17:56:02 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:56:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-aria-apg-irc 17:56:10 zakim, clear agenda 17:56:10 agenda cleared 17:56:24 rrsagent, make log public 17:56:47 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:56:55 CHAIR: Jemma 17:57:05 present+ 17:57:15 rrsagent, make minutes 17:57:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 18:02:33 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:02:57 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:03:14 present+ 18:03:21 Jemma has joined #aria-apg 18:03:37 Meeting? 18:04:00 present+ jongund 18:04:28 zakim, start meeting 18:04:28 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:04:29 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Jemma 18:05:02 Meeting: ARIA APG meeting 18:05:10 present+ 18:05:16 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:05:19 present+ 18:05:36 Meeting agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/May-4%2C-2021-Agenda 18:06:49 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma 18:07:12 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:07:17 carmacleod has joined #aria-apg 18:07:25 present+ 18:07:25 Topic: APG Redesign Project update from Seth and Isaac from Bocoup 18:07:42 present+ 18:08:02 Seth: the big update is that we met with WAI last week, the ops team, and a couple other reps from education and outreach 18:08:44 s3ththompson: we talked about a plan to come up with a long term migration of APG content to a more readable site 18:09:04 s3ththompson: WAI said they came up with a minimal template that should be really useful for us 18:09:13 s/Seth: the/s3ththompson: the 18:09:41 regret+ sarah 18:09:53 s3ththompson: we also talked aout the structure of APG in a different format. in order to not disrupt much, we thought we'd publish the APG as an unlisted URL under WAI, and we can use that as a sandbox 18:10:12 s3ththompson: APG repo wuold be unchanced, publishing unchanged. 18:10:24 s/wuold be unchanced/would be unchanged 18:10:43 present+ jamesn 18:10:48 Laura_f has joined #aria-apg 18:11:01 Matt_King: a note about the design template - it's a page tempalte that'll be used for all the other WAI supporting resources for WCAG 18:11:27 Matt_King: it's basically the header and footer that'll be used by understanding WCAG SC etc., and they're right at the point where they want input 18:11:46 Matt_King: we're, as APG, definitely open to making suggestions 18:11:55 s3ththompson: i was happy to hear that too 18:12:36 Isaac: happy to meet everyone! i've been working with the ARIA-AT TF before, glad to be on the redesign project too 18:12:54 ... I'm going to be doing some design research to get some ideas from you all 18:13:08 some design template Seth mentioned https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-supporting-documents-redesign/2020-07-15-prototype-act.html 18:13:13 https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-supporting-documents-redesign/ 18:13:34 Isaac: I'd like to start with a series of conversations with you all; get some ideas, learn some assumptions 18:13:59 Isaac: Goal is to improve the architecture of the APG and help it become more legible and user friendly - especially for web devs 18:14:06 ACT template example - https://deploy-preview-51--wcag-act-rules.netlify.app/standards-guidelines/act/rules/html-page-non-empty-title-2779a5/ 18:14:47 Isaac: Over the next couple of weeks, i'd love to have a session with anyone/everyone who is available, about 45 min, and we can talk about what you see as success and goals 18:15:06 Isaac: less formal interview, more casual conversation, so don't be shy! 18:15:23 Isaac: I'll send an email with more details right after today's call 18:15:25 + 1 to follow up email by Issac 18:15:36 Isaac: Questions? 18:15:53 Jemma: what's the milestones for the project? Do you know a rough timeline? 18:16:31 s3ththompson: we'd like to start writing some scripts to generate WAI's templates within the next month. hopefully put it on an unlisted URL so we can look at it 18:16:53 s3ththompson: Matt_King, you were saying a longer term migration would happen after the next APG publication? 