IRC log of wot on 2021-03-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:01:55 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wot
- 12:01:55 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-irc
- 12:02:00 [McCool]
- McCool has joined #wot
- 12:02:31 [kaz]
- Meeting: WoT-IG/WG vF2F Meeting in March Day 5
- 12:02:40 [Citrullin]
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- 12:02:42 [kaz]
- Chair: Sebastian/McCool
- 12:03:08 [mjk]
- mjk has joined #wot
- 12:03:08 [kaz]
- present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh
- 12:03:26 [kaz]
- present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally
- 12:03:45 [dape]
- dape has joined #wot
- 12:03:48 [kaz]
- present+ Michael_McCool, Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay
- 12:03:52 [mlagally]
- mlagally has joined #wot
- 12:03:56 [kaz]
- zakim, who is on the call?
- 12:03:56 [Zakim]
- Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh, Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool,
- 12:03:59 [Zakim]
- ... Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay
- 12:04:30 [kaz]
- scribenick: dsr
- 12:04:30 [dsr]
- scribenick: dsr
- 12:04:45 [kaz]
- topic: Scribes
- 12:04:58 [FarshidT]
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- 12:05:20 [victor]
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- 12:05:34 [kaz]
- s/topic: Scribes//
- 12:05:53 [kaz]
- Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_March_2021#Wednesday_March_24
- 12:06:08 [kaz]
- present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
- 12:06:11 [FarshidT]
- topic: opening / agenda
- 12:06:56 [kaz]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-24-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf Opening slides
- 12:07:19 [kaz]
- i/topic: o/scribenick: FarshidT/
- 12:07:24 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:07:54 [FarshidT]
- sk: reminder: contribute to use case PRs and issues
- 12:08:18 [kaz]
- q?
- 12:08:43 [mlagally]
- q+
- 12:08:44 [FarshidT]
- ... profile discussions in issue #73
- 12:08:51 [kaz]
- q+
- 12:09:34 [FarshidT]
- ... We may need to increase the profiling time. One hour is often not enough.
- 12:09:45 [kaz]
- i|reminder|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-42-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf updated Opening slides|
- 12:10:10 [kaz]
- present+ Klaus_Hartke
- 12:10:21 [kaz]
- q?
- 12:10:37 [FarshidT]
- mmc: there are also a number of discovery issues requiring feedback. Editorial ones may be merged today.
- 12:10:50 [kaz]
- q?
- 12:10:52 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 12:11:00 [McCool]
- ack mccool
- 12:11:05 [FarshidT]
- cg: the listing PR should not be merged yet. It is still under discussion.
- 12:12:00 [kaz]
- ack ml
- 12:12:33 [sebastian]
- ack k
- 12:12:39 [FarshidT]
- ml: the next architecture call, after Easter (15 days) will be 2 hours and dedicated to profiling discussion.
- 12:13:01 [sebastian]
- Kaz we cannot hear you?
- 12:13:42 [FarshidT]
- sk: today's agenda will cover:
- 12:13:51 [FarshidT]
- ... What's new in TD 1.1
- 12:13:59 [FarshidT]
- ... Next TD publications
- 12:14:06 [FarshidT]
- ... Thing model
- 12:14:16 [FarshidT]
- ... TD canonicalization
- 12:14:26 [FarshidT]
- ... News from iotschema.org
- 12:15:01 [FarshidT]
- s/model/Model/
- 12:15:32 [kaz]
- s/15 days/April 22/
- 12:16:34 [FarshidT]
- sk: the profiling discussions should continue on the issue tracker and in PRs. Three weeks break is a long time.
- 12:16:47 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:16:55 [dezell]
- dezell has joined #wot
- 12:17:01 [dezell]
- present+ David_Ezell
- 12:17:23 [benfrancis]
- q?
- 12:17:31 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 12:18:09 [sebastian]
- ack b
- 12:18:15 [FarshidT]
- kaz: Ben has some long and reasonable comments.
- 12:18:20 [kaz]
- present+ Ben_Francis
- 12:18:57 [kevin]
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- 12:18:59 [FarshidT]
- bf: Can create a PR with the proposal
- 12:19:33 [FarshidT]
- mmc: Better discuss and resolve open issues before creating a PR. Otherwise the discussion will be moved to the PR.
