IRC log of wot on 2021-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:01:55 [RRSAgent]
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12:01:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-irc
12:02:00 [McCool]
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12:02:31 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT-IG/WG vF2F Meeting in March Day 5
12:02:40 [Citrullin]
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12:02:42 [kaz]
Chair: Sebastian/McCool
12:03:08 [mjk]
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12:03:08 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh
12:03:26 [kaz]
present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally
12:03:45 [dape]
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12:03:48 [kaz]
present+ Michael_McCool, Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay
12:03:52 [mlagally]
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12:03:56 [kaz]
zakim, who is on the call?
12:03:56 [Zakim]
Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh, Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool,
12:03:59 [Zakim]
... Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay
12:04:30 [kaz]
scribenick: dsr
12:04:30 [dsr]
scribenick: dsr
12:04:45 [kaz]
topic: Scribes
12:04:58 [FarshidT]
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12:05:20 [victor]
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12:05:34 [kaz]
s/topic: Scribes//
12:05:53 [kaz]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_March_2021#Wednesday_March_24
12:06:08 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:06:11 [FarshidT]
topic: opening / agenda
12:06:56 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-24-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf Opening slides
12:07:19 [kaz]
i/topic: o/scribenick: FarshidT/
12:07:24 [McCool]
q+
12:07:54 [FarshidT]
sk: reminder: contribute to use case PRs and issues
12:08:18 [kaz]
q?
12:08:43 [mlagally]
q+
12:08:44 [FarshidT]
... profile discussions in issue #73
12:08:51 [kaz]
q+
12:09:34 [FarshidT]
... We may need to increase the profiling time. One hour is often not enough.
12:09:45 [kaz]
i|reminder|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-42-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf updated Opening slides|
12:10:10 [kaz]
present+ Klaus_Hartke
12:10:21 [kaz]
q?
12:10:37 [FarshidT]
mmc: there are also a number of discovery issues requiring feedback. Editorial ones may be merged today.
12:10:50 [kaz]
q?
12:10:52 [kaz]
ack mc
12:11:00 [McCool]
ack mccool
12:11:05 [FarshidT]
cg: the listing PR should not be merged yet. It is still under discussion.
12:12:00 [kaz]
ack ml
12:12:33 [sebastian]
ack k
12:12:39 [FarshidT]
ml: the next architecture call, after Easter (15 days) will be 2 hours and dedicated to profiling discussion.
12:13:01 [sebastian]
Kaz we cannot hear you?
12:13:42 [FarshidT]
sk: today's agenda will cover:
12:13:51 [FarshidT]
... What's new in TD 1.1
12:13:59 [FarshidT]
... Next TD publications
12:14:06 [FarshidT]
... Thing model
12:14:16 [FarshidT]
... TD canonicalization
12:14:26 [FarshidT]
... News from iotschema.org
12:15:01 [FarshidT]
s/model/Model/
12:15:32 [kaz]
s/15 days/April 22/
12:16:34 [FarshidT]
sk: the profiling discussions should continue on the issue tracker and in PRs. Three weeks break is a long time.
12:16:47 [sebastian]
q?
12:16:55 [dezell]
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12:17:01 [dezell]
present+ David_Ezell
12:17:23 [benfrancis]
q?
12:17:31 [benfrancis]
q+
12:18:09 [sebastian]
ack b
12:18:15 [FarshidT]
kaz: Ben has some long and reasonable comments.
12:18:20 [kaz]
present+ Ben_Francis
12:18:57 [kevin]
kevin has joined #wot
12:18:59 [FarshidT]
bf: Can create a PR with the proposal
12:19:33 [FarshidT]
mmc: Better discuss and resolve open issues before creating a PR. Otherwise the discussion will be moved to the PR.
12:20:08 [ryuichi]
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12:20:13 [FarshidT]
mmc: It is best to have small PRs with concrete proposals what we can quickly agree on and move on.
