14:50:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:50:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-irc
14:50:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:50:40 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:52:56 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021May/0018.html
14:53:03 <Ralph> agenda+ Community Video Project
14:53:11 <Ralph> agenda+ ISO JTC 1 SC 34 / JWG 7
14:53:18 <Ralph> agenda: Around the Table
14:53:24 <Ralph> agenda+ AOB
14:53:57 <Ralph> agendum 3 = Around the Table
14:54:00 <Ralph> agenda+ AOB
14:56:56 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:57:06 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbgsc
14:57:18 <George> present+
14:57:19 <avneeshsingh> avneeshsingh has joined #pbgsc
14:57:26 <Daihei> present+
14:57:34 <avneeshsingh> present+
14:59:00 <tzviya> present+
15:00:06 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pbgsc
15:00:15 <wendyreid> present+
15:01:01 <Ralph> present+
15:01:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:01:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:01:32 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
15:01:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> great to hear your voice, Avneesh!!!!
15:02:03 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:03 <Zakim> Present: George, Daihei, avneeshsingh, tzviya, wendyreid, Ralph, Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:25 <Ralph> present+ Ivan, Dave
15:02:42 <Ralph> present+ Liisa
15:03:08 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/04/09-pbgsc-minutes previous 9 April
15:03:16 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:03:18 <Ralph> present+ Mateus
15:03:20 <liisamk> present+
15:03:53 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:03:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Community Video Project -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:04:03 <mateus> mateus has joined #pbgsc
15:04:07 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jx5VvkMTQ4EL0Xfb3pDMDUiccq79mmIPHetSRfbziFM/edit?usp=sharing
15:04:10 <mateus> present+
15:04:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: ^^ proposal sheet; the idea is to do short videos
15:04:37 <Ralph> ... we opened that sheet to the public
15:04:41 <Ralph> present+ Garth
15:04:59 <Ralph> ... we only got one suggestion from the community, on encryption
15:05:09 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure what that is intended to mean
15:05:16 <Ralph> ... it was added anonymously
15:05:20 <liisamk_> liisamk_ has joined #pbgsc
15:05:26 <dauwhe> q+
15:05:28 <liisamk_> q+
15:05:30 <Ralph> ... if it's about DRM, it's probably out of scope for talking about what W3C is working on
15:05:40 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:05:44 <Ralph> ... if it's about LCP, it's also probably out of scope for what we're working on
15:06:07 <Ralph> Dave: it's been a common request for years: people want a way to share EPUBs with some assurance that it will only be readable by the intended receiver
15:06:10 <Ralph> ... e.g pre-publications
15:06:22 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
15:06:26 <Ralph> ... there's no way to do it in EPUB itself; it has to be done at the RS level
15:06:40 <Ralph> Liisa: we're planning another BG conference day for June 22
15:07:00 <Ralph> ... we've invited Laurent for EDRlab to give an update on LCP
15:07:05 <Ralph> ... and the status of Thorium
15:07:27 <Ralph> ... we want to social a bit the idea of referring to Thorium more in this conference day
15:07:32 <Ralph> s/social/socialize
15:07:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: we're thinking of ~5 minute videos
15:08:12 <tzviya> scribe+
15:08:18 <liisamk__> liisamk__ has joined #pbgsc
15:08:25 <tzviya> Ralph: All of those who attended the AC meetings have seen the videos.
15:08:58 <tzviya> ...Videos are pre-recorded. I have recommendations. Speaker sends the video, and I can clean up a bit.
15:09:12 <tzviya> ...I send them out to get captions, which are proofread
15:09:32 <tzviya> ...I prefer that the speaker proofs in their own language
15:09:48 <tzviya> ...We have a tool that converts that into Transcript.
15:09:59 <tzviya> ...We publish that on the Website.
15:10:13 <tzviya> ...We prefer slides in HTML, using one of a few tools.
15:10:42 <tzviya> ...If a presenter can't do that, we can work with PDF.
15:10:53 <George> q+
15:11:58 <tzviya> ...It is woth brainstorming about who gives great presentations that the Publishing COmmunity might want to hear.
15:12:06 <tzviya> q+ to suggest AGWG
15:12:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:12:20 <tzviya> ack ge
15:12:28 <Ralph> George: what is the tool for HTML slides?