- 12:20:08 [ryuichi]
- ryuichi has joined #wot
- 12:20:13 [FarshidT]
- mmc: It is best to have small PRs with concrete proposals what we can quickly agree on and move on.
- 12:20:26 [FarshidT]
- s/what/that/
- 12:20:31 [zkis]
- zkis has joined #wot
- 12:20:33 [kaz]
- kaz: @@@
- 12:22:40 [zkis]
- present+ Zoltan_Kis
- 12:22:44 [kaz]
- s/@@@/we should be careful how to handle the contributions. starting with summarized comments from each contributor on Issue 73 with possible disposition of all the comments would be useful for the discussion on April 22./
- 12:22:45 [McCool]
- q?
- 12:22:47 [FarshidT]
- topic: TD 1.1
- 12:24:35 [zkis]
- q+
- 12:24:47 [kaz]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 12:24:51 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:25:00 [McCool]
- q?
- 12:25:09 [kaz]
- q+ Ege
- 12:25:10 [FarshidT]
- sk: added (un)observeallproperties type for op
- 12:25:28 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 12:25:33 [McCool]
- ack ege
- 12:26:07 [FarshidT]
- ek: Is this referring to when "any" property is changed or when "all" properties are changed?
- 12:26:30 [kaz]
- ack e
- 12:26:36 [Ege]
- Ege has joined #wot
- 12:26:42 [FarshidT]
- ek: will the response include all changed properties or only those that have changed?
- 12:26:54 [McCool]
- q?
- 12:26:58 [McCool]
- ack z
- 12:27:29 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:27:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:27:53 [FarshidT]
- zk: If the implementation doesn't support an observeall in a single transaction, should it fail or fall back to another op?
- 12:28:11 [FarshidT]
- sk: if the implementation doesn't support it, then it should not advertise it in the TD.
- 12:28:16 [McCool]
- q?
- 12:28:19 [McCool]
- ack b
- 12:28:25 [Ege]
- q+
- 12:28:30 [kaz]
- present+ Kevin_Olotu
- 12:28:40 [FarshidT]
- bf: if there is observeall, should there also be subscribe all events?
- 12:28:50 [kaz]
- present+ Philipp_Blum
- 12:28:56 [kaz]
- present+ Tetsushi_Matsuda
- 12:29:15 [kaz]
- present+ Victor_Charpenay
- 12:29:17 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:29:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:30:02 [kaz]
- present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
- 12:30:09 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:30:09 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:30:32 [FarshidT]
- bf: this currently exists in WebThings and also the directory spec. We may need an equivalent to this for events. Also, we may need to get past events.
- 12:31:08 [FarshidT]
- mmc: It makes sense, but need to discuss in a separate issue.
- 12:31:39 [FarshidT]
- sk: This may be offered by a subprotocol, but adding everything to the top level spec may not be appropriate.
- 12:31:44 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:31:54 [McCool]
- ack ege
- 12:32:56 [FarshidT]
- ek: The op values are not properly explained. It would be useful to add a table (instead of sentences in a paragraph) to explain individual values.
- 12:33:10 [FarshidT]
- sk: It is a good point.
- 12:33:21 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:33:31 [sebastian]
- ack m
- 12:33:52 [FarshidT]
- mmc: It will be useful, but the descriptions should be protocol agnostic.
- 12:33:56 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance
- 12:34:48 [FarshidT]
- sk: Next change is the relations table
- 12:35:04 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:35:10 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#link 5.3.4.1 Link
- 12:35:16 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:35:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:35:47 [FarshidT]
- ... possible values are listed. Mostly based on existing IANA link relation registrations.
- 12:36:17 [victor]
- q+
- 12:36:18 [kaz]
- s/topic: TD 1.1/topic: What's new in TD 1.1/
- 12:36:26 [matsuda]
- matsuda has joined #wot
- 12:36:34 [FarshidT]
- mmc: we also have a relation type used in discovery (describedby), which didn't make to this list
- 12:37:03 [FarshidT]
- ... extends is strange in the given context
- 12:37:05 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 12:37:14 [Ege]
- q?
- 12:37:19 [victor]
- my question: can you elaborate on 'controlledBy'?
- 12:38:05 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 12:38:39 [FarshidT]
- ... proxy-to may be redundant. Need to check if the use is different with the existing proxy relation type.
- 12:39:44 [FarshidT]
- vc: What is the purpose of controlledBy relation type?