12:20:26 [FarshidT]
s/what/that/
12:20:31 [zkis]
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12:20:33 [kaz]
kaz: @@@
12:22:40 [zkis]
present+ Zoltan_Kis
12:22:44 [kaz]
s/@@@/we should be careful how to handle the contributions. starting with summarized comments from each contributor on Issue 73 with possible disposition of all the comments would be useful for the discussion on April 22./
12:22:45 [McCool]
q?
12:22:47 [FarshidT]
topic: TD 1.1
12:24:35 [zkis]
q+
12:24:47 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:24:51 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:25:00 [McCool]
q?
12:25:09 [kaz]
q+ Ege
12:25:10 [FarshidT]
sk: added (un)observeallproperties type for op
12:25:28 [benfrancis]
q+
12:25:33 [McCool]
ack ege
12:26:07 [FarshidT]
ek: Is this referring to when "any" property is changed or when "all" properties are changed?
12:26:30 [kaz]
ack e
12:26:36 [Ege]
Ege has joined #wot
12:26:42 [FarshidT]
ek: will the response include all changed properties or only those that have changed?
12:26:54 [McCool]
q?
12:26:58 [McCool]
ack z
12:27:29 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:27:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:27:53 [FarshidT]
zk: If the implementation doesn't support an observeall in a single transaction, should it fail or fall back to another op?
12:28:11 [FarshidT]
sk: if the implementation doesn't support it, then it should not advertise it in the TD.
12:28:16 [McCool]
q?
12:28:19 [McCool]
ack b
12:28:25 [Ege]
q+
12:28:30 [kaz]
present+ Kevin_Olotu
12:28:40 [FarshidT]
bf: if there is observeall, should there also be subscribe all events?
12:28:50 [kaz]
present+ Philipp_Blum
12:28:56 [kaz]
present+ Tetsushi_Matsuda
12:29:15 [kaz]
present+ Victor_Charpenay
12:29:17 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:29:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:30:02 [kaz]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
12:30:09 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:30:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:30:32 [FarshidT]
bf: this currently exists in WebThings and also the directory spec. We may need an equivalent to this for events. Also, we may need to get past events.
12:31:08 [FarshidT]
mmc: It makes sense, but need to discuss in a separate issue.
12:31:39 [FarshidT]
sk: This may be offered by a subprotocol, but adding everything to the top level spec may not be appropriate.
12:31:44 [sebastian]
q?
12:31:54 [McCool]
ack ege
12:32:56 [FarshidT]
ek: The op values are not properly explained. It would be useful to add a table (instead of sentences in a paragraph) to explain individual values.
12:33:10 [FarshidT]
sk: It is a good point.
12:33:21 [McCool]
q+
12:33:31 [sebastian]
ack m
12:33:52 [FarshidT]
mmc: It will be useful, but the descriptions should be protocol agnostic.
12:33:56 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance
12:34:48 [FarshidT]
sk: Next change is the relations table
12:35:04 [McCool]
q+
12:35:10 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#link 5.3.4.1 Link
12:35:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:35:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:35:47 [FarshidT]
... possible values are listed. Mostly based on existing IANA link relation registrations.
12:36:17 [victor]
q+
12:36:18 [kaz]
s/topic: TD 1.1/topic: What's new in TD 1.1/
12:36:26 [matsuda]
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12:36:34 [FarshidT]
mmc: we also have a relation type used in discovery (describedby), which didn't make to this list
12:37:03 [FarshidT]
... extends is strange in the given context
12:37:05 [benfrancis]
q+
12:37:14 [Ege]
q?
12:37:19 [victor]
my question: can you elaborate on 'controlledBy'?
12:38:05 [kaz]
ack mc
12:38:39 [FarshidT]
... proxy-to may be redundant. Need to check if the use is different with the existing proxy relation type.
12:39:44 [FarshidT]
vc: What is the purpose of controlledBy relation type?
12:39:53 [kaz]
i/added (un)/subtopic: Form/
12:40:09 [mjk]
q?
