13:34:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:34:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-irc
13:34:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:35:07 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:35:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:35:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:35:13 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2021
13:35:18 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:35:30 <agendabot> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Apr/0000.html
13:35:30 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:35:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:35:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:35:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:35:33 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:35:35 <agendabot> agenda+ CSS: Use of logical properties in examples
13:35:38 <agendabot> agenda+ String-meta "unnatural language text"
13:35:40 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:37:40 <addison> agenda+ geolocation 50 comment
13:53:02 <addison> present+
13:53:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:53:56 <addison> scribenick: addison
13:54:08 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:56:53 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
13:57:54 <addison> present+ Atsushi, JcK
13:58:35 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
14:00:58 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
14:01:24 <addison> present+ Richard
14:02:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:02:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:02:31 <addison> agenda?
14:02:47 <addison> present+ Bert
14:03:57 <Bert> scribe: Bert
14:04:17 <addison> agenda+ epub
14:04:25 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:04:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:26 <Bert> r12a: I suggest we appoint a scribe.
14:04:34 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:05:11 <addison> action-996?
14:05:12 <trackbot> action-996 -- Addison Phillips to Follow up with mark davis on liaison status and google participation -- due 2021-02-25 -- OPEN
14:05:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/996
14:05:42 <Bert> addison: I pinged Mark again. He is hopefully going to take up our case-folding issue soon.
14:05:57 <Bert> ... He wants to continue being our liaison.
14:06:12 <Bert> ... He made some suggestions for dealing with Google and this issue.
14:06:19 <Bert> ... So keep the action open.
14:06:28 <addison> action-1006?
14:06:28 <trackbot> action-1006 -- Richard Ishida to Reply to coga issue with a proposed note addition to the text -- due 2021-03-18 -- OPEN
14:06:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1006
14:06:32 <addison> close action-1006
14:06:32 <trackbot> Closed action-1006.
14:06:37 <Bert> r12a: That is done.
14:07:42 <addison> reopen action-1006
14:07:42 <trackbot> Re-opened action-1006.
14:07:42 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/162
14:07:43 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/246
14:07:51 <Bert> Discussion about who the action was for. Was it for Felix? So is it not done?
14:08:03 <Bert> xfq: Those two ^^ are related.
14:08:04 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248
14:08:26 <Bert> r12a: I replied to a similar one, I think, simialr to 162
14:08:47 <addison> s/simialr/similar/
14:08:52 <Bert> ... I can add a comment to 162.
14:08:59 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231
14:09:16 <Bert> xfq: r12a also replied to 231 ^^
14:09:30 <Bert> r12a: They all seem to be saying the same thing.
14:09:47 <Bert> xfq: Yes, different issues but about same things.
14:10:39 <Bert> r12a: Was I supposed to write the text? It wasn't clear from the minutes.
14:11:00 <Bert> ... I asked them to write the text, rather than write the text for them.
14:11:14 <Bert> addison: You could extra credit by writing the text. :-)
14:11:18 <addison> close action-1006
14:11:19 <trackbot> Closed action-1006.
14:11:46 <addison> action-1011?
14:11:46 <trackbot> action-1011 -- Addison Phillips to Send a note to google acrep asking for potential i18n support -- due 2021-04-01 -- OPEN
14:11:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1011
14:11:54 <Bert> r12a: Let's close the action. I'll keep the web page open and will add a comment. (But wondering if it should be Felix.)
14:12:11 <Bert> s/action/action-1006/
14:12:11 <addison> close action-1011
14:12:11 <trackbot> Closed action-1011.
14:12:21 <addison> action-1013?
14:12:21 <trackbot> action-1013 -- Addison Phillips to Comment on geolocation 50 about on going discussion of i18n on this topic -- due 2021-04-08 -- OPEN
14:12:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1013
14:12:50 <addison> close action-1013
14:12:50 <trackbot> Closed action-1013.