- 12:39:53 [kaz]
- i/added (un)/subtopic: Form/
- 12:40:09 [mjk]
- q?
- 12:40:13 [victor]
- ack
- 12:40:22 [victor]
- ack victor
- 12:40:23 [FarshidT]
- sk: controlledBy refers to devices controlled by another Thing.
- 12:40:40 [McCool]
- q?
- 12:40:44 [McCool]
- ack b
- 12:40:45 [kaz]
- i|added (un)|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#form 5.3.4.2 Form|
- 12:41:19 [kaz]
- i|should there also be sub|subtopic: EventAffordance|
- 12:41:25 [FarshidT]
- bf: is manifest used in the right context?
- 12:41:50 [kaz]
- i|should there also be sub|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance|
- 12:41:52 [mjk]
- https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/links.html#link-type-manifest
- 12:42:08 [kaz]
- i|next change is|subtopic: Link|
- 12:42:18 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:42:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:42:25 [FarshidT]
- mmc: I think the IANA explanation specifies the manifest format, which may not be TD. Need to look into that,
- 12:42:28 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:42:31 [FarshidT]
- s/,/./
- 12:42:50 [FarshidT]
- bf: Will create an issue to discuss the manifest relation type
- 12:43:09 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:43:10 [kaz]
- i|Next change is|subtopic: Link|
- 12:43:13 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:43:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:43:26 [FarshidT]
- sk: Next change: exlusiveMinimum and exclusiveMaximum
- 12:44:01 [kaz]
- i/Next change: e/subtopic: exclusiveMinimum and exclusiveMximum/
- 12:44:03 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:44:03 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:44:45 [FarshidT]
- mmc: We need to look into the discussions in SDF. They have been working on these for a while. We should make sure we don't have any contradicting definitions.
- 12:45:09 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:45:17 [kaz]
- i|Next change: e|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#numberschema 5.3.2.4 NumberSchema|
- 12:45:23 [FarshidT]
- Next change: one or more AdditionalExpectedResponse
- 12:45:41 [kaz]
- i|Next change: on|topic: AdditoinalExpectdResponse|
- 12:45:52 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 12:46:30 [kaz]
- i|Next change: on|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#additionalexpectedresponse 5.3.4.4 AdditionalExpectedResponse|
- 12:46:34 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 12:46:52 [FarshidT]
- each AdditionalExpectedResponse may have success, contentType. The schema field is currently under discussion and may be removed.
- 12:47:11 [FarshidT]
- s/each/... each/
- 12:47:27 [FarshidT]
- mmc: The success if false by default
- 12:47:40 [FarshidT]
- ... the schema may be moved outside and made reusable
- 12:48:33 [FarshidT]
- bf: What is the use case for this addition?
- 12:48:35 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:48:39 [sebastian]
- ack b
- 12:49:02 [FarshidT]
- mmc: There could be multiple success responses distinguishable by means other than the content type.
- 12:49:28 [FarshidT]
- ... The existing schema did not allow defining that and also the various error responses.
- 12:49:57 [FarshidT]
- sk: Next change: URI assignment for authentication location
- 12:50:08 [kaz]
- i|Next|subtopic: uri assignment for authentication location|
- 12:50:26 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:50:38 [kaz]
- i|Next|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#securityscheme 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme|
- 12:51:02 [FarshidT]
- mmc: there is a PR right now to include the body
- 12:51:20 [FarshidT]
- subtopic: Thing Model features
- 12:51:32 [McCool]
- s/include the body/extend the body to include a JSON pointer into the data schema/
- 12:51:50 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing-model 10. Thing Model
- 12:51:59 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:51:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:52:05 [FarshidT]
- sk: concepts, modeling tools
- 12:52:33 [FarshidT]
- ... Modelling tools: versioning, extension and import, placeholder, required
- 12:52:44 [sebastian]
- q?
- 12:53:18 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:53:21 [FarshidT]
- ... derivation to TD instances
- 12:53:47 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 12:54:05 [FarshidT]
- ... the algorithm and process. This is subject to change. The explanation will be improved.
- 12:54:30 [kaz]
- s/topic: Additional/subtopic: Additional/
- 12:54:32 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:54:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:54:43 [FarshidT]
- mmc: "required" field isn't in TD, so TD Model cannot be considered as a partial TD.