12:40:13 [victor]
ack
12:40:22 [victor]
ack victor
12:40:23 [FarshidT]
sk: controlledBy refers to devices controlled by another Thing.
12:40:40 [McCool]
q?
12:40:44 [McCool]
ack b
12:40:45 [kaz]
i|added (un)|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#form 5.3.4.2 Form|
12:41:19 [kaz]
i|should there also be sub|subtopic: EventAffordance|
12:41:25 [FarshidT]
bf: is manifest used in the right context?
12:41:50 [kaz]
i|should there also be sub|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance|
12:41:52 [mjk]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/links.html#link-type-manifest
12:42:08 [kaz]
i|next change is|subtopic: Link|
12:42:18 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:42:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:42:25 [FarshidT]
mmc: I think the IANA explanation specifies the manifest format, which may not be TD. Need to look into that,
12:42:28 [sebastian]
q?
12:42:31 [FarshidT]
s/,/./
12:42:50 [FarshidT]
bf: Will create an issue to discuss the manifest relation type
12:43:09 [McCool]
q+
12:43:10 [kaz]
i|Next change is|subtopic: Link|
12:43:13 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:43:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:43:26 [FarshidT]
sk: Next change: exlusiveMinimum and exclusiveMaximum
12:44:01 [kaz]
i/Next change: e/subtopic: exclusiveMinimum and exclusiveMximum/
12:44:03 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:44:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:44:45 [FarshidT]
mmc: We need to look into the discussions in SDF. They have been working on these for a while. We should make sure we don't have any contradicting definitions.
12:45:09 [McCool]
q+
12:45:17 [kaz]
i|Next change: e|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#numberschema 5.3.2.4 NumberSchema|
12:45:23 [FarshidT]
Next change: one or more AdditionalExpectedResponse
12:45:41 [kaz]
i|Next change: on|topic: AdditoinalExpectdResponse|
12:45:52 [benfrancis]
q+
12:46:30 [kaz]
i|Next change: on|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#additionalexpectedresponse 5.3.4.4 AdditionalExpectedResponse|
12:46:34 [kaz]
ack mc
12:46:52 [FarshidT]
each AdditionalExpectedResponse may have success, contentType. The schema field is currently under discussion and may be removed.
12:47:11 [FarshidT]
s/each/... each/
12:47:27 [FarshidT]
mmc: The success if false by default
12:47:40 [FarshidT]
... the schema may be moved outside and made reusable
12:48:33 [FarshidT]
bf: What is the use case for this addition?
12:48:35 [sebastian]
q?
12:48:39 [sebastian]
ack b
12:49:02 [FarshidT]
mmc: There could be multiple success responses distinguishable by means other than the content type.
12:49:28 [FarshidT]
... The existing schema did not allow defining that and also the various error responses.
12:49:57 [FarshidT]
sk: Next change: URI assignment for authentication location
12:50:08 [kaz]
i|Next|subtopic: uri assignment for authentication location|
12:50:26 [sebastian]
q?
12:50:38 [kaz]
i|Next|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#securityscheme 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme|
12:51:02 [FarshidT]
mmc: there is a PR right now to include the body
12:51:20 [FarshidT]
subtopic: Thing Model features
12:51:32 [McCool]
s/include the body/extend the body to include a JSON pointer into the data schema/
12:51:50 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing-model 10. Thing Model
12:51:59 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:51:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:52:05 [FarshidT]
sk: concepts, modeling tools
12:52:33 [FarshidT]
... Modelling tools: versioning, extension and import, placeholder, required
12:52:44 [sebastian]
q?
12:53:18 [McCool]
q+
12:53:21 [FarshidT]
... derivation to TD instances
12:53:47 [benfrancis]
q+
12:54:05 [FarshidT]
... the algorithm and process. This is subject to change. The explanation will be improved.
12:54:30 [kaz]
s/topic: Additional/subtopic: Additional/
12:54:32 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:54:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:54:43 [FarshidT]
mmc: "required" field isn't in TD, so TD Model cannot be considered as a partial TD.
