23:26:20 RRSAgent has joined #epub 23:26:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-epub-irc 23:26:22 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:26:23 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe 23:26:33 Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon 23:26:38 Chair: dauwhe 23:57:25 MattChan has joined #epub 23:57:44 wendyreid has joined #epub 23:57:55 dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Apr/0046.html 23:58:33 present+ 23:58:43 present+ 23:59:25 toshiakikoike has joined #epub 23:59:33 present+ 23:59:36 shiestyle has joined #epub 23:59:59 present+ 00:00:29 present+ 00:01:20 BenSchroeter has joined #epub 00:01:51 scribe+ 00:02:15 present+ 00:05:29 duga has joined #epub 00:05:31 TOPIC: TF updates 00:05:34 present+ 00:05:45 wendyreid: both TFs met this week 00:06:08 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1654 00:06:12 ... FXL TF talked about next steps for best practices, and for experiments 00:06:36 ... gpelligrino and I working on experiments 00:06:47 ... virtual locators TF discussed use-cases 00:06:51 ... moving ahead with CFI 00:07:13 ... narrowing down use-cases to identify how specific we have to be in turning CFI into something human readable 00:07:17 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1652 00:07:29 ... also taking CFI from IDPF space to WG note 00:07:40 ... that's the 2nd PR 00:07:54 ... it will make it easier to comment and track changes 00:08:07 marisa has joined #epub 00:08:18 dauwhe: okay to merge now? 00:08:31 wendyreid: yes, unless there is any reason not to 00:08:31 present+ 00:08:52 ... they are pretty harmless, just adding documentation to github 00:08:58 q? 00:09:16 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1586 00:09:19 TOPIC: xpointer shorthand 00:09:33 dlazin has joined #epub 00:09:40 present+ 00:09:41 dauwhe: this was about using xpointer shorthand as identifiers in MO spec 00:09:55 ... xpointer defines all sorts of different fragment identifier schemes 00:10:12 ... do any implementations of MO use anything other than HTML #id 00:10:18 marisa: not that I know 00:10:31 dauwhe: yes, that matches my experience too 00:10:49 marisa: the intention in MO was to say "refer to fragment identifier" 00:11:11 ... what happened was that that idea got formalized into xpointer shorthand 00:11:21 ... it was a suggestion from JP reviewers of epub 3 00:11:34 ... but intention was not changed 00:11:51 dauwhe: so we were trying to find a stable spec reference to reflect that concept 00:11:54 marisa: yes 00:12:03 dauwhe: and these were also more XML centric times 00:12:44 ... i think its worth exploring a simply way of expressing this without misleading authors that they can use anything in xpointer 00:13:01 marisa: yes. I think encouraging ease of use will increase adoption 00:13:44 dauwhe: when Microsoft was trying to implement epub in Edge, they had questions about this use of xpointer too 00:14:13 wendyreid: was there a MO test in the old epubtest? 00:14:25 marisa: yes, it was massive and hard to pass test 00:14:33 ... but that old site isn't really up to date 00:14:53 dauwhe: but i think there are quite a few implementations of MO 00:15:08 ... but this is enough info to move forward on the issue 00:15:33 ... I'll assign myself to find a better spec reference for what we are trying to say about fragment identifiers 00:16:14 q? 00:16:48 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1509 00:16:55 TOPIC: SHOULD for "valid language tags" 00:17:19 dauwhe: during i18n, we saw that some specs use SHOULD for validity of language tags 00:17:25 ... we don't say anything about validity 00:17:46 ... and we had a previous resolution to close issue without forcing validity 00:17:59 ... part of consideration was not increasing complexity for epubcheck 00:18:18 ... i also feel this will affect a diminishing number of epubs that have well formed yet invalid lang tags 00:18:25 q+ 00:18:28 ack B 00:18:29 ... given that RS don't tend to do much that lang tag info anyway 00:18:38 BenSchroeter: can we clarify difference? 