- 12:55:11 [dape]
- q+ to required part of JSON properties
- 12:55:13 [kaz]
- s/topic: Additoinal/subtopic: Additional/
- 12:55:16 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:55:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 12:55:19 [mlagally]
- q+
- 12:55:25 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 12:56:19 [kaz]
- ack b
- 12:56:56 [kaz]
- q+
- 12:57:13 [FarshidT]
- bf: TM adds complexity to implementations. The complexity should ideally be shifted to the cloud.
- 12:57:37 [kaz]
- present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
- 12:58:08 [FarshidT]
- sk: TM is not meant to result in a TD during runtime. It is mostly useful create TDs during development/configuration/startup time.
- 12:58:23 [FarshidT]
- s/create/to create/
- 12:59:11 [McCool]
- q+
- 12:59:49 [FarshidT]
- bf: it is not necessary to turn this into a standard. Also, requiring clients to be able to process them add complexity.
- 13:00:23 [McCool]
- q?
- 13:00:32 [FarshidT]
- sk: Standardizing it makes it easy to reuse models
- 13:00:36 [kaz]
- ack dape
- 13:00:36 [Zakim]
- dape, you wanted to required part of JSON properties
- 13:01:56 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:01:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 13:02:15 [FarshidT]
- dp: The inheritance may need to be reworked. Some thing are restricted in TD but allowed in TM. We need to improve this to simplify validations.
- 13:04:32 [kaz]
- ack ml
- 13:04:33 [FarshidT]
- ... ideally, we should start from an abstract model and define other things on top.
- 13:06:22 [FarshidT]
- ml: We should maintain the completeness of TD with semantic annotations.
- 13:07:08 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 13:07:08 [sebastian]
- ack ml
- 13:07:09 [sebastian]
- ack k
- 13:07:10 [kaz]
- kaz: @@@
- 13:07:12 [sebastian]
- ack mc
- 13:08:05 [kaz]
- s/@@@/technically, TM is not part of the normative Thing Description features, so probably it would be cleaner to split it (=TM) into a separate document on best practices or implementation guides./
- 13:08:19 [kaz]
- q?
- 13:09:14 [FarshidT]
- mmc: The TMs need to be addressable if we want to maintain them in the directory.
- 13:10:56 [kaz]
- i/The TMs/sk: TM was "Thing Template" within the Appendix for the Thing Description ver. 1.0, and it's becoming more official these days and moved to the section 10. However, agree there is still a possibility to make it a separate spec./
- 13:11:06 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:11:09 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:11:09 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 13:11:12 [FarshidT]
- bf: Do consumers need to understand TM if they come across a TD which links to a TM. The TD is incomplete with the TM.
- 13:11:46 [kaz]
- i/technically/scribenick: kaz/
- 13:11:47 [FarshidT]
- s/TM./TM. See Example 50/
- 13:11:57 [kaz]
- i/The TMs need/scribenick: FarshidT/
- 13:12:00 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:12:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 13:12:54 [sebastian]
- q?
- 13:12:57 [sebastian]
- ack b
- 13:12:59 [sebastian]
- ack Mc
- 13:13:06 [kaz]
- -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-50 Example 50
- 13:13:44 [FarshidT]
- mmc: We need to define validation to check this. There are also security considerations. The type definition is just to check if the TD is compatible with the model.
- 13:14:03 [FarshidT]
- ... The TD should be self-contained.
- 13:14:45 [FarshidT]
- ... If there are required fields in the TM, should we fetch the TM to validate the TD? This needs further discussion.
- 13:15:27 [FarshidT]
- sk: Yes, the TD is self container and the type link is just for validation.
- 13:15:51 [FarshidT]
- bf: WebThings does this kind of validation with semantic annotations. So there might be some redundancy here.
- 13:15:58 [FarshidT]
- sk: Yes we need to check this
- 13:16:13 [FarshidT]
- subtopic: Publication Roadmap
- 13:16:42 [FarshidT]
- sk: next working draft by end of April
- 13:16:50 [kaz]
- s/subtopic:/topic:/
- 13:17:48 [FarshidT]
- ... we have many open issues and with Easter holidays in between, it may not be realistic to have all included.