12:55:11 [dape]
q+ to required part of JSON properties
12:55:13 [kaz]
s/topic: Additoinal/subtopic: Additional/
12:55:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:55:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:55:19 [mlagally]
q+
12:55:25 [kaz]
ack mc
12:56:19 [kaz]
ack b
12:56:56 [kaz]
q+
12:57:13 [FarshidT]
bf: TM adds complexity to implementations. The complexity should ideally be shifted to the cloud.
12:57:37 [kaz]
present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
12:58:08 [FarshidT]
sk: TM is not meant to result in a TD during runtime. It is mostly useful create TDs during development/configuration/startup time.
12:58:23 [FarshidT]
s/create/to create/
12:59:11 [McCool]
q+
12:59:49 [FarshidT]
bf: it is not necessary to turn this into a standard. Also, requiring clients to be able to process them add complexity.
13:00:23 [McCool]
q?
13:00:32 [FarshidT]
sk: Standardizing it makes it easy to reuse models
13:00:36 [kaz]
ack dape
13:00:36 [Zakim]
dape, you wanted to required part of JSON properties
13:01:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:02:15 [FarshidT]
dp: The inheritance may need to be reworked. Some thing are restricted in TD but allowed in TM. We need to improve this to simplify validations.
13:04:32 [kaz]
ack ml
13:04:33 [FarshidT]
... ideally, we should start from an abstract model and define other things on top.
13:06:22 [FarshidT]
ml: We should maintain the completeness of TD with semantic annotations.
13:07:08 [benfrancis]
q+
13:07:08 [sebastian]
ack ml
13:07:09 [sebastian]
ack k
13:07:10 [kaz]
kaz: @@@
13:07:12 [sebastian]
ack mc
13:08:05 [kaz]
s/@@@/technically, TM is not part of the normative Thing Description features, so probably it would be cleaner to split it (=TM) into a separate document on best practices or implementation guides./
13:08:19 [kaz]
q?
13:09:14 [FarshidT]
mmc: The TMs need to be addressable if we want to maintain them in the directory.
13:10:56 [kaz]
i/The TMs/sk: TM was "Thing Template" within the Appendix for the Thing Description ver. 1.0, and it's becoming more official these days and moved to the section 10. However, agree there is still a possibility to make it a separate spec./
13:11:06 [McCool]
q+
13:11:09 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:11:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:11:12 [FarshidT]
bf: Do consumers need to understand TM if they come across a TD which links to a TM. The TD is incomplete with the TM.
13:11:46 [kaz]
i/technically/scribenick: kaz/
13:11:47 [FarshidT]
s/TM./TM. See Example 50/
13:11:57 [kaz]
i/The TMs need/scribenick: FarshidT/
13:12:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:12:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:12:54 [sebastian]
q?
13:12:57 [sebastian]
ack b
13:12:59 [sebastian]
ack Mc
13:13:06 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-50 Example 50
13:13:44 [FarshidT]
mmc: We need to define validation to check this. There are also security considerations. The type definition is just to check if the TD is compatible with the model.
13:14:03 [FarshidT]
... The TD should be self-contained.
13:14:45 [FarshidT]
... If there are required fields in the TM, should we fetch the TM to validate the TD? This needs further discussion.
13:15:27 [FarshidT]
sk: Yes, the TD is self container and the type link is just for validation.
13:15:51 [FarshidT]
bf: WebThings does this kind of validation with semantic annotations. So there might be some redundancy here.
13:15:58 [FarshidT]
sk: Yes we need to check this
13:16:13 [FarshidT]
subtopic: Publication Roadmap
13:16:42 [FarshidT]
sk: next working draft by end of April
13:16:50 [kaz]
s/subtopic:/topic:/
13:17:48 [FarshidT]
... we have many open issues and with Easter holidays in between, it may not be realistic to have all included.
