IRC log of aria-apg on 2021-04-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:55:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/06-aria-apg-irc
17:55:24 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make log public
17:55:36 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:55:43 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Matt King
17:55:52 [Matt_King]
present+
17:55:58 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:58:45 [Jemma]
Present+
17:59:49 [MarkMccCrthy]
MarkMccCrthy has joined #aria-apg
17:59:57 [jongund]
jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:00:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg
18:01:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
regrets+ carmacleod
18:01:40 [sarah_higley]
sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
18:04:51 [sarah_higley]
present+
18:05:35 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:05:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
18:05:47 [CurtBellew]
CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
18:06:01 [siri]
siri has joined #aria-apg
18:06:32 [jongund]
scribe: jongund
18:07:16 [jongund]
MK: Let's get started
18:07:37 [jongund]
MK: Introducing James Scholes
18:07:38 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:08:08 [jongund]
JS: I am director of accessibility and working on test writing for aria-at project
18:08:19 [jongund]
MK: We need more discussion about the fan slider
18:08:38 [jongund]
MK: for the first, we have disclosure and checkboxes
18:08:46 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-6%2C-2021-Agenda
18:09:02 [jongund]
MK: Updated the pages with the review requests
18:09:26 [jongund]
MK: No meeting next week
18:09:58 [jongund]
MK: I will take some time in the next week
18:10:17 [Jemma]
git hub issue 31814, #1802, #1801
18:10:19 [jongund]
MK: I hope to finish my reviews before I leave
18:10:32 [Jemma]
s/31814/#1814
18:10:45 [jongund]
MM: I am at a conference this week, I can do next week
18:10:55 [jongund]
Siri: I can help
18:11:07 [jongund]
MK: You can use the time for this meeting next week
18:11:22 [jongund]
JK: I missed the last meeting about this topic
18:11:35 [jongund]
MK: We are going to do 1709 first
18:11:49 [Jemma]
#1709 - code review by Sarah
18:11:56 [jongund]
MK: Sara said she could review, I just sent a request
18:12:13 [jongund]
MK: The documentation for the index does not seem to be in the wiki
18:12:30 [jongund]
MK: JG had some comments in the original pull request
18:12:58 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1709#issuecomment-814310037
18:13:15 [jongund]
MK: JG dig up information on the index and add it to the infrastructure wiki page
18:13:21 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/APG-Infrastructure
18:14:37 [jongund]
JG: Let's leave 1607 there for now
18:14:52 [jongund]
MK: It would be helpful to get this soon
18:15:00 [jongund]
SH: I can look at it after the meeting
18:16:03 [Jemma]
"Jump to" feature to apg
18:16:27 [Jemma]
PR #1635
18:16:30 [jongund]
MK: The jump to index code, you were going to update the menu
18:16:51 [jongund]
MK: Add to example.js will get it on any example
18:17:15 [jongund]
JG: I will add it to examples.js, that touches less files
18:17:23 [Jemma]
Topic: Slider
18:17:28 [jongund]
TOPIC: Sliders
18:17:40 [jongund]
MK: Thermostat/fan slider example
18:17:47 [jongund]
MK: 1755
18:17:51 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1755
18:18:04 [jongund]
MK: I would like to summarize and JS can correct me
18:18:47 [jongund]
MK: In the first iteration we had off. low, medium and high were coded as buttons
18:19:12 [jongund]
MK: JG said the labels were clickable, like on a button
18:19:59 [jongund]
MK: Similar to how labels work in HTML, and touch interfaces allow touch to activate
18:20:05 [Jemma]
James Scholes comment - https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1755#issuecomment-805166451
18:20:24 [jongund]
MK: But we maybe violating WCAG requirements
18:21:03 [jongund]
JS: WCAG is open to interpretation, basically our concern about using the labels for changing the value
18:21:48 [jongund]
JS: The other thing that happens, regardless the focus moves to the control if you click on a label
18:22:33 [jongund]
JS: HTML labels are one-to-one, and in this example there are four items that relate to a single component
18:22:50 [jongund]
JS: The labels are after, not before in the DOM
18:23:23 [jongund]
JS: There is an equity issue
18:23:31 [jamesn]
q+
18:23:54 [jongund]
SH: Why is difference between using HTML labels and these as labels, here is the same as HTML
18:25:07 [jongund]
JS: The issue I have, is SR fire focus, the slider receives focus, if I press enter on one of the labels, the slider already has focus, so the SR doesn't tell me it has focus
18:25:19 [jongund]
SH: Is that different than HTML
18:25:54 [jongund]
JS: In some cases the arrow is collapsed, so there is some reduction in the duplication
18:26:20 [jongund]
JS: The slider already has an accessible name and they are not the values
18:26:43 [jongund]
MK: The labels in the slider is they are identifying a value
18:27:04 [jongund]
MK: There is no state change value...
