Meeting minutes
Makoto: Just FYI - I filed an GitHub issue on the metadata issue we discussed in our last meeting
… will forward it to you
[Makoto leaves]
[Debugging Skype connection]
Welcome Zhengyu!
xfq: new task force member, Zhengyu!
All: Welcome, Zhengyu!
https://
Zhengyu: thank you for all the warm welcome
Go through the pull request list
https://
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/347
xfq: Add line adjustment in Glossary
xfq: I made some changes
All: looks good
xfq: I'll merge it
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/pull/356
xfq: Richard has created new 'home pages' for all of the lreq repositories
xfq: For repos like clreq and jlreq, he created a new home.md file which we can link to as https://
Eric: our chairs are Bobby and Yijun?
xfq: yes
Eric: Yijun hasn't attended the meeting for a long time
Bobby: does our task force still exist?
xfq: According to https://
xfq: it has expired
xfq: however, because we are not a formal working group and there is no formal recharter process, it is okay not to renew the charter
Eric: "End date" of our task force is "31 December 2016"
xfq: If you want to revise it, we can revise it
xfq: but note that it is informal
Eric: I think it’s better to update it
Eric: Or delete this link
xfq: I'll discuss with Richard
Go through the issue list
https://
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/355
xfq: The ruby-related terminology used in clreq, jlreq, and css-ruby documents is rather confusing
xfq: and I hope we change the terminology to be as consistent as possible
xfq: the CSSWG will read both clreq and jlreq, and they will also read css-ruby
xfq: the meaning of css-ruby's "interlinear annotations" is not exactly the same as ours
xfq: and the meaning of jlreq's 行間注 is not exactly the same as ours
xfq: CSS has such a concept: inter-character annotations
xfq: we don't have that
[xfq explains the issue]
Bobby: Yijun spent a lot of time discussing this issue in the beginning of clreq
[Bobby explains the history]
Bobby: we might want to ask Yijun
Bobby: we can remove the term 行間批語 and related content
[Discuss the definition of 行間批語 and the differences between 行間批語 and 行間注]
Eric: Can we use HTML/CSS ruby to achieve 行間批語?
Bobby: the rendering is a bit different from ruby
Eric: We don't need to mention 行間批語 for now
Eric: if 行間批語 only appears in ancient books, we can remove it.
Eric: Otherwise the document is too messy.
Eric: How about changing 行间注 to 行间注音?
Eric: and change "interlinear annotations" to "ruby"
Bobby: 注音 or 标音?
Eric: 行间标音
… consistent with CSS
xfq: CSS also has the term interlinear annotations
xfq: but it means annotation containers that are not inter-character annotations (i.e., horizontal Bopomofo)
xfq: interlinear annotations in clreq include horizontal Bopomofo
Zhengyu: @@
Eric: vertical Bopomofo is not considered inter-character annotations
Eric: what about just using 标音?
Eric: without 行间
Zhengyu: it's from Japanese
xfq: it originated from the name of the 5.5pt font size in British printing
Zhengyu: But it has a strong Japanese attribute here
Zhengyu: because the Japanese borrow this word to express this kind of annotation
Eric: In any case, we can use the word "ruby" instead of creating a new term
Eric: Do you mean to use the word "annotation"?
Zhengyu: "Zhuyin" or "Biaoyin" looks good to me too
Zhengyu: But with "ruby" we don’t have to create a new word
Zhengyu: Because we inevitably have to be exposed to HTML ruby and related terminology
Eric: Then we call it 标音 in Chinese
Eric: We should not use 注音 because there will be ambiguity with Bopomofo
Eric: I think "ruby" is fine for English.
Eric: If you find it inappropriate, we can also use "biaoyin". But in this case we have to create a new term.
Eric: If we use "ruby" the English term is more unified between jlreq and clreq
Eric: there are two kinds of ruby: pinyin and Bopomofo
Bobby: We should let Yijun know after we update the terminology
Eric: then the Chinese for interlinear annotations annotations is 行间标音
Eric: and the Chinese for inter-character annotations is 字间标音
xfq: Do we still need the word 行間批語?
