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17:50:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/30-aria-apg-irc
17:50:19 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:50:26 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
17:50:33 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
17:50:51 <Matt_King> present+
17:50:58 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:56:37 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg
17:56:40 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:56:55 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:04:21 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
18:04:30 <sarah_higley> present+
18:07:57 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:07:58 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
18:08:51 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
18:09:22 <jamesn> TOPIC: Address PR status
18:09:55 <jamesn> Matt_King: 1st 3 are lightweigfht fixes to examples
18:10:10 <MarkMcCarthy> s/lightweigfht /lightweight
18:10:21 <jamesn> Updated disclosure button for FAQ and Image Description examples by jongund · Pull Request #1814 · w3c/aria-practices
18:10:45 <jamesn> Matt_King: If there are visual changes need to look at WHCM and other contrast
18:10:55 <jamesn> Matt_King: in 1814 what needs reviewing?
18:11:16 <jamesn> Matt_King: code changes - needs code review
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18:11:37 <jamesn> jongund: was a separate PR which was done automatically for inline SVG
18:11:52 <jamesn> jongund: inline SVG in the CSS files was done elsewhere
18:12:13 <jamesn> Matt_King: small amount of doc changes under a11y features
18:12:20 <siri> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1814
18:12:22 <CurtBellew> present+
18:12:22 <jamesn> jongund: need to look at in light of chrome
18:12:30 <jamesn> present+
18:12:43 <jamesn> jongund: proposed changes in thermostat
18:13:05 <jamesn> Matt_King: are there WHCM changes in this that model the thermostat slider one
18:13:10 <jamesn> jongund: these are old now
18:13:28 <jamesn> Matt_King: are there WHCM bugs now that there is SVG here
18:13:40 <jamesn> Matt_King: don't have to fix in this PR
18:13:42 <CurtBellew> For some reason I'm not able to get the Call details link in the email to work.  Could someone please provide the URL?
18:13:51 <jamesn> Matt_King: didn't introduce that bug
18:14:28 <jamesn> jongund: they disappear in some high contrast modes - the twisties
18:15:00 <CurtBellew> Thank you, Mark
18:15:03 <jamesn> Matt_King: can someone raise the high contrast issues
18:15:11 <MarkMcCarthy> Of course Curt!
18:15:19 <jamesn> Matt_King: my proposal is to merge with those bugs as known bugs
18:15:37 <jamesn> Matt_King: these code fixes didn't cause those bugs
18:15:47 <jamesn> Matt_King: going to be bocoup to review
18:16:14 <jamesn> Matt_King: maybe should leave HC mode doc out for now
18:16:21 <jamesn> jongund: ok
18:17:37 <jamesn> Updated checkbox example to restore visual keyboard focus styling feature by jongund · Pull Request #1802 · w3c/aria-practices
18:17:41 <MarkMcCarthy> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1802
18:19:01 <jamesn> jongund: added focus around the label as well as the checkbox
18:19:25 <jamesn> Matt_King: should this have all of the reviews?
18:20:01 <jamesn> Matt_King: should have no aria AT impact right?
