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15:50:11 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
15:50:32 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA Deep Dive - prohibited naming resolution
15:50:38 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
15:50:40 <jamesn> present+
15:51:00 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-aria-dive-minutes.html jamesn
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16:03:40 <jamesn> present+
16:03:46 <msumner> present+
16:04:31 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1449
16:04:47 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1449#discussioncomment-670281
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16:05:46 <carmacleod> present+
16:05:47 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:07:02 <jamesn> 1. We change the definition of "prohibited" under Accessible Name Calculation:
16:07:02 <jamesn> Change - "the element has no name" to "the element does not support name from author"
16:07:10 <Jemma> present+
16:07:38 <jamesn> joanie: How many folks are as immersed in this as aaron, scott and me?
16:07:39 <Jemma> +1 for change
16:07:55 <jamesn> joanie: in ARIA 1.2 we made a few changes that we need implemented
16:08:18 <jamesn> joanie: 1 change is that there is a list of roles where accessible name is prohibited... texty roles
16:08:45 <jamesn> "prohibited: the element has no name. Authors MUST NOT use the aria-label or aria-labelledby attributes to name the element."
16:09:01 <jamesn> joanie: changed the code, nuked the name, broke the universe
16:09:15 <jamesn> joanie: seemed to boil down to interactive generics
16:09:26 <jamesn> joanie: div with tabindex and div with contenteditable
16:09:48 <jamesn> joanie: oh great - maybe we don't have to test - as an authoring thing and the validators can do that
16:10:07 <jamesn> joanie: jamesn pointed out that other stuff in 1.2
16:13:52 <jamesn> jamesn: I do not see "User Agents MUST NOT expose an ARIA attribute to the platform accessibilty API when the element's computed role prohibits use of the attribute."
16:14:59 <jamesn> aaron: I ran into a name generic one - where it wasn't the authors stated role
16:15:46 <jamesn> aaron: for role presentation and role region, if there is no name then it not a region.
16:15:56 <jamesn> scott: was talking about aria-roledescription
16:16:37 <jamesn> aaron: we never really covered the computed role
16:16:46 <jamesn> jamesn: the 1.3 text does cover that
16:18:04 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1408/files
16:18:24 <jamesn> action: file a 1.3 issue for what to do with global properties that are prohibited on role none/presentation
16:19:47 <jamesn> jamesn: why did we introduce name prohibited
16:20:40 <jamesn> joanie: lets get resolution on the 1.2 issues
16:20:55 <jamesn> joanie: I don't have to test that because there is no prohibition
16:21:55 <jamesn> joanie: we should tripple check... 1.2 CR we have name prohibited and a list of roles....
16:22:00 <jamesn> joanie: Author MUST not
16:22:10 <jamesn> joanie: Also says "the element has no name"
16:22:15 <jamesn> what does that mean?
16:22:31 <jamesn> there are a bunch of tests that are failing
16:22:51 <jamesn> in terms of end users.... I don't think that a <p> with aria-label should have an accessible name
16:23:03 <jamesn> paragraphs that are non interactive - are they even nameable
16:23:23 <jamesn> scott: once focusable comes into the mix then nothing was getting exposed
16:23:44 <jamesn> melanie: I tell folks they are wrong if they do that
16:23:50 <jamesn> bryan: yes
16:24:09 <jamesn> joanie: if you are a good author... user agents try to make things suck a little bit less for end users
16:24:22 <jamesn> joanie: user agents are going to caluculate name from content
16:24:36 <jamesn> joanie: if a screen reader user tabs to it then have a nameless thing
16:24:43 <jamesn> joanie: try to correct
16:24:55 <jamesn> melanie: would it be possible to throw an error
16:25:00 <jamesn> q+
16:25:23 <jamesn> scott: have issues with how permissive html is
16:26:26 <jamesn> jamesn: have browsers ever considered standards compliant mode?
16:26:41 <jamesn> aaron: -1 2 different modes increase complexity
16:27:17 <jamesn> ack me
16:27:40 <jamesn> scott: The element has no name... we were primarily concerned about stopping authors from doing this
16:27:56 <jamesn> q+
16:28:13 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/985
16:29:15 <jamesn> jamesn: the accname change is the one that changes the naming calculation.
16:32:21 <jamesn> carmacleod: Joanie proposed change is clearer
16:32:46 <jamesn> scott: can we make that change without having to reenter CR
16:32:55 <jamesn> jamesn: Michael?
16:33:11 <jamesn> MichaelC: I don't see any reason not to
16:33:17 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/985/commits/c1a460307a845edc0759b41f1cd7bc7416bcc3ff
16:34:00 <jamesn> MichaelC: No need to re-enter CR
16:34:22 <Jemma> +1 this is editorial
16:34:34 <jamesn> scott: does this unblock you?
16:34:47 <carmacleod> +1 for changing "the element has no name" to "the element does not support name from author"
16:34:54 <jamesn> joanie: Authors MUST NOT statement is not in 1.2 CR - was added later, so I don't have to test that
16:34:59 <Jemma> + 1000
16:35:18 <jamesn> joanie: going to remove "the element has no name"
16:36:00 <jamesn> jamesn: nothing in the spec that prevents error correction
16:36:20 <jamesn> scott: didn't want to make it explicit at first
16:37:04 <jamesn> scott: can disuade authors from this antipattern
16:37:53 <jamesn> joanie: a reasonable implementation for non interactive, non contenteditable we don't aboide by aria-label but if interactive then user agent corrects
16:39:01 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/29-aria-dive-minutes.html jamesn
16:41:16 <msumner> q+
16:41:26 <jamesn> q-
16:41:36 <jamesn> ack m
16:44:23 <jamesn> q+
16:44:31 <jamesn> ack me
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