12:01:55 RRSAgent has joined #wot 12:01:55 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-irc 12:02:00 McCool has joined #wot 12:02:31 Meeting: WoT-IG/WG vF2F Meeting in March Day 5 12:02:40 Citrullin has joined #wot 12:02:42 Chair: Sebastian/McCool 12:03:08 mjk has joined #wot 12:03:08 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh 12:03:26 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally 12:03:45 dape has joined #wot 12:03:48 present+ Michael_McCool, Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay 12:03:52 mlagally has joined #wot 12:03:56 zakim, who is on the call? 12:03:56 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Christian_Glomb, Dave_Raggett, Ege_Korkan, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh, Kunihiko_Toumura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, 12:03:59 ... Philipp_Blum, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay 12:04:30 scribenick: dsr 12:04:30 scribenick: dsr 12:04:45 topic: Scribes 12:04:58 FarshidT has joined #wot 12:05:20 victor has joined #wot 12:05:34 s/topic: Scribes// 12:05:53 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_March_2021#Wednesday_March_24 12:06:08 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 12:06:11 topic: opening / agenda 12:06:56 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-24-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf Opening slides 12:07:19 i/topic: o/scribenick: FarshidT/ 12:07:24 q+ 12:07:54 sk: reminder: contribute to use case PRs and issues 12:08:18 q? 12:08:43 q+ 12:08:44 ... profile discussions in issue #73 12:08:51 q+ 12:09:34 ... We may need to increase the profiling time. One hour is often not enough. 12:09:45 i|reminder|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-42-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf updated Opening slides| 12:10:10 present+ Klaus_Hartke 12:10:21 q? 12:10:37 mmc: there are also a number of discovery issues requiring feedback. Editorial ones may be merged today. 12:10:50 q? 12:10:52 ack mc 12:11:00 ack mccool 12:11:05 cg: the listing PR should not be merged yet. It is still under discussion. 12:12:00 ack ml 12:12:33 ack k 12:12:39 ml: the next architecture call, after Easter (15 days) will be 2 hours and dedicated to profiling discussion. 12:13:01 Kaz we cannot hear you? 12:13:42 sk: today's agenda will cover: 12:13:51 ... What's new in TD 1.1 12:13:59 ... Next TD publications 12:14:06 ... Thing model 12:14:16 ... TD canonicalization 12:14:26 ... News from iotschema.org 12:15:01 s/model/Model/ 12:15:32 s/15 days/April 22/ 12:16:34 sk: the profiling discussions should continue on the issue tracker and in PRs. Three weeks break is a long time. 12:16:47 q? 12:16:55 dezell has joined #wot 12:17:01 present+ David_Ezell 12:17:23 q? 12:17:31 q+ 12:18:09 ack b 12:18:15 kaz: Ben has some long and reasonable comments. 12:18:20 present+ Ben_Francis 12:18:57 kevin has joined #wot 12:18:59 bf: Can create a PR with the proposal 12:19:33 mmc: Better discuss and resolve open issues before creating a PR. Otherwise the discussion will be moved to the PR. 12:20:08 ryuichi has joined #wot 12:20:13 mmc: It is best to have small PRs with concrete proposals what we can quickly agree on and move on. 12:20:26 s/what/that/ 12:20:31 zkis has joined #wot 12:20:33 kaz: @@@ 12:22:40 present+ Zoltan_Kis 12:22:44 s/@@@/we should be careful how to handle the contributions. starting with summarized comments from each contributor on Issue 73 with possible disposition of all the comments would be useful for the discussion on April 22./ 12:22:45 q? 12:22:47 topic: TD 1.1 12:24:35 q+ 12:24:47 rrsagent, make log public 12:24:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:24:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:25:00 q? 12:25:09 q+ Ege 12:25:10 sk: added (un)observeallproperties type for op 12:25:28 q+ 12:25:33 ack ege 12:26:07 ek: Is this referring to when "any" property is changed or when "all" properties are changed? 12:26:30 ack e 12:26:36 Ege has joined #wot 12:26:42 ek: will the response include all changed properties or only those that have changed? 