [janina]
janina: Notes we're replacing data- specifically, with a reserved prefix
14:45:42 [janina]
jf: Prefers to ask for the attribs without the prefix first
14:46:08 [janina]
janina: That's another conversation and one that's strategic -- possibly above the TF pay grade
14:46:18 [Sharon]
q?
14:47:07 [JF]
draft proposal: a) add Ed. Note to 1st module, b) Matthew and JF pull together a whitepaper that outlines the issues and possible ways forward
14:47:12 [Matthew_Atkinson]
+1 to working with JF on white paper to support Editor's Note about possible ways forward wrt attributes.
14:47:14 [becky]
q+ to ask about resolving the name of the action help value
14:48:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]
+1 to it being a wiki page (thanks Janina)
14:48:14 [becky]
+1
14:48:35 [janina]
jf: Clarifies that we need a destination for our Ed Note to point for all the pros and cons
14:48:37 [Sharon]
+1
14:48:39 [janina]
jf: Could be a wiki
14:48:42 [Sharon]
q?
14:48:43 [Roy]
+1
14:49:12 [Sharon]
q?
14:49:51 [janina]
becky: Are we agreed on this one?
14:49:52 [janina]
+1
14:49:56 [JF]
+1
14:50:04 [Sharon]
+1
14:50:05 [janina]
Sharon: Appears so, and where it lives to be decided
14:50:16 [janina]
jf: Will get it started
14:51:04 [Sharon]
ack becky
14:51:04 [Zakim]
becky, you wanted to ask about resolving the name of the action help value
14:51:20 [JF]
ACTION: JF to start the process of working with Matthew to collect pros and cons, and possible places to host that 'discussion'
14:51:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-84 - Start the process of working with matthew to collect pros and cons, and possible places to host that 'discussion' [on John Foliot - due 2021-05-24].
14:51:39 [janina]
becky: Want to get back to original q? action-help -- are we OK with same name for different values
14:52:08 [JF]
action="opens_dialog" sort of maps to "hasPopup"
14:52:38 [janina]
becky: Appears opening in page dialog is too specific -- as we currently have it
14:52:55 [janina]
becky: Do we need more generic? Or allow two values
14:53:08 [janina]
becky: There was confusion when they were the same, so we broke them out
14:53:19 [JF]
Q+
14:53:38 [Sharon]
ack JF
14:53:42 [janina]
jf: Values?
14:53:45 [janina]
Becky: yes
14:55:03 [janina]
[discussion on what we actually mean ...]
14:55:22 [Sharon]
q?
14:55:50 [janina]
jf: On screen text may say "help," but tech may be different
14:56:05 [janina]
becky: should look at the others where there may be overlap
14:56:14 [janina]
jf: I propose Matthew and I will consider that ...
14:57:17 [Sharon]
q?
14:58:35 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:58:55 [Sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:59:19 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:59:42 [janina]
matthew: Noting I agree with what's being said, thinking distinction may be helpful to some users; but we also want to encourage creative competition among implementing user agents
15:00:06 [janina]
Sharon: So we have a plan ...
15:00:12 [janina]
Sharon: Anything else?
15:01:54 [janina]
zakim, bye
15:01:54 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been JF, CharlesL, Lionel_Wolberger, janina, LisaSeemanKest, sharon, Roy, Matthew_Atkinson, becky
15:01:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #personalization
15:01:59 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/17-personalization-minutes.html janina
15:03:38 [janina]
rrsagent, bye
15:03:38 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/05/17-personalization-actions.rdf :
15:03:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JF to start the process of working with Matthew to collect pros and cons, and possible places to host that 'discussion' [1]
15:03:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/05/17-personalization-irc#T14-51-20