15:12:34 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:13:50 <Ralph> Ralph: "shower"
15:13:53 <ivan> -> Reveal slide tools https://revealjs.com/
15:13:58 <tzviya> ack tz
15:13:58 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest AGWG
15:14:28 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:14:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: on who in the community might speak on topics of interest to the wider community, Jeanne Spellman comes to mind
15:14:37 <mateus> +1 to Jeanne
15:14:46 <wendyreid> +1 to Jeanne
15:14:51 <Ralph> Bill: are we thinking to publish these at the same time and announce them at once or roll them out over time?
15:15:04 <Ralph> ... what are we thinking for the initial rollout?
15:15:23 <Ralph> Tzivya: I was thinking we'd announce a bunch at one time, a week or two before a virtual f2f
15:15:38 <tzviya> ack avneeshsingh
15:15:41 <Ralph> ... I find it annoying to release things over time
15:15:47 <Ralph> Avneesh: some more topics:
15:15:52 <Ralph> ... EU Accessibility
15:15:55 <ivan> -> Shower presentation slide tool https://github.com/shower/shower
15:16:00 <Ralph> ... Accessibilty Metadata
15:16:14 <Ralph> ... Alignment of EPUB A11y with WCAG 2.2 and WCAG 3.0
15:16:45 <tzviya> regrets+ cristina
15:17:17 <Ralph> ... is it better than I provide a high-level overview of these topics and then Cristina give a detailed presentation on the EU A11y Act and someone else give  a presentation on a11y metadata?
15:17:33 <Ralph> Tzviya: it might be better to combine into one slightly longer presentation
15:17:37 <Ralph> Avneesh: like a panel?
15:18:01 <Ralph> Liisa: a high-level overview with a business focus and 1 or 2 with more technical depth would be useful
15:18:07 <Ralph> ... the high-level piece needs to get out there
15:18:14 <Ralph> ... for senior management to be aware
15:18:37 <Ralph> ... they don't care about metadata semantics or WCAG 2 vs 3, but they do need to know that this is a legal requirement that is coming
15:18:49 <Ralph> Avneesh: there's also a possible presentation on testing
15:18:59 <dauwhe> q+
15:19:06 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:19:09 <Ralph> ... would a presentation on migration to HTML be of interest to see what public feedback we might get?
15:19:17 <Ralph> Dave: great idea
15:19:26 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure who would want to watch a video on testing
15:20:01 <Ralph> ... I think trying to deal with some of the big issues and expressing the fact that there are complicated tradeoffs and not an obvious path forward
15:20:03 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:20:03 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on testing
15:20:08 <Ralph> Tzviya:  please add your idea to the sheet
15:21:14 <ivan> +1 to ralph
15:21:22 <liisamk__> +1 to ralph
15:21:22 <ivan> q+
15:21:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Ralph
15:21:49 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:22:13 <Ralph> Ralph: a presentation on what the WG is doing to make the spec clear on conformance and to develop tests is valuable, doesn't need to be long or in-depth
15:22:30 <Ralph> Ivan: and the work to reorganize the EPUB spec to be easier to use
15:22:35 <avneeshsingh> +1 Ivan
15:22:57 <Ralph> ... even the editors' draft is much more readable now than the EPUB 3.1 or 3.2 specs
15:23:17 <Ralph> Dave: I'll think more about what would be a good things to try
15:23:45 <Ralph> Tzviya: what topics are important for the Japanese audience?  what are we missing?
15:23:54 <ivan> q+
15:23:56 <liisamk__> q+
15:24:06 <Ralph> Daihei: thinking about it; at the last PBG Asia/Japan/NA meeting there were more than 10 attendees from Japan
15:24:30 <Ralph> ... the Japanese interest has expanded into a11y, applied especially to digital video and digital library environments
15:24:38 <Ralph> ... and applications of fixed layout to various situations
15:25:00 <Ralph> ... and the ability to read other formats, including PDF
15:25:16 <Ralph> s/PDF/PDF and a series of JPEGs
15:25:46 <Ralph> ... I'm thinking about various ideas and would like to come back next week in email on the topics that are typical of the Japanese market that we should talk about
15:25:56 <Ralph> ... so people understand the Japanese digital video situation
15:26:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: should we have any of these recorded in Japanese?