12:26:54 q? 12:26:58 ack z 12:27:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:27:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:27:53 zk: If the implementation doesn't support an observeall in a single transaction, should it fail or fall back to another op? 12:28:11 sk: if the implementation doesn't support it, then it should not advertise it in the TD. 12:28:16 q? 12:28:19 ack b 12:28:25 q+ 12:28:30 present+ Kevin_Olotu 12:28:40 bf: if there is observeall, should there also be subscribe all events? 12:28:50 present+ Philipp_Blum 12:28:56 present+ Tetsushi_Matsuda 12:29:15 present+ Victor_Charpenay 12:29:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:29:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:30:02 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 12:30:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:30:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:30:32 bf: this currently exists in WebThings and also the directory spec. We may need an equivalent to this for events. Also, we may need to get past events. 12:31:08 mmc: It makes sense, but need to discuss in a separate issue. 12:31:39 sk: This may be offered by a subprotocol, but adding everything to the top level spec may not be appropriate. 12:31:44 q? 12:31:54 ack ege 12:32:56 ek: The op values are not properly explained. It would be useful to add a table (instead of sentences in a paragraph) to explain individual values. 12:33:10 sk: It is a good point. 12:33:21 q+ 12:33:31 ack m 12:33:52 mmc: It will be useful, but the descriptions should be protocol agnostic. 12:33:56 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance 12:34:48 sk: Next change is the relations table 12:35:04 q+ 12:35:10 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#link 5.3.4.1 Link 12:35:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:35:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:35:47 ... possible values are listed. Mostly based on existing IANA link relation registrations. 12:36:17 q+ 12:36:18 s/topic: TD 1.1/topic: What's new in TD 1.1/ 12:36:26 matsuda has joined #wot 12:36:34 mmc: we also have a relation type used in discovery (describedby), which didn't make to this list 12:37:03 ... extends is strange in the given context 12:37:05 q+ 12:37:14 q? 12:37:19 my question: can you elaborate on 'controlledBy'? 12:38:05 ack mc 12:38:39 ... proxy-to may be redundant. Need to check if the use is different with the existing proxy relation type. 12:39:44 vc: What is the purpose of controlledBy relation type? 12:39:53 i/added (un)/subtopic: Form/ 12:40:09 q? 12:40:13 ack 12:40:22 ack victor 12:40:23 sk: controlledBy refers to devices controlled by another Thing. 12:40:40 q? 12:40:44 ack b 12:40:45 i|added (un)|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#form 5.3.4.2 Form| 12:41:19 i|should there also be sub|subtopic: EventAffordance| 12:41:25 bf: is manifest used in the right context? 12:41:50 i|should there also be sub|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#eventaffordance 5.3.1.5 EventAffordance| 12:41:52 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/links.html#link-type-manifest 12:42:08 i|next change is|subtopic: Link| 12:42:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:42:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:42:25 mmc: I think the IANA explanation specifies the manifest format, which may not be TD. Need to look into that, 12:42:28 q? 12:42:31 s/,/./ 12:42:50 bf: Will create an issue to discuss the manifest relation type 12:43:09 q+ 12:43:10 i|Next change is|subtopic: Link| 12:43:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:43:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:43:26 sk: Next change: exlusiveMinimum and exclusiveMaximum 12:44:01 i/Next change: e/subtopic: exclusiveMinimum and exclusiveMximum/ 12:44:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:44:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:44:45 mmc: We need to look into the discussions in SDF. They have been working on these for a while. We should make sure we don't have any contradicting definitions. 