00:19:10 dauwhe: it follows the normal pattern e.g. en-US 00:19:32 ... qq-ZQ would also be well formed, if most likely invalid 00:19:36 q+ 00:19:41 ack shi 00:19:55 shiestyle: if RS cannot recognize the tag, its still okay in many cases 00:20:05 ... so i think validation is not mandatory 00:20:22 Proposed: Close issue 1509 00:20:24 q? 00:20:30 +1 00:20:31 +1 00:20:34 +1 00:20:37 +1 00:20:38 +1 00:20:59 +1 00:21:00 +1 00:21:08 +1 00:21:14 Resolved: Close issue 1509 00:21:51 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1505 00:22:02 TOPIC: RS handling of non-arabic page numbers in pagelist 00:22:37 dauwhe: this came up because gregorio asking about rules for non-arabic page numbers 00:22:46 ... answer seemed to be that there are no rules 00:23:05 ... pagelist is just list of links, authors choose how to label those links 00:23:07 q+ 00:23:14 ack duga 00:23:27 ... issue discussion started to revolve around counter systems used around the world 00:23:36 ... but this seems like an aside 00:23:44 duga: also, we have no rules for arabic page numbers either 00:23:56 ... we have no rules for page numbers, period 00:24:19 dauwhe: maybe we could recommend that if RS choose to display numbers from pagelist, that RS should display the values chosen by author 00:24:33 ... e.g. where author has carefully chosen the type and sequence of page numbers 00:25:05 duga: agree (also, it seems obvious that RS shouldn't do stuff like that) 00:25:19 dauwhe: yes, and also, the original concern seems somewhat theoretical 00:26:08 Proposed: Close issue 1505 00:26:12 +1 00:26:13 +1 00:26:14 +1 00:26:14 +1 00:26:15 +1 00:26:16 +1 00:26:16 +1 00:26:17 +1 00:26:25 Resolved: Close issue 1505 00:26:38 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1504 00:26:50 TOPIC: Handling gaps in pagelist 00:27:13 dauwhe: question of whether RS should interpolate between explicit page numbers if it encountered gaps 00:27:42 ... e.g. where an epub without page numbers was remediated by adding page references to only the first page of each chapter 00:28:26 ... if the RS even allowed a user to "go to" page and user entered in a number in one of the gaps 00:28:33 ... i would expect RS to say "page does not exist" 00:28:37 q+ 00:28:41 ... interpolation does not seem a workable solution 00:28:45 ack dug 00:29:11 duga: yes, that's what Google does 00:29:24 ... if you enter something that doesn't match a pagelist value, we don't go anywhere 00:29:50 ... if you enter a match, then we take you to the destination of the pagelist 00:30:18 q+ 00:30:24 ack ben 00:30:44 q+ 00:30:55 ack dug 00:30:56 BenSchroeter: what about gregorio's question about guidance to authors to include pagelist link to all pages 00:31:31 duga: there might be pages in the print that are not in epub, blank pages, out of order pages (i.e. frontmatter moved to back) 00:31:49 q? 00:31:53 ... numerous reasons for lack of 1-to-1 correspondence 00:32:20 Proposed: Close issue 1504 00:32:22 +1 00:32:23 +1 00:32:23 +1 00:32:24 +1 00:32:25 +1 00:32:25 +1 00:32:26 +1 00:32:34 Resolved: Close issue 1504 00:33:06 dauwhe: some of this may be best practice for how to create pagelist, but that's outside scope of core spec 00:33:19 q+ 00:33:27 TOPIC: F2F Dates 00:33:30 ack sh 00:33:49 shiestyle addresses JP members in Japanese 00:34:41 shiestyle: i just confirmed whether Voyager is using pagelist 00:34:52 ... i don't think many JP RS do 00:35:14 going back to F2F topic 00:35:28 wendyreid: we settled on may 27/28 00:35:37 ... we have only just started talking about the agenda 00:35:57 ... so please raise issues that are worthwhile for the whole group 00:36:20 ... they are a good opportunity for us to connect with other W3C WG for cross-over issues 00:36:26 ... e.g. the mini-apps WG 00:36:38 ... may invite them for at least part of one of the days 00:36:48 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Big-Issues-for-EPUB-3.3 00:36:55 ... our main agenda idea is to tackle the "list of issues" 00:37:16 ... e.g. the scripting meeting would probably be a F2F topic 00:37:28 q+ 00:37:31 ack dl 00:37:44 dlazin: i would like to talk about dark mode 00:38:11 ... this disproportionately affects epub, and is also widely implemented 00:38:31 dauwhe: also one of the most jarring thing in epub, often not well implemented 00:38:46 s/jarring thing/jarring things 00:39:10 wendyreid: please keep sending in agenda item ideas 00:39:23 q? 00:39:29 dauwhe: F2F is also better for longer issues that don't fit well into the weekly 1hr format 00:39:46 wendyreid: so it'll be 2 three hour meetings, with breaks 00:40:04 ... one at this time slot, and with the next day being the other time slot 00:40:12 TOPIC: AOB? 00:41:31 dauwhe: okay, thanks everyone 00:41:43 ... see you all on github 00:43:42 zakim, end meeting 00:43:42 As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, MattChan, toshiakikoike, shiestyle, wendyreid, BenSchroeter, duga, marisa, dlazin 00:43:44 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 00:43:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-epub-minutes.html Zakim 00:43:47 I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 00:43:51 Zakim has left #epub 00:44:12 RRSAgent: bye 00:44:12 I see no action items