14:13:03 <Bert> addison: About error msg localisation, it's on the agenda. Marcos replied, but I haven't read it in depth.
14:13:31 <Bert> r12a: Marcos is really trying to help. We can let him off the hook.
14:13:51 <Bert> addison: I don't expect they will change the spec.
14:14:12 <Bert> r12a: They say they won't make substantive changes, aren't they?
14:14:38 <Bert> addison: Sometimes we have to ask for changes, though.
14:15:10 <Bert> r12a: At this stage they are just making editorial changes.
14:15:31 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:15:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:15:56 <Bert> addison: Anybody any info to share?
14:16:11 <Bert> Nobody has.
14:16:16 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:16:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:16:26 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:16:55 <Bert> addison: Cascading & Inheritance 4 & 5, anything left to do?
14:17:46 <addison> agenda?
14:17:54 <Bert> atsushi: Yes.
14:18:07 <Bert> addison: That's our agenda item 5.
14:18:26 <fsasaki> regrets+
14:18:26 <Bert> ...  Move it to completed?
14:18:37 <Bert> atsushi: Yes, should be OK to move.
14:19:05 <addison> agenda?
14:19:31 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:19:31 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- CSS: Use of logical properties in examples -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:19:43 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5570
14:20:03 <Bert> atsushi: (I'm looking through my email for the issues.)
14:20:21 <Bert> ... Fantasai wrote that level 3 won't change.
14:20:42 <Bert> ... But we may be able to delay it to level 4.
14:21:17 <Bert> addison: It seems our request is reasonable. We would need to make a new issue agains level 4 or 5.
14:21:46 <Bert> r12a: Looking... Maybe possible to use the same issue and just change the label.
14:22:06 <Bert> addison: r12a, do you chnage the labels?
14:22:22 <Bert> r12a: Yes, I can do that.
14:22:32 <addison> action: richard reopen csswg 5570 against cascade-4/5
14:22:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1014 - Reopen csswg 5570 against cascade-4/5 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-04-15].
14:22:40 <Bert> s/chnage/change
14:22:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:22:56 <addison> agenda?
14:23:25 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:23:25 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- geolocation 50 comment -- taken up [from addison]
14:23:42 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/geolocation-api/issues/50
14:24:20 <Bert> addison: There is not a lot here, but I call attention to my long note and Marcos's reply.
14:24:33 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#localization
14:24:34 <Bert> ... Should we write something into specdev for this?
14:24:49 <Bert> xfq: We already have a section about error messages, see ^^
14:25:17 <Bert> ... Maybe the section title can be made clearer.
14:25:23 <Bert> r12a: Sound like a good idea.
14:26:19 <Bert> xfq: The last few guidances in that section are relevant.
14:26:36 <Bert> addison: Should we extract anything as explanation?
14:26:49 <Bert> r12a: Yes, discuss it in specdev.
14:27:04 <addison> action: addison: harvest useful text from geolocation 50 for specdev
14:27:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1015 - Harvest useful text from geolocation 50 for specdev [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-15].
14:27:06 <Bert> addison: We were about to discuss it in the contet of string-meta.
14:27:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:27:30 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- String-meta "unnatural language text" -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:27:32 <Bert> r12a: We can write it in one and link from the other.
14:27:42 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#syntactic-content
14:28:00 <Bert> addison: I did some more editing on syntactic content.
14:28:12 <Bert> ... Based on our conversation last time.
14:28:28 <Bert> ... It has forward reference to the base example.
14:29:38 <Bert> Bert: Text is clear, heading was a bit hard to parse, to many nouns in a row.
14:29:47 <Bert> s/to/too/
14:30:12 <Bert> addison: r12a suggested mentionoing the words data and values.
14:30:43 <Bert> r12a: I'm not sure, in the 4th para, if all of those strings are syntactic.
14:31:11 <Bert> ... We might be shooting ourselves in the foot a bit.