12:45:09 q+ 12:45:17 i|Next change: e|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#numberschema 5.3.2.4 NumberSchema| 12:45:23 Next change: one or more AdditionalExpectedResponse 12:45:41 i|Next change: on|topic: AdditoinalExpectdResponse| 12:45:52 q+ 12:46:30 i|Next change: on|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#additionalexpectedresponse 5.3.4.4 AdditionalExpectedResponse| 12:46:34 ack mc 12:46:52 each AdditionalExpectedResponse may have success, contentType. The schema field is currently under discussion and may be removed. 12:47:11 s/each/... each/ 12:47:27 mmc: The success if false by default 12:47:40 ... the schema may be moved outside and made reusable 12:48:33 bf: What is the use case for this addition? 12:48:35 q? 12:48:39 ack b 12:49:02 mmc: There could be multiple success responses distinguishable by means other than the content type. 12:49:28 ... The existing schema did not allow defining that and also the various error responses. 12:49:57 sk: Next change: URI assignment for authentication location 12:50:08 i|Next|subtopic: uri assignment for authentication location| 12:50:26 q? 12:50:38 i|Next|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#securityscheme 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme| 12:51:02 mmc: there is a PR right now to include the body 12:51:20 subtopic: Thing Model features 12:51:32 s/include the body/extend the body to include a JSON pointer into the data schema/ 12:51:50 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing-model 10. Thing Model 12:51:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:51:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:52:05 sk: concepts, modeling tools 12:52:33 ... Modelling tools: versioning, extension and import, placeholder, required 12:52:44 q? 12:53:18 q+ 12:53:21 ... derivation to TD instances 12:53:47 q+ 12:54:05 ... the algorithm and process. This is subject to change. The explanation will be improved. 12:54:30 s/topic: Additional/subtopic: Additional/ 12:54:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:54:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:54:43 mmc: "required" field isn't in TD, so TD Model cannot be considered as a partial TD. 12:55:11 q+ to required part of JSON properties 12:55:13 s/topic: Additoinal/subtopic: Additional/ 12:55:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:55:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:55:19 q+ 12:55:25 ack mc 12:56:19 ack b 12:56:56 q+ 12:57:13 bf: TM adds complexity to implementations. The complexity should ideally be shifted to the cloud. 12:57:37 present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura 12:58:08 sk: TM is not meant to result in a TD during runtime. It is mostly useful create TDs during development/configuration/startup time. 12:58:23 s/create/to create/ 12:59:11 q+ 12:59:49 bf: it is not necessary to turn this into a standard. Also, requiring clients to be able to process them add complexity. 13:00:23 q? 13:00:32 sk: Standardizing it makes it easy to reuse models 13:00:36 ack dape 13:00:36 dape, you wanted to required part of JSON properties 13:01:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:01:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:02:15 dp: The inheritance may need to be reworked. Some thing are restricted in TD but allowed in TM. We need to improve this to simplify validations. 13:04:32 ack ml 13:04:33 ... ideally, we should start from an abstract model and define other things on top. 13:06:22 ml: We should maintain the completeness of TD with semantic annotations. 13:07:08 q+ 13:07:08 ack ml 13:07:09 ack k 13:07:10 kaz: @@@ 13:07:12 ack mc 13:08:05 s/@@@/technically, TM is not part of the normative Thing Description features, so probably it would be cleaner to split it (=TM) into a separate document on best practices or implementation guides./ 13:08:19 q? 13:09:14 mmc: The TMs need to be addressable if we want to maintain them in the directory. 