18:17:32 Matt_King: we want to take the most iterative approach, so the goal is that as soon as APG 1.2 is done, that'll be the last time we publish to TR directory 18:18:02 Matt_King: from then on, we'll maintain the Github pages through the start of the project, will still look like what TR looks like 18:18:38 Matt_King: i expect we'll take all the time we have between then and ARIA 1.3's recommendation to iterate the design of APG and what'll eventually appear on WAI's site 18:19:07 Matt_King: once we fully support ARIA 1.3 then we can debut a fresh new look 18:19:48 Matt_King: it could be we're ready for the new design prior to that and that could be our new editors draft, but we can think about that later on 18:20:14 Matt_King: always hard to know how these things shake out 18:20:18 present+ bryanG 18:20:48 jongund: about scope - is the stuff on the WAI website just our stuff? or are WCAG techniques etc. going to be there too? in other words, will it still remain separate? 18:21:18 Matt_King: for now, phase 1 is getting skeleton together, phase 2 will be the first redesign. we want to think about fitting those things in our architecture, but that's more involved 18:21:46 Matt_King: the only integration we plan by the end of the year is the ARIA-AT support tables 18:22:03 jamesn: maybe the next part is links to other things in WAI to make it easier to find 18:22:14 Matt_King: yep. THEN we'll think about integrating tutorials etc. 18:22:32 Matt_King: the education group is keen on that, but that might be a 2022 thing 18:22:55 Matt_King: ANYONE who has any interest, please carve out some time and meet up with Isaac! 18:23:12 Isaac: I'm hoping to start tomorrow, and go for a couple weeks. I'm flexible, reach out! 18:24:00 carmacleod: we talked about (deep)linking into APG from the ARIA spec last week. question is why haven't we done that before? we figured it was generally a good idea 18:24:33 carmacleod: i'd like to make the links more deterministic in APG; more direct into the naming guidance table 18:25:04 Matt_King: currently, if you have no-toc on something, that means that you can't put an IDREF for respec on it - it'd break 18:25:15 Matt_King: or anything below an H3 18:25:37 jamesn: i can talk to you about that, we can work on something that'd be workable, like aria-practices-definition for example 18:26:06 Matt_King: whatever we do, we'll want to think about how we maintain that. we've had that problem for a while with not enough hands. glad to have jamesn's help 18:26:23 jamesn: it's always been _possible_ but there's a lot of ways to go about it so it's kinda complicated 18:26:39 Matt_King: I've always wanted to reference the keyboard docs from a pattern page 18:26:59 jamesn: the patterns pages aren't respec docs, so respec can't generate links. that'd be harder to do 18:27:53 jamesn: tell you what, let me take a look at all this and we can see what we can do, i'll talk to Marcus 18:28:07 Matt_King: it'd be good to have a stable way of referencing any heading or table 18:28:22 Agenda? 18:28:33 jamesn: so any place you want to externally refer to something, it'd need to be exported 18:29:01 Matt_King: okay, let's not get too deep. 18:29:19 jamesn: we can talk to the maintainers of the repo to see what we can do 18:30:04 Matt_King: let's have an issue opened to discuss this, referencing APG resources from specs 18:30:12 Matt_King: can someone open that? 18:30:14 carmacleod: i'm on it 18:30:17 Matt_King: thanks! 18:30:44 Matt_King: can you assign that to s3ththompson? s3ththompson, you can hand it to whoever needs it. please assign me too 18:30:49 TOPIC: Slider example update 18:30:54 Topic: Slider example (comments on temp, media seek, multithumb slider and rating slider example) 18:31:16 Jemma: lots of comments, and some reviews needing done 18:31:27 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1864 18:31:40 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1864#issuecomment-832123780 18:31:44 Matt_King: i think this one is close to ready, but i ahve one question on value-text 18:31:51 value text - degree symbol 18:31:53 Matt_King: it's currently using the degree symbol -- 18:32:17 jongund: no, it's not. the value text is using the word degrees and spelling Celsius. the visual label is the way you're describing 18:32:24 jongund: may be a bug then 18:32:47 jongund: nope, aria-valuetext is using "degrees Celsius" 18:33:00 Matt_King: maybe i was looking an out of date one 