14:31:35 <Bert> addison: You might indeed want to bidi-isolate them, but they are still identifiers.
14:31:49 <Bert> r12a: Isolation might not be enough.
14:32:16 <Bert> addison: And set direction to ltr, because there may be a strong directional letter.
14:32:32 <addison> HEBREW HERE YOUR BOOK IS <span dir=auto>978-1234666666</span> <!-- all rtl -->
14:32:52 <Bert> r12a: E.g., a publication date might be in Japanese and need an appropriate font.
14:33:21 <Bert> addison: The date is in ISO format.
14:34:33 <Bert> ... People use JSON-LD and other strings for data. They don't need lang or dir there.
14:34:44 <addison> Content-Type: text/html
14:35:28 <Bert> r12a: Yes, because those things are part of the syntax, but is a date also part of the syntax?
14:35:48 <addison> pubDate: "2021-07-15T14:00:00Z"
14:36:04 <Bert> addison: Look at the example. It is a value in some data structure.
14:37:15 <Bert> r12a: Yes, but you don't say that in the text. It might be that the ISO date is just one example of a date and people could have use a different representation, rather than a syntactic requirement to use an ISO date.
14:37:28 <Bert> ... I suggest we clarify that.
14:37:42 <Bert> ... And ISBN?
14:38:26 <Bert> addison: It is a identifier, and of couese you do need some care in presenting it. Take a MAC address, e.g.
14:38:42 <Bert> r12a: So how do you prevent pieces from being swapped?
14:39:18 <Bert> addison: Probably need to set dir=ltr, "auto" might nor work, when there are no strongs.
14:39:26 <Bert> s/nor /not /
14:39:47 <Bert> addison: IP addresses and phone numbers are other examples.
14:40:10 <Bert> ... You need dir when displaying them.
14:40:38 <Bert> r12a: I'm not clear whether we have looked into all the ins and outs.
14:41:27 <Bert> addison: I think it is important we collectively have an idea what to recommenda and how to recomments.
14:41:47 <Bert> ... If I haven't expressed it well enough yet, that is not good.
14:42:14 <Bert> ... Are there other things we should say in this text?
14:42:20 <Bert> r12a: I don't know.
14:42:32 <Bert> addison: Obviously I need to clarify that para.
14:42:41 <Bert> ... Want to think about it for a week?
14:42:44 <Bert> r12a: Yes.
14:43:09 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:43:09 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- epub -- taken up [from addison]
14:43:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:43:27 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1353
14:43:28 <Bert> xfq: I have 3 pending issues
14:43:51 <Bert> ... Encoding of CSS files (1353).
14:44:26 <Bert> ... Why is UTF-16 mentioned (in addition to UTF-8) there?
14:44:43 <Bert> addison: Is that the sole mention of utf-16 in CSS for epub?
14:44:56 <Bert> xfq: Yes, this is the only sentence.
14:44:59 <xfq> > It MUST be encoded in UTF-8 or UTF-16 [Unicode].
14:45:27 <Bert> r12a: Maybe they can refer to the encoding standard instead of Unicode. And take out utf-16.
14:45:49 <Bert> addison: The question is why they mention utf-16. Are there books encoded in it?
14:46:22 <Bert> ... I second r12a's suggestion of referring to Encoding standard.
14:46:52 <Bert> r12a: We can ask the question and see what they say. And depending on the answer we can suggest referring to Encoding.
14:47:06 <Bert> addison: Do that in a second issue?
14:47:31 <Bert> atsushi: There is a legacy encoding section.
14:48:08 <Bert> r12a: The Encoding spec says explicitly to not use anything else than utf-8.
14:48:12 <xfq> https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
14:48:37 <Bert> addison: It defines the other encodings as well, but indeed says to not use them.
14:49:36 <Bert> addison: So objections to forwarding this issue to them?
14:49:46 <Bert> xfq: With label needs-resolution?