13:18:47 [benfrancis]
q+
13:19:01 [FarshidT]
... regarding the candidate recommendation (CR), we need at least one more plugfest to test everything
13:19:17 [McCool]
q+
13:20:50 [kaz]
ack b
13:21:06 [FarshidT]
ml: Adding vocabulary and links for profile will be easy
13:22:01 [FarshidT]
bf: What is the deadline for adding things to TD 1.1 and what goes to TD 2?
13:22:27 [cris]
cris has joined #wot
13:22:37 [FarshidT]
mmc: We are behind the schedule. We should have a solid draft by June 1st.
13:23:33 [FarshidT]
sk: We should discuss on issue tracker to know what is realistic. We also need a plugfest to test some new features.
13:23:47 [FarshidT]
mmc: We may need a plugfest in June. October is too late.
13:24:41 [McCool]
q+
13:24:54 [FarshidT]
ml: canonical and signing can be included in profiles and moved to TD later.
13:25:30 [FarshidT]
mmc: I think canonicalization belongs to TD. It is not so difficult to add. Also, we need a formal validation process.
13:26:38 [kaz]
+1
13:26:46 [kaz]
q?
13:26:49 [kaz]
q+
13:27:04 [kaz]
ack m
13:28:28 [FarshidT]
mmc: Deadline proposal: May 15th: complete draft. June 1st: pre-CR and plugfest
13:29:56 [FarshidT]
ml: canonicalization will be simple if we follow existing specs
13:30:31 [FarshidT]
mmc: validation is a lot of work, but not so complicated
13:31:38 [FarshidT]
mmc: validation is important before storing TDs in a directory.
13:32:25 [FarshidT]
kaz: We need implementations too for the CR.
13:32:37 [Ege]
q+
13:32:49 [FarshidT]
mmc: The plugfest will show the implementations status
13:32:50 [kaz]
kaz: provide assertion lists and identify features at risk
13:33:09 [kaz]
q?
13:33:12 [kaz]
ack k
13:33:17 [sebastian]
ack e
13:33:21 [McCool]
june plugfest should probably be a "testfest" and should have the goal of generating a draft implementation report
13:33:56 [FarshidT]
ek: there should be a deadline to have feature-freeze to allow stable implementations
13:33:59 [McCool]
... and can then identify at-risk items
13:34:20 [dsr]
scribenick: dsr
13:34:48 [FarshidT]
sk: 10 minutes break
13:35:22 [kaz]
s/We need implementations too for the CR./Please remember that we need an implementation report plan doc (including assertion list) and also need to identify features at risk for CR transition./
13:35:37 [kaz]
[10-min break]
13:35:45 [kaz]
rrsaggent, draft minutes
13:35:55 [kaz]
s/rrsaggent, draft minutes//
13:36:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:36:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:44:21 [kaz]
scribenick: dsr
13:44:48 [dsr]
sebastian shows slides summarising issues arising from the plugfest
13:45:09 [kaz]
i/sebastian/topic: Thing Model/
13:45:17 [McCool]
q+
13:45:33 [dsr]
The required term is from JSON schema
13:46:07 [dsr]
but is at the same level as properties
13:46:32 [dsr]
McCool: move it up a level
13:47:09 [dape]
q+ to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts
13:47:19 [dsr]
It is at the wrong place and would preclude properties named "required"
13:47:21 [McCool]
ack m
13:47:39 [McCool]
to dape: it can just apply to all interactions
13:48:02 [dsr]
sebastian cites work with SDF
13:48:10 [McCool]
although... then we can't have properties and actions with the same name. Sigh...
13:48:46 [McCool]
(anyhow... sebastian's proposals seems to address this)
13:48:53 [kaz]
q?
13:48:56 [kaz]
ack d
13:48:56 [Zakim]
dape, you wanted to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts
13:49:26 [dsr]
dape notes that moving "required" up a level would preclude having the same name for properties and actions, etc.
13:49:36 [mjk]
q?
13:49:53 [dape]
ack dape
13:49:53 [dsr]
McCool: sebastian's proposal uses a URI path to avoid that
13:49:54 [sebastian]
q?