18:33:18 jongund: the visible label, which isn't part of the slider proper, uses the symbol and abbreviation 18:33:33 Matt_King: okay, a non-issue then? 18:33:49 jamesn: no you're right Matt_King, the static HTML page doesn't have the update 18:34:09 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-temperature/examples/slider/slider-temperature.html 18:34:22 jongund: i'm not seeing that though 18:34:32 Matt_King: may be a technical/githack issue, no biggie 18:35:02 media seek slider - https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1863 18:35:03 Matt_King: at least at Facebook, we tend not to use symbols in labels or valuetexts. not sure if that's a wider standard 18:35:16 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1863#issuecomment-831958339 18:35:20 Matt_King: in the seek slider, are we spelling out hours etc.? 18:35:26 jongund: yep 18:35:47 Jemma: siri - your comment? 18:35:48 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1863#issuecomment-831958339 18:36:10 "NVDA/Chrome in browse mode: 18:36:10 18:36:10 Narrates the time duration text as real time. For example: 1:00 is narrated as "one o clock" instead of 1 min, 0:00 as "midnight". 18:36:10 18:36:10 The slider is not narrated as interactive (i.e. clickable) element. It is narrated as Media Seek slider 3 Minutes 36 Seconds of 5 Minutes. When I remove role="none" from the it is narrating it as clickable but this approach adds other issues like narrating the whole graphic as clickable. I checked native HTML input type="range" and the screenreader announced it as slider. So I am not worried with the current approach. Please let me know if 18:36:10 you won't agree with me." 18:36:17 siri: the actual text, the valuetext, is being read correctly. but in browse mode it's reading as a time 18:36:23 Matt_King: i think that's a synthesizer thing 18:36:26 +1 Matt_King 18:36:53 jongund: i think what's happening is the visible label is #:##, so it's probably picking it up like that 18:37:17 Matt_King: like when you first tab into it, oh okay. does it say that when you change things Siri? 18:37:29 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-seek/examples/slider/slider-seek.html 18:37:34 siri: no, when I change it, it seems fine, only when i tab into it 18:38:02 jongund: so that's not part of the slider proper, but the visible label. not sure we can do anything 18:38:06 Matt_King: i'm not worried about it 18:38:18 Matt_King: i think that's an NVDA thing 18:38:32 jongund: and all screen readers would see that as technically separate from the slider node 18:38:42 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1758 18:39:20 Matt_King: so on PR 1863, we still need reviews done. working on mine, sent an email to Jess about hers. we still need the a11y review done by Siri 18:39:25 Matt_King: are you ready to approve? 18:39:27 siri: yep 18:39:42 Matt_King: to be clear - this is all for the media slider 18:39:53 Jemma: the only reviews left are Matt_King and Jess 18:40:10 Matt_King: I think this is where we're at with the temp slider as well 18:40:21 jongund: yeah, so you can take a look as part of the overall review 18:40:31 Jemma: back to PR 1758 18:41:35 Matt_King: vis design review - carmacleod what do you think? 18:41:43 carmacleod: visual design? aha, okay 18:42:09 Matt_King: oh, wait you approved 18:42:37 Jemma: that just leaves editorial and code by Matt_King and Jess 18:42:40 Matt_King: good to go on that one then 18:42:45 Jemma: PR 1867 18:42:46 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1867 18:43:02 Jemma: I added WCAG touch target info 18:43:14 siri's comment - https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1867#issuecomment-832134630 18:43:54 siri: i'm seeing that we're adding information. if I tab to it, I see "none of 5 stars" etc. but if I lose focus or browse, it doesn't say that anymore. it only says "none" 18:44:15 Matt_King: so how did you change the value? 18:45:07 siri: If I change the mode to browse, and change the value, then tab out or change focus, it seems like the aria-valuetext doesn't update 18:46:04 Matt_King: so I just changed it, then went into browse mode, and it's telling me the correct information 18:46:27 siri: but if you don't ever tab to it, the user never hears "out of 5 stars" or similar - whatever the range is 18:46:37 Matt_King: JAWS announces the min/max when in browse mode, NVDA doesn't 18:47:17 Matt_King: doesn't the valuetext string include the "of 5 stars" or similar? 