Eric: we can remove it
xfq: it's in 3.3.1.2 Indicating Meaning or Other Additional Information
xfq: in 3.3.2 Overview of Interlinear Annotation Positioning
xfq: and in 3.3.7 Positioning of Interlinear Comments
Positioning of Bilingual Annotations
Eric: About 3.3.6 Positioning of Bilingual Annotations
Eric: What is this section about?
Eric: I do not understand
Bobby: This is mainly about light novels
https://
Eric: related ^
Eric: I know what you mean, but the name is wrong?
Eric: do you mean something like https://
Eric: You want to emphasize that ruby is not just pinyin or Bopomofo, it can also be English etc., right?
Eric: If yes we can keep this (3.3.1.2.1)
Eric: and remove 行间批语
Bobby: @@
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/355
Eric: back to #355
Eric: We are going to change 行间注 to 标音
Eric: We need to change a lot
Eric: Regarding the reorganization of the overall structure of 3.3 Interlinear annotations
Eric: should we discuss it in #355 or create a new issue?
xfq: I suggest to file a new issue, #355 is part of that larger issue
xfq: The reorganization of 3.3 and the problem of terminology are two issues
xfq: it is confusing to discuss them in the same issue
Eric: OK
Eric: Yijun Chen wrote the Bopomofo part and Liang Hai wrote the pinyin part
Eric: We can move 行间批语 to a new section in Chapter 4 or just remove it
xfq: @@simple-ruby and accessibility@@
Zhengyu: 标音 does not mean exactly the same as ruby in jlreq
Zhengyu: They didn’t say ruby was for indicating how to read kanji, they just said it was a special kind of typography
https://
[Discuss the definition of ruby]
Eric: Do we want to make a new word for 标音?
Zhengyu: I agree with what Bobby said, 标音 is not exactly equivalent to ruby in jlreq.
Zhengyu: If we think that these two words correspond to each other, it will be difficult for us to @@
Bobby: @@
Eric: If we don’t use the word 标音, we need to find another word
Zhengyu: we can create a new word, biaoyin
Eric: I'm OK with this, but we still don’t have a word corresponding to ruby
Bobby: We can talk about the history of terminology in this section
Zhengyu: agreed
Bobby: please assign it to me
Eric: OK, we can review it
Eric: The main problem now is that there is no Chinese word equivalent to "ruby"
Eric: what should we do?
Bobby: pinyin and Bopomofo was already counted as ruby in a document published in 1999
[Discuss the difference and Venn diagram between ruby and 标音]
Eric: I can understand Zhengyu's concerns
Eric: But can we still call it 标音 and treat other situations (like light novels) as special cases of 标音
Bobby: double-sided ruby is also a special case of ruby
[Discuss exclamatory question mark, repeating question marks and repeating exclamation marks]
[Discuss the symbol of death]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/39
Eric: I made a new image because our current illustration is not correct
xfq: the new image looks good to me
xfq: the font is different
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/355
Eric: back to #355
Bobby: I will make big changes to 3.3
… rewrite this section
… please file an issue and assign it to me
Eric: So we *still* haven't found the Chinese corresponding to "ruby"
Eric: In order not to make the document too complicated, I suggest that we use 标音
[Discuss the differences between the term "interlinear annotations" in clreq and css-ruby]
Zhengyu: Can we correspond with css-ruby?
Zhengyu: @@
Eric: We don’t need to create overloading with css-ruby's terms
Eric: It would be inconvenient if there is no suitable word in Chinese to describe ruby
Eric: and this is a real problem
Eric: what about 小字? 卢比?
Eric: 珍字?
Zhengyu: 珍字 looks good to me
https://
Zhengyu: see ^
Eric: it originated from William Gamble in the American Presbyterian Mission Press
Eric: the term 珍字 was used from 18xx to 198x
Eric: But now the hào units is more popular than the names like 珍字
[Discuss the hào units]
Eric: We spent too much time discussing this issue
Bobby: Solved a big issue!
Eric: 珍字 is a noun
xfq: @@
Zhengyu: 珍字 can correspond to "ruby" in jlreq and css-ruby
xfq: @@
xfq: we need to discuss the usage of 珍字 in the future
Next teleconference time
April 14 (Wednesday), 19:00-20:00 (UTC+8)