13:50:24 [McCool]
q+
13:50:51 [dsr]
mlagally: I am a bit puzzled about whether JSON-LD already provides a solution.
13:51:18 [dsr]
sebastian: would we need to use SHACL for this?
13:51:50 [dsr]
McCool: we could use "tm:required" here
13:52:20 [kaz]
q?
13:52:24 [kaz]
ack m
13:52:28 [kaz]
q+
13:52:29 [cris]
q+
13:52:31 [dsr]
sebastian asks mlagally if he is against this proposal
13:52:34 [dsr]
mlagally: no
13:53:08 [benfrancis]
FYI https://json-schema.org/draft/2020-12/json-schema-validation.html#rfc.section.6.5.3
13:53:12 [kaz]
ack k
13:53:14 [dsr]
McCool: I propose we have a context file for thing models
13:53:48 [dsr]
as distinct from thing descriptions
13:54:06 [kaz]
i/I propose/kaz: just to make sure, do you mean "required" here is affiliated with the context/namespace of "tm"?/
13:54:10 [dsr]
cris: +1 for this proposal
13:54:50 [dsr]
sebastian: I will raise this as a GitHub issue for further review
13:54:53 [sebastian]
q?
13:54:56 [sebastian]
ack c
13:55:46 [McCool]
q+
13:55:55 [dsr]
sebastian: the extends feature doesn't yet support importing sub-definitions
13:56:10 [McCool]
comment: likewise, "extends" could be "tm:extends", and only allowed in TMs...
13:57:05 [dsr]
sebastian: sometimes you want to borrow part of a model, but not the whole model
13:57:08 [cris]
we could move also ThingModel -> tm:ThingModel
13:57:44 [Citrullin]
+1 on tm:ThingModel, I also prefer some kind of prefix for it.
13:58:20 [dsr]
sebastian: JSON schema uses $ref, whilst SDF defines sdfRef
13:58:56 [dsr]
We need something like a macro inclusion ...
13:59:26 [dsr]
We could use tmRef or perhaps tm:Ref
13:59:55 [dsr]
McCool: this is basically a JSON pointer
14:00:23 [dsr]
adds +1
14:00:24 [sebastian]
q?
14:00:26 [sebastian]
ack m
14:01:04 [dsr]
sebastian: to clarify, this is only for tm not td
14:01:29 [dsr]
the imported definitions should be self-contained
14:01:57 [dsr]
McCool: we may need to allow for empty models in respect to validation
14:02:03 [cris]
q+
14:02:39 [dsr]
mjk: I agree with this
14:03:03 [kaz]
q?
14:03:05 [kaz]
ack c
14:03:29 [dsr]
cris: can you import a model and extend it?
14:03:32 [dsr]
sebastian: yes
14:03:41 [McCool]
q+
14:04:44 [dsr]
mjk talks through the extends behaviour
14:05:08 [dsr]
we should clarify what we mean
14:05:38 [dsr]
McCool: there is the potential for conflicts when importing stuff
14:06:00 [dsr]
I prefer to use ref to identify just what you want to pull in
14:06:25 [dsr]
mjk: the term "type" is preferable
14:06:31 [kaz]
q?
14:06:33 [kaz]
ack mc
14:07:02 [dsr]
McCool: "extends" would just indicate a dependency, but not the details
14:07:24 [dsr]
cris: why do we need "extends" in that case if it is redundant?
14:08:13 [dsr]
cris: tm:ref would override extends
14:08:44 [dsr]
mjk: we could say that ref doesn't change the meaning ...
14:09:22 [dsr]
"extends" brings some baggage we don't need
14:09:54 [dsr]
we need to define the processing model for interpreting TDs and TMs
14:09:57 [sebastian]
q?
14:09:58 [kaz]
q+
14:09:59 [McCool]
ack mc
14:10:20 [dsr]
sebastian: I will create an issue to gather further review
14:10:47 [dsr]
kaz: we want to think about compatibility between WoT TM and SDF, right?
