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14:59:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Meeting: PEWG
14:59:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Chair: Patrick H. Lauke
14:59:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9718517d-0e08-4377-bb7c-07332948233b/20210428T110000
14:59:56 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Scribe: Patrick_H_Lauke
15:00:04 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ Patrick_H_Lauke
15:00:34 <flackr> flackr has joined #pointerevents
15:01:36 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ smaug
15:01:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ flackr
15:03:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Topic: Review of "Add new section explaining coalesced and predicted events" https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/364
15:05:05 <mustaq> present+
15:07:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: thanks to all who looked at.
15:07:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: did everybody have sufficient time? Rob?
15:07:41 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [agree that this could do with another read-through as it's a large change]
15:08:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Action: review this PR for next meeting, ideally be able to merge it even before then if felt appropriate
15:08:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: would like to tackle the other big PR *after* this one is merged as it will need rebasing/merging into
15:08:47 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Topic: Major refactoring: refer to "direct manipulation" rather than "touch" https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/350
15:09:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: is it panning or scrolling
15:13:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: panning to me is "scrolling in direct manipulation" scenarios. we have a note somewhere that already says we use the terms interchangeably. my preference would be panning
15:13:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: but you changed all instances of panning to scrolling in the PR...
15:14:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: *blushes* clearly i'm confusing myself. but today my preference is panning. straw poll on people's preference?
15:14:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [consensus coalesces around "panning"]
15:15:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: i'll change the PR to stick to panning (and maybe sneak in extra expansion on where we explain that we treat the terms as synonymous)
15:17:13 <mustaq> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/350.html#glossary
15:17:16 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: do we want to review this now, or do people need more time to review on their own?
15:19:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: would like clarity on the glossary definition. The entry we had for direct manipulation - does this also include mouse or not?
15:19:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: yes IF the browser/OS treats the mouse as a direct manipulation device for panning/zooming
15:23:22 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: we'll leave this open again, please review on github. Would like to get this PR merged (like the other big one) before the next meeting in 2 weeks' time (or even earlier if we're happy with it). After that, few more stragglers like that one confusing sentence around "default behaviour", but easier to address AFTER these are merged
15:28:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [more discussion/question about "is mouse direct manipulation", and the fact that our new/redefined version avoids the topic altogether. touch-action only interested in filtering panning/zooming as a result of a direct manipulation ... not interested in any other concept like drag and drop etc]
15:28:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Action: review this PR before next meeting, ideally merge this before next meeting
15:29:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Topic: Clarify what the target of the click event should be after capturing pointer events https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/356
15:29:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: Olli already commented on this
15:29:38 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: we added some telemetry for this yesterday [in Firefox], no data yet. was something added in Chrome yet?
15:30:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: filed a bug internally, but not worked on it
15:30:33 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: if usage is higher than what we expect, we can't change and may have to adopt Chrome's model. otherwise, we could consider opting for this better behavior
15:31:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: and it shouldn't be difficult to change this. even if we do find explicit capture used often, will be a question of how often do you still get another ancestor handed to the event handler (to see if these scenarios would be affected by a change in behaviour)
15:31:54 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: maybe we could instrument that, as that's the only thing that matters - how often people rely on the target
15:33:26 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: [talks through the test case some more]
15:33:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: my intuition is that if an author captures on an element, they'll expect events to all go to that event
15:34:04 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: think we need some more data
15:34:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: let's get data and see how risky it is, but inclined to say that we consider the capture target to be the target where the click is going to go
15:34:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Action: leave open and gather more data, report next meeting
15:35:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: I can collect some data for next time
15:35:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: AOB?
15:35:50 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: I have an issue that came up from changing click to pointer event
15:37:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: we have active state. is "click" still active, or is the pointer not active just before the click is then dispatched
15:37:24 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: i think we already have incompatibility with certain implementations
15:39:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: i would expect if you process mouseup, then you send click in the same process. but yes there can be differences
15:39:31 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: [asks if it's spec'd anywhere that mouseup and then click should be synchronous]
15:39:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: i don't think it's specified anywhere, it could be in UI Events
15:42:31 <Patrick_H_Lauke> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#the-click-auxclick-and-contextmenu-events
15:42:40 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: do we care about pressure on click?
15:43:36 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: wouldn't pressure be the pressure of the last known good pointer event, which for pointerup would be close to zero as the finger (etc) is just about to leave the digitizer?
15:44:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: what would be good would be to have the highest pressure
15:44:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: *jokes* coalescedPressure list
15:45:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: so what would make sense in the click?
15:46:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: maybe we should just let web authors handle pressure in actual pointer* events and leave click alone
15:46:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: my gut feeling is that developer won't want to overload their click handling
15:48:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [group agrees the click should just keep all things like pressure as the default values, like when a pointer event is generated/initialised]
15:48:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: is there any action arising from this discussion? do we need to say anything more in https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#the-click-auxclick-and-contextmenu-events
15:48:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: no, don't think so, we can leave it as is
15:48:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: i'll have a look, see if maybe we can just make it super-explicit. but otherwise happy to leave as is
15:49:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: thank you all, please review PRs for next time, see you again in 2 weeks
15:49:31 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:49:36 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, create minutes
15:49:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
15:50:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, bye
15:50:06 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
15:50:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: review this PR for next meeting, ideally be able to merge it even before then if felt appropriate [1]
15:50:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-pointerevents-irc#T15-08-06
15:50:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: review this PR before next meeting, ideally merge this before next meeting [2]
15:50:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-pointerevents-irc#T15-28-49
15:50:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: leave open and gather more data, report next meeting [3]
15:50:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-pointerevents-irc#T15-34-57