- 13:18:47 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 13:19:01 [FarshidT]
- ... regarding the candidate recommendation (CR), we need at least one more plugfest to test everything
- 13:19:17 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:20:50 [kaz]
- ack b
- 13:21:06 [FarshidT]
- ml: Adding vocabulary and links for profile will be easy
- 13:22:01 [FarshidT]
- bf: What is the deadline for adding things to TD 1.1 and what goes to TD 2?
- 13:22:27 [cris]
- cris has joined #wot
- 13:22:37 [FarshidT]
- mmc: We are behind the schedule. We should have a solid draft by June 1st.
- 13:23:33 [FarshidT]
- sk: We should discuss on issue tracker to know what is realistic. We also need a plugfest to test some new features.
- 13:23:47 [FarshidT]
- mmc: We may need a plugfest in June. October is too late.
- 13:24:41 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:24:54 [FarshidT]
- ml: canonical and signing can be included in profiles and moved to TD later.
- 13:25:30 [FarshidT]
- mmc: I think canonicalization belongs to TD. It is not so difficult to add. Also, we need a formal validation process.
- 13:26:38 [kaz]
- +1
- 13:26:46 [kaz]
- q?
- 13:26:49 [kaz]
- q+
- 13:27:04 [kaz]
- ack m
- 13:28:28 [FarshidT]
- mmc: Deadline proposal: May 15th: complete draft. June 1st: pre-CR and plugfest
- 13:29:56 [FarshidT]
- ml: canonicalization will be simple if we follow existing specs
- 13:30:31 [FarshidT]
- mmc: validation is a lot of work, but not so complicated
- 13:31:38 [FarshidT]
- mmc: validation is important before storing TDs in a directory.
- 13:32:25 [FarshidT]
- kaz: We need implementations too for the CR.
- 13:32:37 [Ege]
- q+
- 13:32:49 [FarshidT]
- mmc: The plugfest will show the implementations status
- 13:32:50 [kaz]
- kaz: provide assertion lists and identify features at risk
- 13:33:09 [kaz]
- q?
- 13:33:12 [kaz]
- ack k
- 13:33:17 [sebastian]
- ack e
- 13:33:21 [McCool]
- june plugfest should probably be a "testfest" and should have the goal of generating a draft implementation report
- 13:33:56 [FarshidT]
- ek: there should be a deadline to have feature-freeze to allow stable implementations
- 13:33:59 [McCool]
- ... and can then identify at-risk items
- 13:34:20 [dsr]
- scribenick: dsr
- 13:34:48 [FarshidT]
- sk: 10 minutes break
- 13:35:22 [kaz]
- s/We need implementations too for the CR./Please remember that we need an implementation report plan doc (including assertion list) and also need to identify features at risk for CR transition./
- 13:35:37 [kaz]
- [10-min break]
- 13:35:45 [kaz]
- rrsaggent, draft minutes
- 13:35:55 [kaz]
- s/rrsaggent, draft minutes//
- 13:36:00 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:36:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 13:44:21 [kaz]
- scribenick: dsr
- 13:44:48 [dsr]
- sebastian shows slides summarising issues arising from the plugfest
- 13:45:09 [kaz]
- i/sebastian/topic: Thing Model/
- 13:45:17 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:45:33 [dsr]
- The required term is from JSON schema
- 13:46:07 [dsr]
- but is at the same level as properties
- 13:46:32 [dsr]
- McCool: move it up a level
- 13:47:09 [dape]
- q+ to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts
- 13:47:19 [dsr]
- It is at the wrong place and would preclude properties named "required"
- 13:47:21 [McCool]
- ack m
- 13:47:39 [McCool]
- to dape: it can just apply to all interactions
- 13:48:02 [dsr]
- sebastian cites work with SDF
- 13:48:10 [McCool]
- although... then we can't have properties and actions with the same name. Sigh...
- 13:48:46 [McCool]
- (anyhow... sebastian's proposals seems to address this)
- 13:48:53 [kaz]
- q?
- 13:48:56 [kaz]
- ack d
- 13:48:56 [Zakim]
- dape, you wanted to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts
- 13:49:26 [dsr]
- dape notes that moving "required" up a level would preclude having the same name for properties and actions, etc.
- 13:49:36 [mjk]
- q?
- 13:49:53 [dape]
- ack dape
- 13:49:53 [dsr]
- McCool: sebastian's proposal uses a URI path to avoid that
- 13:49:54 [sebastian]
- q?
- 13:50:24 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:50:51 [dsr]
- mlagally: I am a bit puzzled about whether JSON-LD already provides a solution.