14:11:08 [dsr]
we could explore this in the next plugfest
14:11:38 [McCool]
q+
14:11:42 [kaz]
ack k
14:12:36 [dsr]
sebastian cites the discussion on media type for Thing Models
14:12:43 [kaz]
ack mc
14:12:56 [dsr]
McCool: we need to include this in the IANA registration
14:13:18 [kaz]
q+
14:13:38 [dsr]
we need to register our use of JSON pointer for both TD and TM
14:14:03 [kaz]
q-
14:14:21 [kaz]
sk: need more discussion and continue
14:15:00 [dsr]
mjk provides feedback on OneDM and WoT plugfest
14:15:17 [kaz]
i|provides|topic: feedback from PlugFest about SDF-TM usage|
14:15:30 [dsr]
Exploration of generating TM/TD from oneDM's SDF
14:16:02 [dsr]
He cites a Modbus example
14:17:40 [dsr]
slide with model construction work flow
14:18:04 [dsr]
SDF doesn't really describe data schemas
14:18:23 [dsr]
it relies on the protocol and instance bindings
14:19:49 [dsr]
mjk: I also worked on semantic annotations
14:20:08 [sebastian]
q+
14:20:44 [dsr]
Some questions about terms
14:21:28 [dsr]
sebastian: your @type is from RDF, right
14:21:48 [dsr]
I would expect a reference to RDF representations
14:22:12 [sebastian]
ack s
14:22:19 [dsr]
mjk: @type just gives a URI and could point to Turtle or JSON-LD as needed
14:22:44 [dsr]
Use of RDF would enable use of RDF tools
14:22:59 [benfrancis]
q+
14:23:23 [dsr]
benfrancis: this is what schema.org does, and we've followed it for webthings
14:23:47 [kaz]
ack b
14:23:59 [victor]
from the JSON-LD rec: ""@type" value must a string, an array of strings, an empty object, or a default object."
14:24:41 [dsr]
mjk talks about gaps in the SDF conversion process
14:24:50 [victor]
the RDF data model makes a distinction between resources (identified by URIs) and representations (which has a specific content types and "represent" resources)
14:24:57 [dsr]
some changes for SDF 1.1
14:25:16 [dsr]
JSON schema required for input and output elements
14:25:35 [victor]
so, adding a content type to an RDF class shouldn't be possible
14:26:46 [dsr]
mjk: also we now have sdfChoice for enums
14:27:50 [dsr]
and a means to annotate generated TD/TM from the SDF source references
14:28:34 [dsr]
some stuff to do with fixed point decimal numbers
14:29:26 [dsr]
along with min/max and scaling
14:29:59 [dsr]
an open issue about non-linear scales, e.g. log scales
14:30:55 [dsr]
The Modbus experiments were helpful
14:31:11 [dsr]
some suggestions for vocabulary
14:31:49 [dsr]
need to specify precision for Modbus data, e.g. 16 bits
14:32:22 [dsr]
need to map array contents to properties
14:32:44 [sebastian]
q?
14:33:06 [dsr]
sebastian: thanks for sharing this with us, please share the slides too
14:33:10 [sebastian]
https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f
14:33:48 [dsr]
Topic: Canonicalisation
14:34:09 [dsr]
mlagally: here are a few slides ...
14:34:53 [dsr]
architecture discussion now as GitHub issues
14:35:44 [dsr]
We're interested in canonical forms of TDs
14:36:06 [dsr]
useful for TD comparisons, crypto etc.
14:37:03 [dsr]
JSON has a canonicalization scheme RFC8785
14:37:35 [dsr]
we need additional rules and clarifications, e.g. default values
14:38:15 [dsr]
prefixes, array ordering, structural ordering
14:38:55 [dsr]
McCool: we also need to decide when we have multiple ways to express things
14:39:27 [dsr]
Further discussion needed
14:39:34 [kaz]
q?
