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18:39:48 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
18:39:56 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
18:40:06 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
18:40:10 <Matt_King> present+
18:40:15 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:40:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
19:01:45 <alflennik> alflennik has joined #aria-at
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19:05:03 <s3ththompson> present+
19:07:04 <marie_s> present+
19:07:06 <alflennik> present+
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19:07:36 <jesdaigle> present+
19:07:40 <Matt_King> present+ sina
19:07:48 <Matt_King> present+ James_Schoels
19:07:56 <Matt_King> Present+ Hadi
19:08:22 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Next patterns to write tests for
19:09:07 <Matt_King> JS: Few weeks ago developed a list of patterns, and we've finished the ones we can wrk on at this time.
19:09:29 <Matt_King> Done with buttons, started horizontal slider, nav tree under review.
19:09:39 <Matt_King> blocked on other items on list b/c they are getting updated.
19:09:47 <Matt_King> includes vertical sliders
19:11:12 <Matt_King> Are there others we should avoid.
19:11:26 <Matt_King> Or should PAC make a list of suggestions.
19:11:36 <Matt_King> MK: not aware of any to avoid.
19:11:50 <Matt_King> Hadi: why we call simple button a command button.
19:12:32 <Matt_King> js: to distinguish between toggle and simple, steering clear of just button which has multiple examples.
19:24:57 <Matt_King> JS: Propose alert, alertDialog, and breadcrumb can start now.
19:25:12 <Matt_King> We can work through the list from the top alphabetically.
19:25:29 <Matt_King> MK: Propose we discuss which patterns at start of meetig each week
19:25:57 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Test Format
19:26:32 <Matt_King> js: Deep dive based on initial proposal that Bocoup put together
19:26:55 <Matt_King> This is what we call hybrid format, supporting both manual and automated testing.
19:27:31 <Matt_King> Added list of issues that need to be addressed by the format proposal to the agenda, probably can't deep dive into each issue today.
19:28:03 <Matt_King> Seth: start by talking about the proposal details. We have identified numerous dependent issues and a few subtopics.
19:28:15 <Matt_King> Including what data is in the test and how it is encoded.
19:28:31 <Matt_King> Want to have a phased approach to updating existing tests.
19:28:46 <Matt_King> Start with overview of proposal.
19:29:38 <Matt_King> Want to understand how this is coming across, how understandable, or need additional detail? Do we need to break it apart into more digestable pices.
19:29:55 <Matt_King> Both an encoding format and content spec.
19:30:13 <Matt_King> Currently have a few csv files that reference each other.
19:30:35 <Matt_King> They generate a bunch a bunch of html files that embed data into json
19:31:17 <Matt_King> Bit question is how we can make info in csv tables encode the same meaning for manual test writing but also accomodate more info needed by an automated runner.
19:33:35 <Matt_King> Current format has a csv file called tests.csv that includes 3 key things: instructions for humans, machine readable kb commands (referenced by an ID in commands.csv), and seies of assertionswhich are stated in natural language for a human to understand.
19:34:47 <Matt_King> What part of this format breaks if tyring to have a machine run the tests?
19:34:57 <Matt_King> s/tyring/trying/
19:35:25 <Matt_King> Assertions need to become some sort of pseudo code for a machine.
19:36:10 <Matt_King> js: the machine does not need to know anything about the intent of the test.
19:36:49 <Matt_King> it needs to know to press x to jump to checkbox. It needs to know what key to press, but it does not need to know intent.
19:38:28 <Matt_King> Seth: Let me back up and make my observation more generic. Where test format has separate human andmachine readable content, our goal is to differentiate between a part that the human needs to read and a part that machine needs to consume or parts that could be both.
19:39:25 <Matt_King> Yes, the the machine does not need to know the purpose of the command, but there is some benefit to standardizing on a syntax that can be used consistently for all the info in the table.
19:40:30 <Matt_King> One of the big changes in proposal is that we are thinking about merging instructions, commands, and assertions into a single element.
19:43:33 <Matt_King> js: not understanding why the assertions need to be machine readable. The human assertions can each by matches to a given output.
19:44:04 <Matt_King> How would we templatize something like "presence of autocomplete is conveyed.
19:44:35 <Matt_King> Theoutput is what determines what passes or fails. We can state good output.
19:46:31 <Matt_King> I don't think the tests list should be responsible for listing all the ways to achieve a given output. There are a lot of ways to get a given result, e.g., speak a checkbox.
19:46:51 <Matt_King> Seth: recognize this is a departure that comes with a cost.
19:47:11 <Matt_King> Want Alex to give some toughts on this?
19:47:43 <Matt_King> Alex: Talking what each cell might look like in a row of the csv.
19:47:59 <Matt_King> Want to describe accurately without getting muddled in details.
19:48:25 <Matt_King> When we say Press:X, that doesn't have to be a specific key. X could be a list of commands.
19:48:52 <Matt_King> Sina: what is the overarching problem we are tyring to solve.
19:50:33 <Matt_King> mk: Do I understand right that X could be a command that represents in kind or amount of input?
19:50:49 <Matt_King> Alex: yes
19:51:06 <Matt_King> JS, Sina : that helps
19:52:11 <Matt_King> Sina: Is it the case that most of the time we expect the speech output for a variety of similar commands, e.g., x, f, tab to go to checkbox, to result the same output.
19:52:17 <Matt_King> JS: no
20:00:05 <Matt_King> So, the 2 variables that most often effect output are AT and mode
20:00:22 <Matt_King> Sina: What are the problems not being solved here?
20:00:48 <Matt_King> James: templatized reusable assertions
20:07:12 <Matt_King> js: Think we need iterative approach to the problems that addresses some of our immediate needs to make test writing easier and more understandable.
20:07:27 <Matt_King> that could add more understanding to the conversation.
20:07:35 <Matt_King> mk: seems like we need a workshop of some kind.
20:08:06 <Matt_King> Seth: agree, le't cut meeting here. sounds like we need a slightly different approach to making decisions, maybe a workshop.
20:08:40 <Matt_King> Sina: we have a known list of simple changes, workshop can move forward from that point.
20:08:52 <Matt_King> Seth: sounds good, we don't need to use workshop time on that.
20:09:27 <Matt_King> js: Before workshop, put together some simple examples, and propose how it would look in the end
20:10:01 <Matt_King> Seth: did try to show before and after but maybe tring to make moves that were too big
20:10:12 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:10:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
20:11:20 <Matt_King> Seth: great feedback; we'll be in touch about next steps.
20:11:26 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:11:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
20:11:30 <Matt_King> zakim, bye
20:11:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, s3ththompson, marie_s, alflennik, jesdaigle, sina, James_Schoels, Hadi
20:11:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:11:42 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:11:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King