- 13:51:18 [dsr]
- sebastian: would we need to use SHACL for this?
- 13:51:50 [dsr]
- McCool: we could use "tm:required" here
- 13:52:20 [kaz]
- q?
- 13:52:24 [kaz]
- ack m
- 13:52:28 [kaz]
- q+
- 13:52:29 [cris]
- q+
- 13:52:31 [dsr]
- sebastian asks mlagally if he is against this proposal
- 13:52:34 [dsr]
- mlagally: no
- 13:53:08 [benfrancis]
- FYI https://json-schema.org/draft/2020-12/json-schema-validation.html#rfc.section.6.5.3
- 13:53:12 [kaz]
- ack k
- 13:53:14 [dsr]
- McCool: I propose we have a context file for thing models
- 13:53:48 [dsr]
- as distinct from thing descriptions
- 13:54:06 [kaz]
- i/I propose/kaz: just to make sure, do you mean "required" here is affiliated with the context/namespace of "tm"?/
- 13:54:10 [dsr]
- cris: +1 for this proposal
- 13:54:50 [dsr]
- sebastian: I will raise this as a GitHub issue for further review
- 13:54:53 [sebastian]
- q?
- 13:54:56 [sebastian]
- ack c
- 13:55:46 [McCool]
- q+
- 13:55:55 [dsr]
- sebastian: the extends feature doesn't yet support importing sub-definitions
- 13:56:10 [McCool]
- comment: likewise, "extends" could be "tm:extends", and only allowed in TMs...
- 13:57:05 [dsr]
- sebastian: sometimes you want to borrow part of a model, but not the whole model
- 13:57:08 [cris]
- we could move also ThingModel -> tm:ThingModel
- 13:57:44 [Citrullin]
- +1 on tm:ThingModel, I also prefer some kind of prefix for it.
- 13:58:20 [dsr]
- sebastian: JSON schema uses $ref, whilst SDF defines sdfRef
- 13:58:56 [dsr]
- We need something like a macro inclusion ...
- 13:59:26 [dsr]
- We could use tmRef or perhaps tm:Ref
- 13:59:55 [dsr]
- McCool: this is basically a JSON pointer
- 14:00:23 [dsr]
- adds +1
- 14:00:24 [sebastian]
- q?
- 14:00:26 [sebastian]
- ack m
- 14:01:04 [dsr]
- sebastian: to clarify, this is only for tm not td
- 14:01:29 [dsr]
- the imported definitions should be self-contained
- 14:01:57 [dsr]
- McCool: we may need to allow for empty models in respect to validation
- 14:02:03 [cris]
- q+
- 14:02:39 [dsr]
- mjk: I agree with this
- 14:03:03 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:03:05 [kaz]
- ack c
- 14:03:29 [dsr]
- cris: can you import a model and extend it?
- 14:03:32 [dsr]
- sebastian: yes
- 14:03:41 [McCool]
- q+
- 14:04:44 [dsr]
- mjk talks through the extends behaviour
- 14:05:08 [dsr]
- we should clarify what we mean
- 14:05:38 [dsr]
- McCool: there is the potential for conflicts when importing stuff
- 14:06:00 [dsr]
- I prefer to use ref to identify just what you want to pull in
- 14:06:25 [dsr]
- mjk: the term "type" is preferable
- 14:06:31 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:06:33 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 14:07:02 [dsr]
- McCool: "extends" would just indicate a dependency, but not the details
- 14:07:24 [dsr]
- cris: why do we need "extends" in that case if it is redundant?
- 14:08:13 [dsr]
- cris: tm:ref would override extends
- 14:08:44 [dsr]
- mjk: we could say that ref doesn't change the meaning ...
- 14:09:22 [dsr]
- "extends" brings some baggage we don't need
- 14:09:54 [dsr]
- we need to define the processing model for interpreting TDs and TMs
- 14:09:57 [sebastian]
- q?
- 14:09:58 [kaz]
- q+
- 14:09:59 [McCool]
- ack mc
- 14:10:20 [dsr]
- sebastian: I will create an issue to gather further review
- 14:10:47 [dsr]
- kaz: we want to think about compatibility between WoT TM and SDF, right?