18:27:22 [jongund]
MK: Off, low, medium and high are labeling values, not the control
18:27:55 [jongund]
Siri: I can only change with the value with the mouse, not the keyboard
18:28:19 [jongund]
MK: A lot of people turn on or off clickable
18:28:35 [jongund]
MK: If you are using voice over on the mac, you may use touch
18:28:57 [jongund]
MK: The sighted SR user may see them and clide on them and expect to hear something useful
18:29:11 [jongund]
MK: it feels like there are several paths forward
18:29:30 [jongund]
MK: Maybe there are some SR expectation on value changes
18:29:59 [jongund]
MK: This is an anti-pattern, from an ARIA perspective, that it should be coded as a radio group
18:30:09 [jamesn]
q?
18:30:13 [jongund]
KS: Or a select box
18:30:43 [jongund]
JS: The point that type range with aria-value text
18:31:01 [jongund]
MK: You can use this example with SR
18:31:17 [jongund]
JN: They have fixed it in Safari/VO
18:32:06 [jongund]
JN: in order to resolve this just change the clickable area on the rail
18:32:37 [jongund]
SH: I think radio is a better choice
18:32:56 [siri]
+1 James
18:33:00 [jongund]
JNL It still looks like a slider, not a radio
18:33:27 [jongund]
MK: Do designers, do slider with values, or is this something we should dicourage
18:33:47 [jongund]
JS: Sliders are for ranges
18:34:04 [jongund]
JS: For example a range of dates
18:34:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/JNL It /JN: It
18:34:47 [jongund]
MK: You can't do medium and half, is this something that we should not be an example
18:35:03 [jongund]
SH: Something with valuetext is good
18:35:24 [jongund]
MK: When they are numbers they are awful
18:35:37 [jongund]
JS: This is an opportunity not to demonstrate
18:35:59 [jongund]
MK: ! hour 5 minutes, instead of 65 minutes
18:36:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/MK: ! h/MK: 1 h
18:36:19 [jongund]
SH: I like the minutes and seconds
18:36:30 [jongund]
JS: Chapters ion a pod cast
18:37:05 [jongund]
MK: As we are providing guidance, some patterns we provide information about when to use slider versus, radio versus spin button
18:37:27 [jongund]
MK: The temperature use valuetext?
18:37:35 [jongund]
JG: Yes it does
18:37:48 [jongund]
MK: It just adds a word to the end
18:38:08 [jongund]
SH: Remove the fan and add a time
18:39:03 [jongund]
MK: So we have three slider examples, first is the simplest, color picker, no value text
18:39:06 [jamesn]
ack me
18:39:30 [jongund]
ML: We have this one, role is on g element and it uses valuetext
18:39:51 [jongund]
MK: The multithumb has aria orientation
18:40:14 [jongund]
MK: If we a e looking at a video slider scrubber, four examples is overkill
18:40:29 [jongund]
JS: If you have volume and seek
18:40:48 [jongund]
MKL Change to video player control from thermostat
18:41:01 [jongund]
MK: I don't think the SVG aspect...
18:41:25 [jongund]
MK: Maybe change to volume and play position, we could get past this
18:41:39 [jongund]
MK: I am still wondering about what JN said earlier
18:42:26 [jongund]
MK: If we don't have off, low, meidum and high example, are we causing a problem that when people do this they won't have a model, or write something about not doing this
18:42:35 [jongund]
JS: I would go for the second option
18:43:30 [jongund]
SH: I like the advice box
18:44:06 [jongund]
MK: We should change one o the radios to something that looks like a sider, but use radio
18:44:14 [jamesn]
q+
18:44:16 [jongund]
JS: That sounds great
18:45:07 [jongund]
MK: When you have a limited number of predefined values, we should not hide them
18:45:48 [jongund]
JS: They are information, we give you a huge number of values, and information on min and max, in this example the labels are the values
18:45:58 [jamesn]
q?
18:46:05 [jongund]
JK: column bar and seek bar
18:46:47 [jongund]
JK: Muddy the water if something that looks like a slider, but is a radio button
18:46:58 [jongund]
JK: Maybe confusing to teach
18:47:22 [jongund]
JS: If people can choose between predefined values, slider is not a good choice
18:47:46 [jongund]
JS: radio is good for online surveys that are all over the web
18:48:14 [jongund]
JS: If the in between states do not apply it should be a radio button
18:48:22 [jongund]
JK: This is a slider example
18:50:19 [jongund]
JG: The proposal is to change example from thermostat to a volume, seek and a separete exampel for radio that looks like a slider, by modifying an existing example
18:51:03 [jongund]
SH: The example stars example with radio or slider
18:51:23 [jongund]
CB: That is a good example
18:51:35 [jongund]
JK: I want to make sure the example different
18:51:39 [jamesn]
ack me
18:51:44 [Jemma]
q?
18:51:44 [jongund]
JN: I am on the que
18:52:24 [jamesn]
ack me
18:52:25 [jongund]
JN: Can we increase the hit area for the thermostat for changing the value
18:52:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/separete exampel /separate example
18:52:54 [jongund]
MK: So if we are going to change we should include the change
18:53:16 [jongund]
JN: The hit area needs increasing
18:53:37 [jongund]
MK: Instead of having two sliders, why not just one
18:54:53 [jongund]
JG: In this example one slider has a continous range and the other descrete values
18:55:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/continous /continuous
18:56:25 [jongund]
JG: regression test are often more code than the examples
18:56:55 [jongund]
SH: I can help with regression tests
18:57:04 [jongund]
SH: I have a code pen example
18:57:36 [jongund]
SH: There are images with half stars
18:58:02 [siri]
Then it will become radio buttons
18:58:40 [jongund]
SH: I like the volume and seek control
18:59:10 [jongund]
JS: I am thinking have two example pages one for volume and seek
18:59:50 [jongund]
Siri: The radio for the stars will be confusing if you tab to it
19:00:33 [jongund]
JG: What is the visual accordance for sighted used for the rating examples
19:01:20 [jongund]
JG: What is the visual affordance?
19:02:00 [jongund]
MK: I like the example to differentiate function over form
19:02:39 [jongund]
Siri: How do you fill half a star with the mouse?
19:02:54 [jongund]
SH: That is a good question
19:03:12 [jongund]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:03:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/06-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund
19:03:30 [jongund]
MK: We are over and we have not arrived a solution
19:03:49 [jongund]
MK: We need to have an issue where we continue this conversation
19:03:57 [jongund]
JS: I can create the issue
19:04:44 [Jemma]
Resolution: James Scholes will complie the slider ideas and disucssion details in the github issue.
20:58:54 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:58:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
20:59:04 [Matt_King]
zakim, bye
20:59:04 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Jemma, sarah_higley, MarkMcCarthy, CurtBellew
20:59:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:59:16 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:59:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
20:59:37 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, bye
20:59:37 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items