14:39:40 [dsr]
mlagally: now let's talk about signed TDs
14:39:59 [dsr]
essentially sign canonicalised form
14:40:24 [dsr]
see also RFC7515 JSON web signature
14:41:26 [dsr]
envisage need to update the signing algorithms
14:41:55 [dape]
q+ to default values are omitted. 2 questiosn: 1. remove default values 2. likelihood to have additional default values
14:42:17 [dsr]
open issues around self contained TDs and TMs
14:43:18 [dsr]
McCool talks about role of URLs in signing
14:44:34 [dsr]
McCool: I don't think we need to rely on JSON-LD canonicalisation
14:45:04 [dsr]
Some challenges with strings
14:45:18 [kaz]
q?
14:45:20 [kaz]
ack d
14:45:20 [Zakim]
dape, you wanted to default values are omitted. 2 questiosn: 1. remove default values 2. likelihood to have additional default values
14:45:49 [dsr]
dape: omitting default values, means having to prune them before signing
14:46:38 [dsr]
McCool: if a property has the default value, we should omit it as it is redundant
14:47:00 [sebastian]
q+
14:47:22 [sebastian]
q-
14:47:32 [dsr]
Defaults can be changed at major version updates
14:48:10 [dsr]
McCool: signing involves chaining
14:48:27 [dsr]
the signature says who you have to trust
14:49:16 [dsr]
we need to canonicalise relative URIs etc.
14:49:17 [dape]
ack dape
14:49:59 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:50:35 [dsr]
mlagally: forcing alphabetically sorted statements is bad for intelligibility
14:50:47 [dsr]
better to specify ordering
14:51:29 [dsr]
McCool: I will prepare a pull request
14:51:52 [kaz]
present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:52:06 [dsr]
Topic: IoT Schema
14:52:44 [dsr]
The IoT schema CG is rechartering
14:53:27 [dsr]
we're more aligned with web of things that schema.org focus on web search
14:53:34 [dsr]
s/that/than
14:54:19 [dsr]
The idea is to support a catalogue of device descriptions
14:54:51 [dsr]
There are a lot of existing models we can import
14:55:45 [dsr]
we want to normalise the models from the heterogeneous representations
14:56:24 [dsr]
is there enough critical mass, can we build a new consortium?
14:56:56 [dsr]
from those already in W3C
14:56:56 [benfrancis]
q+
14:57:19 [dsr]
we're looking for people to sign up ...
14:58:27 [dsr]
benfrancis: I am very supportive of this work, we have 20 plus models for webthings
14:58:41 [dsr]
happy to contribute those models
14:59:10 [kaz]
q?
14:59:12 [dsr]
what is the overlap with thing models? I will create a GitHub issue to discuss this further
14:59:17 [dsr]
mjk: good question
14:59:38 [dsr]
sebastian: +1
14:59:39 [kaz]
ack b
15:00:06 [kaz]
+1
15:00:31 [benfrancis]
FYI https://webthings.io/schemas
15:00:40 [kaz]
q+
15:00:52 [dsr]
sebastian: we could include examples in the TD spec
15:01:18 [sebastian]
https://www.w3.org/community/iotschema/#
15:01:27 [dsr]
Everyone is welcome to join the CG
15:01:56 [victor]
I've got to go. Have a good day, all
15:02:29 [sebastian]
q?
15:02:34 [sebastian]
ack k
15:02:37 [dsr]
kaz makes a comment on where work takes place
15:03:24 [dsr]
sebastian wraps up today's meeting.
15:03:24 [kaz]
s/place/place, e.g., we WoT group work on requirements and ask the CG(s) and SDF guys to work on actual spec work instead :)/
15:03:46 [dsr]
McCool: we have a tight schedule tomorrow, please email me any agenda changes
15:03:49 [kaz]
s/e.g.,/e.g., possibly/
15:04:00 [dsr]
sebastian: no WoT calls next week
15:04:09 [kaz]
i/we have/topic: Tomorrow/
15:04:40 [dsr]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html dsr
15:05:27 [kaz]
[adjourned]
15:05:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:05:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:06:11 [Ege]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/146
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