18:20:39 <jamesn> jongund: only change to RT is can't send key.space - have to use the space character
18:21:38 <jamesn> Matt_King: visual design, high contrast, code and test
18:21:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: I'll add after the meeting
18:22:27 <jamesn> Matt_King: imagine will be the same for 1801
18:22:46 <MarkMcCarthy> I'll take Windows HCM reviews on these, will be quick
18:22:47 <jamesn> Matt_King: need volunteers
18:23:43 <jamesn> TOPIC: Fixes and updates to index files:
18:23:46 <MarkMcCarthy> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1607
18:24:05 <jamesn> Matt_King: I think we want to merge this first
18:24:07 <jamesn> jongund: no
18:24:37 <MarkMcCarthy> s/merge this /merge HCM info
18:24:37 <jamesn> jongund: intertwined... fix for `aria-label` first.... then other
18:25:06 <jamesn> need to make sure index is accurate
18:25:14 <jamesn> Matt_King: need to make sure index is accurate
18:25:49 <jamesn> Matt_King: a few ways to review... make sure it matches - then checking the result of that is the part I was finding to be very tedious
18:26:15 <jamesn> Matt_King: is something as we look at redesign that indexing is robust
18:26:35 <jamesn> jongund: code is succinct
18:26:59 <jamesn> Matt_King: sarah_higley do you have time to look at #1709
18:27:04 <jamesn> sarah_higley: sure
18:27:20 <jamesn> Matt_King: should reference the wiki page
18:28:00 <jamesn> Matt_King: roles, states and properties that are included in heading or code tag, anything in table of role, states and propreties - then the meta tags (actually data attributes)
18:28:11 <jamesn> jongund: think that is correct
18:28:32 <jamesn> Matt_King: 1709 first
18:29:08 <jamesn> sarah_higley: my comment was about adding tooltips to every link
18:30:09 <jamesn> jongund: I think we added it as the Screen reader wasn't picking up the abbreviation
18:30:33 <jamesn> Matt_King: my comment was that needed it defined somewhere
18:30:51 <jamesn> Matt_King: outside the link and next to it is fine
18:31:14 <jamesn> sarah_higley: `aria-describedby` if that is a good idea?
18:31:17 <Jemma> present+
18:31:42 <Jemma> agenda?
18:31:50 <jamesn> siri: could provide the abbreviation for HC at the top
18:32:33 <jamesn> Matt_King: if you read through the table then will hear the HCs but wouldn't hear them in the list of links
18:32:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: ok
18:32:55 <jamesn> Matt_King: taking the titles off the links
18:33:07 <jamesn> Matt_King: work on 1709 first then 1607
18:33:35 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1635
18:37:13 <jamesn> TOPIC: Jump to main content
18:37:23 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1635
18:38:50 <jamesn> jongund: don't think we need the show all landmarks and show all headings
18:40:06 <Jemma> you can see live example here https://www.disability.illinois.edu/
18:40:50 <Jemma> you tab into and can see landmark and page outline
18:40:52 <jamesn> jamesn: not really intended for screen. reader users
18:41:00 <jamesn> Matt_King: visually persistant
18:41:09 <jamesn> Matt_King: no logo on these pages do we
18:41:26 <jamesn> jongund: visibiltiy is important - for keyboard only
18:42:17 <jamesn> jamesn: accesskey sounds good
18:42:47 <jamesn> jongund: in this version it is a title attribute - would include a generated tooltip when it gets focus
18:42:59 <jamesn> Matt_King: how do you know what to put in
18:43:14 <jamesn> jongund: calculated base on OS and browser
18:43:29 <jamesn> Matt_King: you have to hard code it
18:43:54 <jamesn> jongund: yes i'm computing it
18:45:42 <Jemma> agenda?
18:45:59 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 3
18:45:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- removing the collapsible list box -- taken up [from Jemma]
18:46:08 <jamesn> sarah_higley: burn it
18:46:29 <jamesn> Matt_King: would like a PR to deprecate it
18:47:05 <jamesn> sarah_higley: keep the page link but have it being a note about the deprecation
18:47:53 <jamesn> Matt_King: want to reference the select only combobox
18:48:25 <jamesn> sarah_higley: I'm happy to do the PR
18:48:34 <jamesn> Matt_King: lets get a proposal
18:48:53 <jongund> scribe: jongund
18:48:56 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:48:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- revisit accordion behaviors on demo page -- taken up [from Jemma]
18:49:04 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 4
18:49:04 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- ARIA 1.3 First Working Draft Prep -- taken up [from Jemma]
18:49:33 <jongund> MK: What we need for annotations, there are room for a lot of guidance
18:49:42 <ZoeBijl> regrets+
18:50:00 <jongund> MK: It should be similar to our labeling and describing section, rather than functional example
18:50:10 <jongund> MK: That is the first item
18:50:30 <jongund> JN: I think prose is good, but we could link to an example document
18:50:42 <jongund> JN: A page with static annotations
18:50:54 <jongund> MK: Kind of like what we do for landmarks
18:51:01 <jongund> JN: I have some ideas for this
18:51:11 <ZoeBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/30-aria-apg-minutes.html ZoeBijl
18:51:17 <jongund> MK: Some borrowing from what Aaron has done
18:51:45 <jongund> MK: We might get contributions from many people, JN can you start off
18:52:02 <jongund> JN: Do we want a super annotation issue that covers all of these things
18:52:26 <jongund> MK: COmments and suggestions go together, aria-details is an interesting beast,
18:52:46 <jongund> MK: Isn;t aria-details used to link... termonology
18:52:56 <jongund> MK: ONe is the annotation and ..