- 14:11:08 [dsr]
- we could explore this in the next plugfest
- 14:11:38 [McCool]
- q+
- 14:11:42 [kaz]
- ack k
- 14:12:36 [dsr]
- sebastian cites the discussion on media type for Thing Models
- 14:12:43 [kaz]
- ack mc
- 14:12:56 [dsr]
- McCool: we need to include this in the IANA registration
- 14:13:18 [kaz]
- q+
- 14:13:38 [dsr]
- we need to register our use of JSON pointer for both TD and TM
- 14:14:03 [kaz]
- q-
- 14:14:21 [kaz]
- sk: need more discussion and continue
- 14:15:00 [dsr]
- mjk provides feedback on OneDM and WoT plugfest
- 14:15:17 [kaz]
- i|provides|topic: feedback from PlugFest about SDF-TM usage|
- 14:15:30 [dsr]
- Exploration of generating TM/TD from oneDM's SDF
- 14:16:02 [dsr]
- He cites a Modbus example
- 14:17:40 [dsr]
- slide with model construction work flow
- 14:18:04 [dsr]
- SDF doesn't really describe data schemas
- 14:18:23 [dsr]
- it relies on the protocol and instance bindings
- 14:19:49 [dsr]
- mjk: I also worked on semantic annotations
- 14:20:08 [sebastian]
- q+
- 14:20:44 [dsr]
- Some questions about terms
- 14:21:28 [dsr]
- sebastian: your @type is from RDF, right
- 14:21:48 [dsr]
- I would expect a reference to RDF representations
- 14:22:12 [sebastian]
- ack s
- 14:22:19 [dsr]
- mjk: @type just gives a URI and could point to Turtle or JSON-LD as needed
- 14:22:44 [dsr]
- Use of RDF would enable use of RDF tools
- 14:22:59 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 14:23:23 [dsr]
- benfrancis: this is what schema.org does, and we've followed it for webthings
- 14:23:47 [kaz]
- ack b
- 14:23:59 [victor]
- from the JSON-LD rec: ""@type" value must a string, an array of strings, an empty object, or a default object."
- 14:24:41 [dsr]
- mjk talks about gaps in the SDF conversion process
- 14:24:50 [victor]
- the RDF data model makes a distinction between resources (identified by URIs) and representations (which has a specific content types and "represent" resources)
- 14:24:57 [dsr]
- some changes for SDF 1.1
- 14:25:16 [dsr]
- JSON schema required for input and output elements
- 14:25:35 [victor]
- so, adding a content type to an RDF class shouldn't be possible
- 14:26:46 [dsr]
- mjk: also we now have sdfChoice for enums
- 14:27:50 [dsr]
- and a means to annotate generated TD/TM from the SDF source references
- 14:28:34 [dsr]
- some stuff to do with fixed point decimal numbers
- 14:29:26 [dsr]
- along with min/max and scaling
- 14:29:59 [dsr]
- an open issue about non-linear scales, e.g. log scales
- 14:30:55 [dsr]
- The Modbus experiments were helpful
- 14:31:11 [dsr]
- some suggestions for vocabulary
- 14:31:49 [dsr]
- need to specify precision for Modbus data, e.g. 16 bits
- 14:32:22 [dsr]
- need to map array contents to properties
- 14:32:44 [sebastian]
- q?
- 14:33:06 [dsr]
- sebastian: thanks for sharing this with us, please share the slides too
- 14:33:10 [sebastian]
- https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f
- 14:33:48 [dsr]
- Topic: Canonicalisation
- 14:34:09 [dsr]
- mlagally: here are a few slides ...
- 14:34:53 [dsr]
- architecture discussion now as GitHub issues
- 14:35:44 [dsr]
- We're interested in canonical forms of TDs
- 14:36:06 [dsr]
- useful for TD comparisons, crypto etc.