14:49:51 <atsushi> +1
14:49:51 <Bert> addison: Absolutely.
14:49:54 <Bert> +1
14:50:04 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1354
14:50:09 <Bert> s/+1/<Bert> +1
14:50:49 <Bert> xfq: 2nd issue is 1354, limit of file name to 255 bytes.
14:51:37 <Bert> ... They also say file names must be unique after case normalization, but not clear what normalization they mean.
14:51:59 <Bert> addison: That seems to call for a separate issue.
14:52:14 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-container-filenames
14:53:06 <Bert> addison: They have *two* restrictions on the file name. And they say the file name is utf-8, but they don't say anything about path name.
14:54:34 <Bert> JcK: [missed]
14:54:54 <Bert> addison: They also exclude the emoji flags. They try to make it file system safe.
14:55:11 <Bert> JcK: I understand that, but nthey're not getting it right.
14:55:54 <Bert> r12a: Typo U+FDDO instead of U+FDD0 (Oh instead of zero)
14:56:56 <Bert> ... The U+FDD0 … U+FDEF is indeed unassigned, but why not other unassigned blocks?
14:57:10 <Bert> addison: And unassigned now mey become assigned later.
14:57:59 <Bert> s/mey/may/
14:58:02 <r12a> s/unassigned blocks/unassigned characters in other blocks/
14:58:17 <Bert> addison: So it is a whole raft of issues...
14:58:28 <xfq> atsushi: U+1FFFFF might be a typo
14:58:29 <r12a> also U+1FFFFF is out of range
14:58:35 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1355
14:59:36 <Bert> xfq: In the reading system interface there is an object for the name of the reading system. I want to ask if it the name is meant for human reading.
15:00:02 <Bert> s/it the/the/
15:01:18 <Bert> addison: Indeed not clear if it is an identifer or text.
15:01:52 <Bert> ... You should split the file name issue into several issues and raise them all.
15:02:07 <Bert> ... case-normalization should refer to charmod.
15:02:22 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
15:02:27 <Bert> r12a: The two typos can be together in one issue.
15:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:03:10 <Bert> xfq: And the language meta data issue?
15:03:27 <Bert> addison: Yes, we should engage in that discussion.
15:03:46 <r12a> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3699#issuecomment-815867601
15:04:06 <Bert> r12a: Different topic: Shadow DOM and inheritance of directionality. See ^^
15:05:41 <Bert> addison: Direction also depends on base direction. Cannot answer from the fragment alone. It is an example I use.
15:06:33 <Bert> r12a: And with a hyphen instead of a space? It can do different things, depending on the character before it.
15:07:31 <Bert> Addison shows an example on his screen.
15:08:58 <Bert> "123 456" vs "123-456" when they follow a Hebrew character or not.
15:10:15 <Bert> The 456 may end up to the left of the 123. Same with "123@456" and "123~456".
15:14:13 <Bert> "123-456" (with a hyphen-minus) keeps the 123 to the left of 456, while "123 456" (with space or @ or ~ or some others) puts 456 on the left.
15:15:03 <Bert> addison: Should we make this issue an agenda item next week?
15:16:33 <Bert> ... We should read the issue thread. Are they reinventing dir?
15:17:03 <addison> (for next time)
15:17:10 <xfq> s/reinventing dir/reinventing bidi/
15:17:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:17:49 <addison> zakim, who is here?
15:17:49 <Zakim> Present: addison, Atsushi, JcK, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert
15:17:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see addison, fsasaki, JcK, Zakim, RRSAgent, r12a, atsushi, Bert, fantasai, bigbluehat, florian, agendabot, hadleybeeman, hsivonen, Mek_, astearns, cwilso, sangwhan,
15:17:51 <Zakim> ... cbiesinger, koji, trackbot
15:18:00 <addison> zakim, bye
15:18:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been addison, Atsushi, JcK, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert
15:18:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n