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18:04:18 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group - App Dev and Test Writing
18:04:36 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Seth Thompson
18:04:50 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
18:04:58 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/06-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:05:04 <s3ththompson> present+
18:05:13 <Matt_King> present+ Matt_King James_Scholes
18:06:15 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/06-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
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18:08:33 <Matt_King> scribe: Matt_King
18:09:15 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Update on current sprint (sprint 5)
18:09:31 <Matt_King> This sprint ends May 14
18:10:03 <Matt_King> Seth: Onboarded Howard and Z
18:10:16 <Matt_King> Whole team running at full capacity.
18:10:37 <Matt_King> In process of migrating API to graphQL
18:11:22 <Matt_King> Howard writing test coverage of whole schema for the API
18:12:10 <Matt_King> Example: in past, tight dependency between types of entities, such as every test run had to be associated with an AT and browser version combo.
18:12:36 <Matt_King> Now, there is a more generic config entity that could expanded in future.
18:13:14 <Matt_King> Nearly done setting up new sandbox environment. Staging and prod are on a W3C server.
18:13:47 <Matt_King> Alex setting up additional script to deploy to an AWS instance that can be used as a sandbox to share changes more frequently.
18:14:03 <Matt_King> Will enable more frequent testing with stakeholders.
18:14:33 <Matt_King> Also improving how we build/spec the environment itself.
18:15:39 <Matt_King> Z is starting to clean up the existing harness js file.
18:16:24 <Matt_King> This one long file that presents a test and validates the form field values and communicates with parent frame to change page appearnce (e.g., view layer)
18:16:53 <Matt_King> Z changing to an APIand port to more maintainable  library
18:17:26 <Matt_King> Will not change how the test running feels but will enable us to add features
18:17:52 <Matt_King> Jes: enables sharing issue between aria-at and aria-at app , e.g., like raise issue button
18:20:12 <Matt_King> Z: Currently when the page is rendered, the code has to query the DOM to make changes instead of going back to the JSON objects
18:20:27 <Matt_King> This is a primary change
18:20:58 <Matt_King> The library will be a modal view controller minus the view
18:21:11 <alflennik> present+
18:21:17 <Matt_King> Provides event handlers to maintain state
18:21:37 <Matt_King> Can query current test instead of harvesting from DOM
18:25:55 <Matt_King> All: discussion of separation of presentation from test data collection
18:26:19 <Matt_King> James: What is aim around public consumption of the API
18:26:48 <Matt_King> Will there be documentation.
18:27:05 <Matt_King> Jes: We document everything we do, whether public is further conversation.
18:28:52 <Matt_King> mk: We are doing to support immediate project needs but do not have specific goals for public consumption of API
18:29:04 <Matt_King> James: good that it could support rapid prototyping
18:29:19 <Matt_King> Seth: Library Z is working is agnostic WRT where data is stored.
18:29:41 <Matt_King> Agree can be used for rapid prototyping.
18:30:17 <Matt_King> Other question is what is our stance relative to publishig aria-at app API docs
18:31:45 <Matt_King> Z, what is format likely to be?
18:32:01 <Matt_King> z: Could be NPM lib or something else
18:33:23 <Matt_King> James: QIs this a js lib vs a web api?
18:38:45 <Matt_King> James/Z/Seth: discussion of mechanics of test rendering from the source csv through html/json to app
18:44:46 <Matt_King> mk: how far we from getting rid of generated files in aria-at repo
18:45:08 <Matt_King> seth: there is not necessarily dependncy on Z's work for that
18:47:10 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/06-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:49:15 <Matt_King> seth: Didn't know that we had this strong consensus on getting rid of genn'd files in the aria-at repo.
18:49:46 <Matt_King> mk/james: Eager to get rid of them b/c they they generate merge conflicts that are slowing merging in a big way
18:50:07 <Matt_King> james: keep in mind the way the gen'd files enable preview
18:50:25 <Matt_King> seth: Say we get rid of need for gnerated files tomorrow?
18:51:13 <Matt_King> Would this change any thoughts  on the test status tracking in the app?
18:51:33 <Matt_King> mk: makes it even more important because we will get more draft tests in the the app
18:53:45 <Matt_King> seth: What would you say to proposal to a bit more flexible system that allows admins to add tags rather than a drop down that bakes in specific process
18:54:57 <Matt_King> mk: consider it but need to be sure the tagging enables process required by the working mode
18:56:29 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:56:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/06-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
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19:06:50 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Community group meeting on Test Writing - new agenda starts here
19:07:05 <jongund> present+ jongund
19:09:24 <Matt_King> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/May-6,-2021-Community-Group-Meeting
19:09:45 <VenkateshPotluri> present +VenkateshPotluri
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19:09:55 <s3ththompson> scribe: s3ththompson
19:10:13 <s3ththompson> TOPIC: Assistive technologies like screen readers should inform the user when they reach the end or beginning of a slider
19:10:36 <s3ththompson> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/412
19:12:08 <s3ththompson> James: should (or how should) a screen reader should convey the values of aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax when a user arrives on a slider?
19:12:51 <s3ththompson> James: from a technical standpoint, when you have an aria-implemented slider, the screenreader doesn't necessarily know any underlying detail about the slider
19:15:11 <s3ththompson> James: more importantly, the "aria-valuetext" attribute is supposed to be a human-friendly display version of the value
19:20:37 <s3ththompson> Matt: i just want to make sure we're on the same page: this is a situation where the aria-at project has an opportunity to nudge vendors into a more user friendly space. if we do this, it would be an instance of that... this means communication is really important. and it sets a higher bar for what assertions we're proposing
19:21:40 <s3ththompson> jongund: how much do browsers know about valuetext?
19:22:52 <s3ththompson> James: on mac at least, voiceover gives both valuetext and valuenow
19:25:13 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: this will probably be a philosophical issue we will get to with combobox too
19:26:55 <s3ththompson> James: what if valuenow, valuemin, and valuemax all just accepted text?
19:30:12 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: another issue is that directionality is not known, no way to know if a key press is incrementing or decrementing
19:31:52 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: I guess ideally the web page indicates this
19:32:04 <s3ththompson> James: we've implemented this before for education clients
19:32:24 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: we could update APG example to add something like this (maybe even sounds)
19:33:35 <s3ththompson> Alyssa_G: just to point out, sound alert wouldn't work for braille users
19:35:43 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: we need to have a separate approach for sliders with and without valuetext
19:35:58 <s3ththompson> James: we need to have a separate approach for sliders with and without valuetext
19:37:05 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: does this mean that if valuetext is set, there's no benefit to valuemin/valuemax/valuenow?
19:37:13 <s3ththompson> James: correct, for now at least
19:38:04 <s3ththompson> James: so question becomes: should we add valuetextmin / valuetextmax? or if having valuemin/valuemax be numeric offers no value... should they accept text?
19:38:59 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: the argument for having numeric valuemin/valuemax is that if an a11y API doesn't support valuetext they can at least calculate a percentage from valuemin/valuemax
19:42:03 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: we should also provide guidance that valuetext can include a range... leaves ideal format up to content publisher
19:44:07 <jongund> Rating Slider: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-rating/examples/slider/slider-rating.html
19:44:38 <jongund> Media Seek Slider: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-seek/examples/slider/slider-seek.html
19:45:24 <s3ththompson> TOPIC: Compositional Test Plan Creation
19:45:31 <s3ththompson> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/388
19:47:51 <s3ththompson> James: how do we test html semantics alongside aria while reusing as much as possible?
19:48:27 <s3ththompson> James: for many elements there's a way to do it fully in html, a way to do it fully in aria, and a way to do it in-between
19:51:19 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: a few different angels: where do the tests come from? who writes them? how do they get checked in?
19:52:03 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: first off, just to clarify ARIA is in the project title, but in the broadest sense... it should include semantics that come from html and svg
19:53:25 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: (by the way, this matches evolving APG focus too)
19:53:42 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: as early as this year, we may see pure html examples from APG
19:56:25 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: in the abstract, there is a bit of an divergence between the aim of APG (feature-rich, practical examples for authors) vs. the aim of ARIA-AT (testing the most atomic, small examples possible)
19:56:49 <s3ththompson> Matt_King: in the limit i'd like to introduce two categories of tests: attribute testing and pattern testing
20:00:06 <s3ththompson> James: in an automated world, testing 300 "attribute tests" wouldn't be a problem
20:03:54 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/06-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King