15:26:18 <Ralph> Daihei: it depends on the speakers
15:26:38 <Ralph> ... if captions in Japanese can be provided, that would be really helpful
15:26:42 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:27:00 <Ralph> Ivan: I would love to hear an overview of what you can do with FXL
15:27:18 <Ralph> ... for many authors FXL is still magic and they don't know what it can do and how to do it
15:27:33 <Ralph> ... a presentation on what can be done and how would be useful
15:27:41 <tzviya> ack liisamk__
15:27:47 <Ralph> ... find someone who can do a really good video on that; that would attract people
15:27:59 <wendyreid> q+
15:28:03 <Ralph> Liisa: something on a11y for FXL would be helpful; that's come up as a concern in our meetings
15:28:10 <Ralph> ... from what I hear the WG is getting there
15:28:16 <Daihei> q+
15:28:27 <Ralph> ... I can do something about FXL with pop-ups for kids, a11y, and when not to use FXL
15:28:35 <Ralph> <ralph> Liisa++
15:28:56 <Ralph> ... we've been working on a decision tree: start with reflow and only go to FXL if you have certain things
15:29:20 <Ralph> Tzviya: we put you in for a mixed reflow/FXL demo, but feel free to change it to your preference
15:29:29 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:29:29 <Ralph> Liisa: I do want to do a demo; I think that would help
15:29:50 <Ralph> Wendy: Ken is listed to do an FXL/A11Y update
15:30:03 <Ralph> ... part of the work of the TF is to do some experimental content to show what you can do
15:30:18 <ivan> q+
15:30:22 <Ralph> ... any demo should be absolute about "we're going to make this accessible"
15:30:27 <Ralph> ... and Ken is the perfect person to do that
15:30:36 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:30:36 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on language
15:30:36 <Ralph> ... he makes really good FXL books
15:30:55 <ivan> q-
15:32:58 <tzviya> ack Daihei
15:33:10 <Ralph> Ralph: we can certainly discuss translation of captions as appropriate
15:33:33 <Ralph> ... even if a presenter prefers to present in other than English
15:33:54 <Ralph> Daihei: I'll include the Japanese FXL business, will think about whether one slot or multiple slots
15:34:18 <Ralph> ... I will include this either way either by me or from someone else in Japan
15:34:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: there's been a change from Makoto on how CSS is represented
15:34:48 <Ralph> ... should we have him or Fantasai present that?
15:35:01 <avneeshsingh> It is publishing CG task force
15:35:06 <Ralph> Dave: using the class attributes for the alternate stylesheets?
15:35:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes, though this may be too much detail for now
15:35:32 <Ralph> Dave: I don't think it needs involvement from other groups
15:35:59 <Ralph> Tzviya: let's pick dates for the Q&A and work backwards
15:36:29 <Ralph> ... I'll create a Doodle poll
15:36:40 <liisamk__> Sept for Q&A
15:36:42 <Ralph> ... but are we thinking July or August or September?
15:36:45 <Ralph> <ralph> Sep
15:37:13 <Ralph> Wendy: July, maybe August becase for one of these; HTML serialization in EPUB, will help the WG; September will be too late for that
15:37:26 <Ralph> ... if we have to do that presentation in a different context, we can find a way I'm sure
15:37:30 <ivan> either way :-)
15:37:32 <Ralph> Tzviya: lots of opinions
15:37:38 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:37:40 <avneeshsingh> August or september is better, looking at practical timelines.
