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23:26:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-epub-irc
23:26:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:26:23 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:26:33 <dauwhe> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:26:38 <dauwhe> Chair: dauwhe
23:57:25 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
23:57:44 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #epub
23:57:55 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Apr/0046.html
23:58:33 <dauwhe> present+
23:58:43 <MattChan> present+
23:59:25 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
23:59:33 <toshiakikoike> present+
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23:59:59 <shiestyle> present+
00:00:29 <wendyreid> present+
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00:01:51 <MattChan> scribe+
00:02:15 <BenSchroeter> present+
00:05:29 <duga> duga has joined #epub
00:05:31 <MattChan> TOPIC: TF updates
00:05:34 <duga> present+
00:05:45 <MattChan> wendyreid: both TFs met this week
00:06:08 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1654
00:06:12 <MattChan> ... FXL TF talked about next steps for best practices, and for experiments
00:06:36 <MattChan> ... gpelligrino and I working on experiments
00:06:47 <MattChan> ... virtual locators TF discussed use-cases
00:06:51 <MattChan> ... moving ahead with CFI
00:07:13 <MattChan> ... narrowing down use-cases to identify how specific we have to be in turning CFI into something human readable
00:07:17 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1652
00:07:29 <MattChan> ... also taking CFI from IDPF space to WG note
00:07:40 <MattChan> ... that's the 2nd PR
00:07:54 <MattChan> ... it will make it easier to comment and track changes
00:08:07 <marisa> marisa has joined #epub
00:08:18 <MattChan> dauwhe: okay to merge now?
00:08:31 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, unless there is any reason not to
00:08:31 <marisa> present+
00:08:52 <MattChan> ... they are pretty harmless, just adding documentation to github
00:08:58 <dauwhe> q?
00:09:16 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1586
00:09:19 <MattChan> TOPIC: xpointer shorthand
00:09:33 <dlazin> dlazin has joined #epub
00:09:40 <dlazin> present+
00:09:41 <MattChan> dauwhe: this was about using xpointer shorthand as identifiers in MO spec
00:09:55 <MattChan> ... xpointer defines all sorts of different fragment identifier schemes
00:10:12 <MattChan> ... do any implementations of MO use anything other than HTML #id
00:10:18 <MattChan> marisa: not that I know
00:10:31 <MattChan> dauwhe: yes, that matches my experience too
00:10:49 <MattChan> marisa: the intention in MO was to say "refer to fragment identifier"
00:11:11 <MattChan> ... what happened was that that idea got formalized into xpointer shorthand
00:11:21 <MattChan> ... it was a suggestion from JP reviewers of epub 3
00:11:34 <MattChan> ... but intention was not changed
00:11:51 <MattChan> dauwhe: so we were trying to find a stable spec reference to reflect that concept
00:11:54 <MattChan> marisa: yes
00:12:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: and these were also more XML centric times
00:12:44 <MattChan> ... i think its worth exploring a simply way of expressing this without misleading authors that they can use anything in xpointer
00:13:01 <MattChan> marisa: yes. I think encouraging ease of use will increase adoption
00:13:44 <MattChan> dauwhe: when Microsoft was trying to implement epub in Edge, they had questions about this use of xpointer too
00:14:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: was there a MO test in the old epubtest?
00:14:25 <MattChan> marisa: yes, it was massive and hard to pass test
00:14:33 <MattChan> ... but that old site isn't really up to date
00:14:53 <MattChan> dauwhe: but i think there are quite a few implementations of MO
00:15:08 <MattChan> ... but this is enough info to move forward on the issue
00:15:33 <MattChan> ... I'll assign myself to find a better spec reference for what we are trying to say about fragment identifiers
00:16:14 <dauwhe> q?
00:16:48 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1509
00:16:55 <MattChan> TOPIC: SHOULD for "valid language tags"
00:17:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: during i18n, we saw that some specs use SHOULD for validity of language tags
00:17:25 <MattChan> ... we don't say anything about validity
00:17:46 <MattChan> ... and we had a previous resolution to close issue without forcing validity
00:17:59 <MattChan> ... part of consideration was not increasing complexity for epubcheck
00:18:18 <MattChan> ... i also feel this will affect a diminishing number of epubs that have well formed yet invalid lang tags
00:18:25 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:18:28 <dauwhe> ack B
00:18:29 <MattChan> ... given that RS don't tend to do much that lang tag info anyway
00:18:38 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: can we clarify difference?
00:19:10 <MattChan> dauwhe: it follows the normal pattern e.g. en-US
00:19:32 <MattChan> ... qq-ZQ would also be well formed, if most likely invalid
00:19:36 <shiestyle> q+
00:19:41 <dauwhe> ack shi
00:19:55 <MattChan> shiestyle: if RS cannot recognize the tag, its still okay in many cases
00:20:05 <MattChan> ... so i think validation is not mandatory
00:20:22 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close issue 1509
00:20:24 <dauwhe> q?