18:47:41 jongund: when the page loads it says "none of 5 stars" 18:47:51 Matt_King: when the page loads, is the "of 5 stars" part of the value text? 18:48:18 jongund: when it gets focus then it adds the additional info. so when the page loads, it just gives the current state (like "no stars") 18:48:46 Matt_King: so I'm trying to figure out what triggers the "of 5 stars" to go away 18:49:17 Matt_King: it's reading the way we expect... 18:50:04 siri: so if you change the value, then go out and come back to the slider, it doesn't announce it. 18:50:24 jongund: when the page loads, the value of -valuetext is just "no stars" 18:50:47 Matt_King: so when i changed the value from half to one star, and changing NVDA to browse instead of focus, NVDA just says the value is one star 18:51:10 Jemma: seems like we might need more time. my testing with Android was hopeful, seems like it's getting better 18:51:50 Matt_King: so I think Siri's suggestion of when the value changes, or onBlur would be good. might as well do it onLoad too 18:51:56 jongund: i'll do that 18:52:27 jongund: do we have an update on JumpTo? 18:52:52 Matt_King: let's get that in a minute, let's go to the next agenda items 18:53:12 TOPIC: Add deprecation warning to Collapsible Listbox example 18:53:14 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/remove-listbox/examples/listbox/listbox-collapsible.html 18:53:25 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1852 18:53:36 Matt_King: i put some comments into the PR, I want to know if the warning's appearance and words are sufficiently obvious 18:53:54 Jemma: yes, and i was thinking about adding it to the spec 18:54:10 Matt_King: we can have the warning on th epage, but sincee it's deprecated, i think we should remove all links to it 18:54:12 Jemma: +1 18:54:13 +1 18:54:14 jongund: +1 18:54:15 +1 for removing the example 18:54:32 s/th epage, but sincee/the page, but since 18:54:47 jongund: there should be something in the index saying it's deprecated 18:54:49 Matt_King: oh yes 18:55:05 Matt_King: could we add a data attr to exclude something for deprecation? 18:55:32 jongund: maybe a metatag in the head 18:55:44 Matt_King: or on the H1, or... does it have to be anywhere specific? 18:56:00 jongund: can use a query selector, so it could be anywhere 18:56:29 jongund: this is in a branch right now, right? 18:56:35 Matt_King: yeah we'd merge first then do this 18:57:03 jamesn: as to removing links - instead of just removing the links, should we have a deprecated section of links? 18:57:16 Matt_King: opposition to adding "(deprecated)" to the page title? 18:57:24 jamesn: that's a good idea 18:57:28 jongund: could be useful for the index too 18:57:31 +1 18:57:55 Matt_King: so, jamesn, instead of removing from the index, we could have a section of deprecated content 18:58:28 jamesn: i'm picturing a dev who has followed this to a T, but mgmt comes back and says WTH - might be useful in that case 18:58:33 Matt_King: maybe we add the date too then? 18:58:42 jamesn: that'll be really important as we move forward 18:58:49 +1 jamesn's thoughts 18:59:47 Jemma: so lets add some comments to reflect jamesn's ideas 19:00:28 siri: how will the browsers or APIs handle it? will they be deemed inaccessible if they use deprecated things? 19:01:01 Matt_King: that's more of an ARIA question, not APG. this is just deprecating an example. in your example though, browsers didn't remove support of anything like that 19:01:07 Jemma: let's close the meeting, thanks everyone! 19:01:15 Matt_King: thanks friends! 19:01:25 zakim, who is here? 19:01:25 Present: Matt_King, Jemma, sarah_higley, MarkMccarthy, garaventa, carmacleod, jongund, Siri, isaacdurazo, jamesn, bryanG 19:01:28 On IRC I see Laura_f, carmacleod, MarkMcCarthy, Jemma, siri, jongund, RRSAgent, Matt_King, MichaelC, isaacdurazo, zcorpan_, github-bot, s3ththompson, jamesn, Zakim, ZoeBijl, 19:01:28 ... trackbot 19:01:45 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:01:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:02:59 regrets+ CurtBellew 19:03:01 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:03:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy