16:26:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:26:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-irc
16:26:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:26:20 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:26:25 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:26:36 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:28:47 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Mar/0030.html
16:28:47 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:28:47 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/39qJPpY)
16:28:47 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3m4ptIh)
16:28:47 <agendabot> agenda+ [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/2PFjeP8)
16:28:47 <agendabot> agenda+ 1.2 PR - steps needed - testable statements
16:28:50 <agendabot> agenda+ 1.3 FPWD - steps needed
16:28:52 <agendabot> agenda+ privacy statement
16:28:55 <agendabot> agenda+ [onboarding](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1401)
16:28:57 <agendabot> agenda+ [Should all roles participate in the name calculation of ancestors in name from content (Step 2H)](https://github.com/w3c/accname/discussions/113)
16:29:01 <agendabot> agenda+ [1.3 triage](https://bit.ly/3fqdweL)
16:29:03 <agendabot> agenda+ - - - - -
16:29:05 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria) ([  View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar))
16:29:09 <agendabot> agenda+ - - - - -
16:29:11 <jamesn> agenda- 10
16:29:14 <jamesn> agenda- 11
16:29:17 <jamesn> agenda- 12
16:29:25 <jamesn> agenda?
16:53:16 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger MelanieSumner
16:59:17 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
16:59:26 <StefanS> present+
17:01:01 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:01:40 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:03:17 <jamesn> regrets+ CarolynMacLeod
17:03:22 <jamesn> present+
17:03:40 <jcraig> present+
17:03:44 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:04:03 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:04:03 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/39qJPpY) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:20 <Jemma> regret+
17:04:20 <sarah_higley> present+
17:04:42 <jcraig> Consider ARIA role for draggable resize handles https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1443
17:05:03 <jcraig> proposed closing based on #432
17:05:08 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/432
17:05:34 <jcraig> no opposition
17:06:38 <jcraig> closing... if objections, comment or reopen.
17:06:41 <jcraig> Step F "if the current node's role allows name from content" should only apply to the root node https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/120
17:08:27 <jcraig> jamesn: Bryan, is this for 1.2?
17:08:48 <jcraig> Bryan: not sure... leave untriaged for now.
17:09:12 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1441 leave. in 1.3
17:09:36 <jcraig> jamesn: Sarah https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440 1.4?
17:10:07 <jcraig>  sarah_higley: sure.
17:10:13 <Jory> Jory has joined #aria
17:11:31 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:11:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3m4ptIh) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:24 <jcraig>  reviewers for https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1445 Carolyn, James C, James N
17:14:01 <jamesn> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#typemapping
17:15:19 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1439 add link to type mappings
17:15:52 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1438
17:16:08 <jcraig> jamesn: on Sarah. leave for now...
17:17:25 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1439 jamesn will merge
17:17:36 <jcraig> action: jamesn will merge https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1439
17:17:46 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:17:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/2PFjeP8) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:46 <jcraig> s/on Sarah. leave for now.../on Sarah. leave for now... will add a deep dive topic/
17:20:12 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:20:29 <jcraig> deep dive topics.. possible dataviz?
17:20:52 <jcraig> s/deep dive topics.. possible dataviz?/jamesn: deep dive topics.. possible dataviz?/
17:21:13 <jcraig> jcraig: apple has a lot of accessible dataviz entries
17:21:56 <jcraig> .
17:22:09 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:22:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 1.2 PR - steps needed - testable statements -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:45 <jcraig> jamesn: how can we help?
17:22:56 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/1.2-Non-editorial-features-and-other-changes
17:23:11 <jcraig> joanie: when through these items... written locally, but have some questions:
17:23:34 <jcraig> one specific test question before the request:
17:23:38 <joanie> Do we expect implementations to change to check for this and stop exposure? (If so, some user agents might give pushback. If we don’t expect this, then what is there to test? If it’s validators, that is outside the scope of WPT.)
17:24:13 <jcraig> q+
17:25:00 <jcraig> joanie: does this fall under the category of validators to flag? or are we demanding UAs change?
17:25:54 <jcraig> jamesn: IIRC, for non-global attrs, spec says must not expose
17:26:25 <joanie> q+
17:27:08 <jcraig> ack me
17:28:37 <jamesn> "User agents MUST ignore non-global states and properties used on an element without a role supporting the state or property; either defined as an explicit WAI-ARIA role, or as defined by the host language WAI-ARIA semantic matching an appropriate WAI-ARIA role. For example, the aria-valuetext attribute may be used on a progressbar."
17:28:49 <jamesn> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#state_property_processing
17:29:15 <jcraig>  I think it's reasonable for Firefox to expose DOM properties like all aria-* attrs. as long as they don't expose it to the non-aria parts of the tree, e.g. not a SELECTED prop on an element that doesn't supports aria-checked, but okay to expose the raw DOM attr aria-checked
17:29:30 <jcraig> s/I think it's reasonable/jcraig: I think it's reasonable/
17:30:24 <jcraig> action: joanie to write a test and discuss with Mozilla
17:32:45 <jcraig> several were deprecated as globals... test should be N/A, correct?
17:33:21 <jcraig> s/several/joanie: several/
17:34:38 <jcraig> [scribe apologies. fighting with client UI updates instead of scribing]
17:35:16 <jcraig> joanie: using core AAM to test ARIA... don't have a better way to get a platform-agnostic role or prop
17:36:24 <jcraig> joanie: additionally for exit criteria we need these in core aam, so forced to duplicate some tests before landing in WPT
17:37:19 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:37:19 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jcraig
17:37:25 <jcraig> q
17:37:32 <jcraig> ack jo
17:37:35 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:37:35 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 1.3 FPWD - steps needed -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:38:21 <jcraig> jamesn: working through authoring practices for 1.3. should have FPWD after those?
17:39:38 <jcraig> struggling how to do aria-braillelabel and aria-brailleroledescription... don't want authors to use accidentally
17:39:56 <jcraig> "sld" example in spec
17:42:03 <jcraig> jcraig: braille short-hand should make sense in context... "btn" button commonly understood, but "sld" as slide would only be clear in the context of a web slide deck web app
17:43:12 <jcraig> jamesn: propose adding strong language advising against using them at all
17:43:38 <jcraig> action: jcraig to dig for recent "aria-braille*" thread and share the text
17:43:44 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy has joined #aria
17:43:46 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:43:46 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- privacy statement -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:36 <jcraig> jamesn: new draft
17:44:38 <jamesn> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria/jnurthen/issue1371/index.html#privacy-and-security-considerations
17:45:22 <jamesn> In accordance with Web Platform Design Principles, this specification provides no programatic interface to determine if information is being used by Assistive Technologies. However, this specificaton does allow an author to present different information to users of Assistive Technologies from the information available to users who do not use Assistive Technologies. This is possible using many features of the ARIA specification, just as this
17:45:22 <jamesn> is possible using many other parts of the web technology stack. This content disparity could be used as a device fingerprinting method for users of Assistive Technologies.
17:46:19 <jcraig> jcraig: seems reasonable... Sarah convinced me last week that "device fingerprinting" was okey to include
17:46:28 <jcraig> no objections to taking this to PING
17:46:57 <jcraig> action: jamesn to take privacy text to PNG
17:47:01 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:47:01 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [onboarding](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1401) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:47:32 <jamesn> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eOuxryD506tFc3ckGHclrluhJoCVvdb8FSLoTqaU8ZY/edit
17:47:33 <jcraig> Jemma was taking this item... she was creating a Google Doc (link?)
17:48:08 <jcraig> jamesn: please add to it as necessary
17:48:13 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:48:13 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- [Should all roles participate in the name calculation of ancestors in name from content (Step 2H)](https://github.com/w3c/accname/discussions/113) -- taken up [from
17:48:16 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:48:48 <jcraig> jamesn: joanie
17:49:28 <jcraig>  joanie: I am not a web author, but I think consensus is that this is an example of bad authoring....
17:49:57 <jcraig> discussed with Leventhal that acc
17:50:14 <jcraig> s/discussed with Leventhal that acc/confirmed with Leventhal/
17:50:55 <jcraig> Bryan: I agree this is a bad authoring practice... would not want to imply its acceptable b/c it causes so many issues
17:51:25 <jcraig> jamesn: should we add an author MUST NOT in accname or aria specs?
17:51:38 <jcraig> or UA MUST NOT?
17:52:22 <jcraig> jamesn: I linked in the issue discussion to a list of what roles the browser do or do not expose this for
17:52:37 <jcraig> s/browser/browsers/
17:52:58 <sarah_higley> q+
17:53:29 <jcraig> Bryan: no explicit rule against it , but generally not included
17:53:49 <jcraig> sarah_higley: how would this affect live regions?
17:54:30 <jcraig> would this cause a live region change and trigger an announcement?
17:55:53 <jcraig> Bryan: depends on the live region  re: aria-atomic/aria-relevant
17:56:11 <jcraig> s/would this /Bryan: would this /
17:56:24 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes?
17:56:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'make minutes'
17:56:34 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:58:46 <jcraig>  joanie: figure out consensus and comment in the issue https://github.com/w3c/accname/discussions/113
17:59:11 <jcraig> jamesn: browser consensus should be enough to change it in the spec
18:00:11 <jcraig> jamesn: need to look at whether "name from contents" is incorrect
18:01:06 <jcraig> Bryan: I have... depending on the role. safe to include static. ex: link includes img role or figure, or math
18:01:57 <jcraig> if it's a static element role (e.g. no link with child slider)
18:02:34 <jcraig> for example, link in HTML can contain table... if you don't allow name from content in table, those would not have a name
18:02:37 <jcraig> q+
18:02:46 <jcraig> ack sar
18:02:47 <sarah_higley> ack me
18:02:49 <jcraig> ack q+
18:03:58 <joanie> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/master:third_party/blink/renderer/modules/accessibility/ax_object.cc;l=5214
18:04:49 <jcraig> jcraig: spec should not disallow UAs from trying to make the most of bad authoring examples... Could have an authoring recommendation to not do something bad, but UAs need to work regardless
18:05:23 <jcraig> joanie: I think this works in Chrome, but not Firefox (verify scribe please?)
18:05:51 <joanie> Chrome does NOT descend a table for name from contents.
18:06:05 <jcraig> s/n Chrome, but not Firefox/n Firefox, but not Chrome/
18:06:19 <joanie> Firefox did not USED to descend a table for name from contents. I believe I was the one who changed that in Firefox.
18:07:03 <jcraig> jamesn: over time... need an action
18:07:33 <jcraig> action: Bryan to add to accname spec
18:08:02 <jcraig> rrsagent, ake minutes
18:08:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'ake minutes', jcraig.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:08:07 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:09:35 <jcraig> s/Jemma was taking this item... she was creating a Google Doc (link?)/jamesn: Jemma was taking this item... she was creating a Google Doc/
18:10:31 <jcraig> s/PING/PNG/g
18:13:14 <jcraig> s/apple has a lot of accessible dataviz entries/Apple platform has a lot of accessible dataviz functionality: chart summary, trend, outliers, indices, and audio graphs... Web API for this was on my to-do list... but I'm out next week. jamesn: okay no deep dive next week./
18:13:51 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:15:18 <jcraig> present+ BryanG
18:15:20 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:15:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:16:07 <jcraig> s/possible dataviz/possibly accessible dataviz/
18:16:12 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:16:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/01-aria-minutes.html jcraig