- 14:37:03 [dsr]
- JSON has a canonicalization scheme RFC8785
- 14:37:35 [dsr]
- we need additional rules and clarifications, e.g. default values
- 14:38:15 [dsr]
- prefixes, array ordering, structural ordering
- 14:38:55 [dsr]
- McCool: we also need to decide when we have multiple ways to express things
- 14:39:27 [dsr]
- Further discussion needed
- 14:39:34 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:39:40 [dsr]
- mlagally: now let's talk about signed TDs
- 14:39:59 [dsr]
- essentially sign canonicalised form
- 14:40:24 [dsr]
- see also RFC7515 JSON web signature
- 14:41:26 [dsr]
- envisage need to update the signing algorithms
- 14:41:55 [dape]
- q+ to default values are omitted. 2 questiosn: 1. remove default values 2. likelihood to have additional default values
- 14:42:17 [dsr]
- open issues around self contained TDs and TMs
- 14:43:18 [dsr]
- McCool talks about role of URLs in signing
- 14:44:34 [dsr]
- McCool: I don't think we need to rely on JSON-LD canonicalisation
- 14:45:04 [dsr]
- Some challenges with strings
- 14:45:18 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:45:20 [kaz]
- ack d
- 14:45:20 [Zakim]
- dape, you wanted to default values are omitted. 2 questiosn: 1. remove default values 2. likelihood to have additional default values
- 14:45:49 [dsr]
- dape: omitting default values, means having to prune them before signing
- 14:46:38 [dsr]
- McCool: if a property has the default value, we should omit it as it is redundant
- 14:47:00 [sebastian]
- q+
- 14:47:22 [sebastian]
- q-
- 14:47:32 [dsr]
- Defaults can be changed at major version updates
- 14:48:10 [dsr]
- McCool: signing involves chaining
- 14:48:27 [dsr]
- the signature says who you have to trust
- 14:49:16 [dsr]
- we need to canonicalise relative URIs etc.
- 14:49:17 [dape]
- ack dape
- 14:49:59 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 14:49:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 14:50:35 [dsr]
- mlagally: forcing alphabetically sorted statements is bad for intelligibility
- 14:50:47 [dsr]
- better to specify ordering
- 14:51:29 [dsr]
- McCool: I will prepare a pull request
- 14:51:52 [kaz]
- present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
- 14:52:06 [dsr]
- Topic: IoT Schema
- 14:52:44 [dsr]
- The IoT schema CG is rechartering
- 14:53:27 [dsr]
- we're more aligned with web of things that schema.org focus on web search
- 14:53:34 [dsr]
- s/that/than
- 14:54:19 [dsr]
- The idea is to support a catalogue of device descriptions
- 14:54:51 [dsr]
- There are a lot of existing models we can import
- 14:55:45 [dsr]
- we want to normalise the models from the heterogeneous representations
- 14:56:24 [dsr]
- is there enough critical mass, can we build a new consortium?
- 14:56:56 [dsr]
- from those already in W3C
- 14:56:56 [benfrancis]
- q+
- 14:57:19 [dsr]
- we're looking for people to sign up ...
- 14:58:27 [dsr]
- benfrancis: I am very supportive of this work, we have 20 plus models for webthings
- 14:58:41 [dsr]
- happy to contribute those models
- 14:59:10 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:59:12 [dsr]
- what is the overlap with thing models? I will create a GitHub issue to discuss this further
- 14:59:17 [dsr]
- mjk: good question
- 14:59:38 [dsr]
- sebastian: +1
- 14:59:39 [kaz]
- ack b
- 15:00:06 [kaz]
- +1
- 15:00:31 [benfrancis]
- FYI https://webthings.io/schemas
- 15:00:40 [kaz]
- q+
- 15:00:52 [dsr]
- sebastian: we could include examples in the TD spec
- 15:01:18 [sebastian]
- https://www.w3.org/community/iotschema/#
- 15:01:27 [dsr]
- Everyone is welcome to join the CG
- 15:01:56 [victor]
- I've got to go. Have a good day, all
- 15:02:29 [sebastian]
- q?
- 15:02:34 [sebastian]
- ack k
- 15:02:37 [dsr]
- kaz makes a comment on where work takes place
- 15:03:24 [dsr]
- sebastian wraps up today's meeting.
- 15:03:24 [kaz]
- s/place/place, e.g., we WoT group work on requirements and ask the CG(s) and SDF guys to work on actual spec work instead :)/
- 15:03:46 [dsr]
- McCool: we have a tight schedule tomorrow, please email me any agenda changes
- 15:03:49 [kaz]
- s/e.g.,/e.g., possibly/
- 15:04:00 [dsr]
- sebastian: no WoT calls next week
- 15:04:09 [kaz]
- i/we have/topic: Tomorrow/
- 15:04:40 [dsr]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:04:40 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html dsr
- 15:05:27 [kaz]
- [adjourned]
- 15:05:36 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:05:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
- 15:06:11 [Ege]
- https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/146
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