15:38:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:38:23 <liisamk__> q+
15:38:40 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:38:47 <Daihei> +1 to Sep
15:38:57 <Ralph> Ralph: we don't know who will be using July and August for something approximating a vacation
15:39:00 <avneeshsingh> +1 to separate HTML presentation and do it early
15:39:09 <tzviya> ack liisamk__
15:39:21 <Ralph> Ivan: the HTML serialization is on the WG agenda in 2 weeks so we might not need it in July
15:39:34 <Ralph> Liisa: we might have dual events; some things to talk about in July and some for September
15:39:48 <Ralph> Tzviya: good idea; if we do that then maybe later than September
15:40:23 <Ralph> ... so let's target July 15
15:40:38 <Ralph> ... we need 1 month lead time for the captioning and translation
15:40:50 <Ralph> ... if we reach out to the speakers now they'll have 6 weeks to prepare the content
15:41:13 <Ralph> ... please add to the list by end of next week; 21 May
15:41:23 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:41:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- ISO JTC 1 SC 34 / JWG 7 -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:41:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: just getting this on our radars
15:41:50 <Ralph> ... several are unsure about the steps
15:41:55 <ivan> q+
15:42:29 <Ralph> George: my understanding is that this group is alive and looking for items that need to be standardized in their domain
15:42:39 <Ralph> ... most of the work that was originally proposed is completed
15:43:26 <Ralph> ... if they don't have further work the group might be closed and it would be challenging to regenerate later
15:43:47 <Ralph> ... we'd only bring work to them once there are W3C Recommendations
15:43:54 <Ralph> ... so we aren't revising in ISO
15:44:17 <Ralph> Avneesh: right; we could have a TF to brainstorm on how to move things forward
15:44:31 <Ralph> ... the previous fast track process used for EPUB 3.0 and 3.1 was via Korea
15:44:48 <Ralph> ... we have to consider the impact on those if we use W3C PAS
15:44:56 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:45:05 <Ralph> ... I suggest a TF to consider it for some months and come back with a recommendation
15:45:21 <Ralph> Ivan: PAS puts us in a very different situation than the previous paths for EPUB
15:45:40 <Ralph> ... PAS gives us the ability for the document to become an ISO standard as-is without additional editorial work
15:45:52 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure there's even a need for a WG within ISO
15:46:17 <Ralph> ... PAS is a process with JTC1; it's at the high level in the ISO hierarchy
15:46:30 <Ralph> ... PAS comes into the picture when we have a W3C Recommendation
15:47:01 <Ralph> ... it's way to early at this point, though I hear the ISO WG's interest in getting work
15:47:44 <Ralph> ... the only thing is that we should have an agreement on is whether we have an agreement that once EPUB 3.3 is a W3C Recommendation it is our intention to put it through PAS?
15:47:53 <Ralph> ... if anyone asks that question we should have a clear answer
15:48:03 <Ralph> ... that question will come up
15:48:11 <Ralph> ... I don't yet know the answer
15:48:18 <Ralph> ... all the rest is at least a year away
15:48:34 <Ralph> ... the W3C Recommendation is planned for February 2023
15:48:54 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:48:55 <Ralph> Tzviya: one of the things we have to take into consideration is, as Avneesh said, how EPUB 3.3 affects the earlier EPUB ISO standards
15:50:40 <avneeshsingh> +1 to having a early resolution
15:51:48 <George> q+
15:53:21 <tzviya> ack George
15:53:30 <Ralph> Ralph: W3M would very much want to hear a recommendation from the WG  and BG on whether and when (i.e. how long after W3C Recommendation) W3C should take EPUB 3,3 through PAS
15:53:55 <Ralph> George: I'm not sure the ISO WG understands how PAS might work
15:54:28 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:54:28 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on understanding the agreement
15:56:05 <Ralph> Ralph: refer them to JTC1 for the definition of PAS; the only additional detail is that W3C will only take Recommendations through that JTC1 process
15:56:10 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:56:10 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Around the Table -- taken up
15:56:25 <liisamk__> q+
15:56:57 <Ralph> Wendy: the FXL A11y TF is trying to gather samples from publishers of existing FXL content as best practices
15:57:05 <Ralph> ... some publishers have offered material
15:57:17 <Ralph> ... there have been questions on "fair use" language
15:57:33 <Ralph> action: Ralph ask Wendy Seltzer for some fair use language
15:57:41 <tzviya> ack liisamk__
15:58:29 <Ralph> Liisa: in the BG conversation with Japan last Tuesday, Makoto expressed that he's skeptical that EPUB is a Web thing
15:58:43 <Ralph> ... he's also skeptical that reflow and FXL can be combined
15:58:59 <Ralph> Daihei: when it comes to a11y for FXL, that's true
16:00:03 <Ralph> ... the Japanese publishing industry is getting advice and my plan is to talk with various members and get some idea on how to deal with accessibility for FXL
16:00:17 <Ralph> ... FXL is *the* format for manga
16:00:24 <Ralph> ... this is very important for Japan
16:00:46 <Ralph> ... and this is why Makoto is somewhat pessimistic
16:01:17 <Ralph> ... I hope to come up with a united  message expressing the Japanese concerns
16:02:12 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm hearing a confusing message about what direction we need to head
16:02:20 <Ralph> ... I look forward to hearing more
16:02:44 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:04:49 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
16:04:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George, Daihei, avneeshsingh, tzviya, wendyreid, Ralph, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Dave, Liisa, Mateus, liisamk, Garth
16:04:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:04:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:05:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
16:18:30 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:18:30 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
16:18:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph ask Wendy Seltzer for some fair use language [1]
16:18:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-irc#T15-57-33