00:20:30 <dauwhe> +1
00:20:31 <dlazin> +1
00:20:34 <shiestyle> +1
00:20:37 <wendyreid> +1
00:20:38 <MattChan> +1
00:20:59 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:21:00 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:21:08 <duga> +1
00:21:14 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue 1509
00:21:51 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1505
00:22:02 <MattChan> TOPIC: RS handling of non-arabic page numbers in pagelist
00:22:37 <MattChan> dauwhe: this came up because gregorio asking about rules for non-arabic page numbers
00:22:46 <MattChan> ... answer seemed to be that there are no rules
00:23:05 <MattChan> ... pagelist is just list of links, authors choose how to label those links
00:23:07 <duga> q+
00:23:14 <dauwhe> ack duga
00:23:27 <MattChan> ... issue discussion started to revolve around counter systems used around the world
00:23:36 <MattChan> ... but this seems like an aside
00:23:44 <MattChan> duga: also, we have no rules for arabic page numbers either
00:23:56 <MattChan> ... we have no rules for page numbers, period
00:24:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: maybe we could recommend that if RS choose to display numbers from pagelist, that RS should display the values chosen by author
00:24:33 <MattChan> ... e.g. where author has carefully chosen the type and sequence of page numbers
00:25:05 <MattChan> duga: agree (also, it seems obvious that RS shouldn't do stuff like that)
00:25:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: yes, and also, the original concern seems somewhat theoretical
00:26:08 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close issue 1505
00:26:12 <dauwhe> +1
00:26:13 <wendyreid> +1
00:26:14 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:26:14 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:26:15 <MattChan> +1
00:26:16 <duga> +1
00:26:16 <shiestyle> +1
00:26:17 <dlazin> +1
00:26:25 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue 1505
00:26:38 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1504
00:26:50 <MattChan> TOPIC: Handling gaps in pagelist
00:27:13 <MattChan> dauwhe: question of whether RS should interpolate between explicit page numbers if it encountered gaps
00:27:42 <MattChan> ... e.g. where an epub without page numbers was remediated by adding page references to only the first page of each chapter
00:28:26 <MattChan> ... if the RS even allowed a user to "go to" page and user entered in a number in one of the gaps
00:28:33 <MattChan> ... i would expect RS to say "page does not exist"
00:28:37 <duga> q+
00:28:41 <MattChan> ... interpolation does not seem a workable solution
00:28:45 <dauwhe> ack dug
00:29:11 <MattChan> duga: yes, that's what Google does
00:29:24 <MattChan> ... if you enter something that doesn't match a pagelist value, we don't go anywhere
00:29:50 <MattChan> ... if you enter a match, then we take you to the destination of the pagelist
00:30:18 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:30:24 <dauwhe> ack ben
00:30:44 <duga> q+
00:30:55 <dauwhe> ack dug
00:30:56 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: what about gregorio's question about guidance to authors to include pagelist link to all pages
00:31:31 <MattChan> duga: there might be pages in the print that are not in epub, blank pages, out of order pages (i.e. frontmatter moved to back)
00:31:49 <dauwhe> q?
00:31:53 <MattChan> ... numerous reasons for lack of 1-to-1 correspondence
00:32:20 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close issue 1504
00:32:22 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:32:23 <shiestyle> +1
00:32:23 <duga> +1
00:32:24 <dauwhe> +1
00:32:25 <wendyreid> +1
00:32:25 <MattChan> +1
00:32:26 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:32:34 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue 1504
00:33:06 <MattChan> dauwhe: some of this may be best practice for how to create pagelist, but that's outside scope of core spec
00:33:19 <shiestyle> q+
00:33:27 <MattChan> TOPIC: F2F Dates
00:33:30 <dauwhe> ack sh
00:33:49 <MattChan> shiestyle addresses JP members in Japanese
00:34:41 <MattChan> shiestyle: i just confirmed whether Voyager is using pagelist
00:34:52 <MattChan> ... i don't think many JP RS do
00:35:14 <MattChan> going back to F2F topic
00:35:28 <MattChan> wendyreid: we settled on may 27/28
00:35:37 <MattChan> ... we have only just started talking about the agenda
00:35:57 <MattChan> ... so please raise issues that are worthwhile for the whole group
00:36:20 <MattChan> ... they are a good opportunity for us to connect with other W3C WG for cross-over issues
00:36:26 <MattChan> ... e.g. the mini-apps WG
00:36:38 <MattChan> ... may invite them for at least part of one of the days
00:36:48 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Big-Issues-for-EPUB-3.3
00:36:55 <MattChan> ... our main agenda idea is to tackle the "list of issues"
00:37:16 <MattChan> ... e.g. the scripting meeting would probably be a F2F topic
00:37:28 <dlazin> q+
00:37:31 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:37:44 <MattChan> dlazin: i would like to talk about dark mode
00:38:11 <MattChan> ... this disproportionately affects epub, and is also widely implemented
00:38:31 <MattChan> dauwhe: also one of the most jarring thing in epub, often not well implemented
00:38:46 <MattChan> s/jarring thing/jarring things
00:39:10 <MattChan> wendyreid: please keep sending in agenda item ideas
00:39:23 <dauwhe> q?
00:39:29 <MattChan> dauwhe: F2F is also better for longer issues that don't fit well into the weekly 1hr format
00:39:46 <MattChan> wendyreid: so it'll be 2 three hour meetings, with breaks
00:40:04 <MattChan> ... one at this time slot, and with the next day being the other time slot
00:40:12 <MattChan> TOPIC: AOB?
00:41:31 <MattChan> dauwhe: okay, thanks everyone
00:41:43 <MattChan> ... see you all on github
00:43:42 <dauwhe> zakim, end meeting
00:43:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, MattChan, toshiakikoike, shiestyle, wendyreid, BenSchroeter, duga, marisa, dlazin
00:43:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:43:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:43:47 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:43:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:44:12 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: bye
00:44:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items