18:53:24 <jongund> JN: aria-details references the thing you are annotating and the annotation
18:53:51 <jongund> MK: It feels like for that use case, the details should be specifically fot annotations
18:54:17 <jongund> JN: We have other uses for aria-details, but this is the primary use case
18:54:25 <jongund> JN: Aaron needed it
18:54:44 <jongund> MK: What are the use cases related to suggestions...
18:54:49 <jongund> JN: Let me look
18:55:53 <Jemma> here is info for aria details annotation https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1136
18:56:15 <jongund> JN: The two use cases, not specially annotations, when you have some other user editing the text,
18:56:28 <jongund> JN: There is inline stuff...
18:56:30 <Jemma> "aria-description="[localized string]" (similar to how aria-label can be used instead of aria-labelledby). This is a generically useful attribute that has been requested for years, and can be placed on any element.
18:56:30 <Jemma> Note for authors: aria-description should not be used when there is a more specific semantic to express the same information.
18:56:30 <Jemma> Order of precedence for description fields in accessibility APIs: 1) aria-describedby, 2) aria-description, 3) native markup such as HTML's @title"
18:57:04 <jongund> MK: Is it the case we put aria-description in two places and they reference each other
18:57:21 <jongund> JN: I will do 2 PRs, so they are not so big
18:57:36 <jongund> MK: Let's address annotation first
18:57:41 <Jemma> Thanks so much, James!
18:57:52 <jongund> JN: I will get something for us to comment on
18:58:20 <jongund> MK: What is the direction aria-braille* , since there are lot of warnings in the spec
18:58:44 <Jemma> agenda?
18:58:45 <jongund> MK: It should be about when to use it or why to use it
19:00:24 <jongund> JG: I am concerns about people using without understanding them, since they have label and descrption in the text string
19:00:55 <jongund> JN: We need people who use Braille to give the examples, where these would be useful
19:02:10 <Jemma> jn: I would like to propose simply putting braille name and description with intended purpose with caution
19:02:20 <jongund> JN:  I think we could add a caution in the naming and description section about the using them without expert knowledge
19:03:05 <jongund> JG: Have these attributes been socialized with Braille users
19:03:18 <Jemma> zakim, next item
19:03:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- revisit accordion behaviors on demo page -- taken up [from Jemma]
19:03:23 <Jemma> zakim, next item
19:03:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, Jemma
19:03:29 <jongund> MK: We need to vet them through the spec process
19:03:38 <Jemma> zakim, close agendum 2
19:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 2, revisit accordion behaviors on demo page, closed
19:03:39 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
19:03:49 <Jemma> zakim, next item
19:03:49 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Jemma
19:03:57 <Jemma> agenda?
19:04:00 <jongund> JN: The practices should reenforce the need for caution
19:04:13 <jongund> MK: We need to reach out to Sina and Peter
19:04:24 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:04:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/30-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund
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19:09:04 <Matt_King> jamesn: https://w3c.github.io/aria-at/review/modal-dialog.html
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