13:10:56 i/The TMs/sk: TM was "Thing Template" within the Appendix for the Thing Description ver. 1.0, and it's becoming more official these days and moved to the section 10. However, agree there is still a possibility to make it a separate spec./ 13:11:06 q+ 13:11:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:11:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:11:12 bf: Do consumers need to understand TM if they come across a TD which links to a TM. The TD is incomplete with the TM. 13:11:46 i/technically/scribenick: kaz/ 13:11:47 s/TM./TM. See Example 50/ 13:11:57 i/The TMs need/scribenick: FarshidT/ 13:12:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:12:54 q? 13:12:57 ack b 13:12:59 ack Mc 13:13:06 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-50 Example 50 13:13:44 mmc: We need to define validation to check this. There are also security considerations. The type definition is just to check if the TD is compatible with the model. 13:14:03 ... The TD should be self-contained. 13:14:45 ... If there are required fields in the TM, should we fetch the TM to validate the TD? This needs further discussion. 13:15:27 sk: Yes, the TD is self container and the type link is just for validation. 13:15:51 bf: WebThings does this kind of validation with semantic annotations. So there might be some redundancy here. 13:15:58 sk: Yes we need to check this 13:16:13 subtopic: Publication Roadmap 13:16:42 sk: next working draft by end of April 13:16:50 s/subtopic:/topic:/ 13:17:48 ... we have many open issues and with Easter holidays in between, it may not be realistic to have all included. 13:18:47 q+ 13:19:01 ... regarding the candidate recommendation (CR), we need at least one more plugfest to test everything 13:19:17 q+ 13:20:50 ack b 13:21:06 ml: Adding vocabulary and links for profile will be easy 13:22:01 bf: What is the deadline for adding things to TD 1.1 and what goes to TD 2? 13:22:27 cris has joined #wot 13:22:37 mmc: We are behind the schedule. We should have a solid draft by June 1st. 13:23:33 sk: We should discuss on issue tracker to know what is realistic. We also need a plugfest to test some new features. 13:23:47 mmc: We may need a plugfest in June. October is too late. 13:24:41 q+ 13:24:54 ml: canonical and signing can be included in profiles and moved to TD later. 13:25:30 mmc: I think canonicalization belongs to TD. It is not so difficult to add. Also, we need a formal validation process. 13:26:38 +1 13:26:46 q? 13:26:49 q+ 13:27:04 ack m 13:28:28 mmc: Deadline proposal: May 15th: complete draft. June 1st: pre-CR and plugfest 13:29:56 ml: canonicalization will be simple if we follow existing specs 13:30:31 mmc: validation is a lot of work, but not so complicated 13:31:38 mmc: validation is important before storing TDs in a directory. 13:32:25 kaz: We need implementations too for the CR. 13:32:37 q+ 13:32:49 mmc: The plugfest will show the implementations status 13:32:50 kaz: provide assertion lists and identify features at risk 13:33:09 q? 13:33:12 ack k 13:33:17 ack e 13:33:21 june plugfest should probably be a "testfest" and should have the goal of generating a draft implementation report 13:33:56 ek: there should be a deadline to have feature-freeze to allow stable implementations 13:33:59 ... and can then identify at-risk items 13:34:20 scribenick: dsr 13:34:48 sk: 10 minutes break 13:35:22 s/We need implementations too for the CR./Please remember that we need an implementation report plan doc (including assertion list) and also need to identify features at risk for CR transition./ 13:35:37 [10-min break] 13:35:45 rrsaggent, draft minutes 13:35:55 s/rrsaggent, draft minutes// 13:36:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:36:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/24-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:44:21 scribenick: dsr 13:44:48 sebastian shows slides summarising issues arising from the plugfest 13:45:09 i/sebastian/topic: Thing Model/ 13:45:17 q+ 13:45:33 The required term is from JSON schema 13:46:07 but is at the same level as properties 13:46:32 McCool: move it up a level 13:47:09 q+ to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts 13:47:19 It is at the wrong place and would preclude properties named "required" 13:47:21 ack m 13:47:39 to dape: it can just apply to all interactions 13:48:02 sebastian cites work with SDF 13:48:10 although... then we can't have properties and actions with the same name. Sigh... 13:48:46 (anyhow... sebastian's proposals seems to address this) 13:48:53 q? 13:48:56 ack d 13:48:56 dape, you wanted to one level up causes issues with properties/actions conflicts 13:49:26 dape notes that moving "required" up a level would preclude having the same name for properties and actions, etc. 13:49:36 q? 13:49:53 ack dape 13:49:53 McCool: sebastian's proposal uses a URI path to avoid that 13:49:54 q? 13:50:24 q+ 13:50:51 mlagally: I am a bit puzzled about whether JSON-LD already provides a solution. 13:51:18 sebastian: would we need to use SHACL for this? 13:51:50 McCool: we could use "tm:required" here 13:52:20 q? 13:52:24 ack m 13:52:28 q+ 13:52:29 q+ 13:52:31 sebastian asks mlagally if he is against this proposal 13:52:34 mlagally: no 13:53:08 FYI https://json-schema.org/draft/2020-12/json-schema-validation.html#rfc.section.6.5.3 13:53:12 ack k 13:53:14 McCool: I propose we have a context file for thing models 13:53:48 as distinct from thing descriptions 13:54:06 i/I propose/kaz: just to make sure, do you mean "required" here is affiliated with the context/namespace of "tm"?/ 13:54:10 cris: +1 for this proposal 13:54:50 sebastian: I will raise this as a GitHub issue for further review 13:54:53 q? 13:54:56 ack c 13:55:46 q+ 13:55:55 sebastian: the extends feature doesn't yet support importing sub-definitions 13:56:10 comment: likewise, "extends" could be "tm:extends", and only allowed in TMs... 13:57:05 sebastian: sometimes you want to borrow part of a model, but not the whole model 13:57:08 we could move also ThingModel -> tm:ThingModel 13:57:44 +1 on tm:ThingModel, I also prefer some kind of prefix for it. 13:58:20 sebastian: JSON schema uses $ref, whilst SDF defines sdfRef 13:58:56 We need something like a macro inclusion ... 13:59:26 We could use tmRef or perhaps tm:Ref 13:59:55 McCool: this is basically a JSON pointer 14:00:23 adds +1 14:00:24 q? 14:00:26 ack m 14:01:04 sebastian: to clarify, this is only for tm not td 14:01:29 the imported definitions should be self-contained 14:01:57 McCool: we may need to allow for empty models in respect to validation 14:02:03 q+ 14:02:39 mjk: I agree with this 14:03:03 q? 14:03:05 ack c 14:03:29 cris: can you import a model and extend it? 14:03:32 sebastian: yes 14:03:41 q+ 14:04:44 mjk talks through the extends behaviour 14:05:08 we should clarify what we mean 14:05:38 McCool: there is the potential for conflicts when importing stuff 14:06:00 I prefer to use ref to identify just what you want to pull in 14:06:25 mjk: the term "type" is preferable 14:06:31 q? 14:06:33 ack mc 14:07:02 McCool: "extends" would just indicate a dependency, but not the details 14:07:24 cris: why do we need "extends" in that case if it is redundant? 14:08:13 cris: tm:ref would override extends 14:08:44 mjk: we could say that ref doesn't change the meaning ... 14:09:22 "extends" brings some baggage we don't need 14:09:54 we need to define the processing model for interpreting TDs and TMs 14:09:57 q? 14:09:58 q+ 14:09:59 ack mc 14:10:20 sebastian: I will create an issue to gather further review 14:10:47 kaz: we want to think about compatibility between WoT TM and SDF, right? 14:11:08 we could explore this in the next plugfest 14:11:38 q+ 14:11:42 ack k 14:12:36 sebastian cites the discussion on media type for Thing Models 14:12:43 ack mc 14:12:56 McCool: we need to include this in the IANA registration 14:13:18 q+ 14:13:38 we need to register our use of JSON pointer for both TD and TM 14:14:03 q- 14:14:21 sk: need more discussion and continue 14:15:00 mjk provides feedback on OneDM and WoT plugfest 14:15:17 i|provides|topic: feedback from PlugFest about SDF-TM usage| 14:15:30 Exploration of generating TM/TD from oneDM's SDF 14:16:02 He cites a Modbus example 14:17:40 slide with model construction work flow 14:18:04 SDF doesn't really describe data schemas 14:18:23 it relies on the protocol and instance bindings 14:19:49 mjk: I also worked on semantic annotations 14:20:08 q+ 14:20:44 Some questions about terms 14:21:28 sebastian: your @type is from RDF, right 14:21:48 I would expect a reference to RDF representations 14:22:12 ack s 14:22:19 mjk: @type just gives a URI and could point to Turtle or JSON-LD as needed 14:22:44