23:26:17 RRSAgent has joined #epub 23:26:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/18-epub-irc 23:26:19 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:26:20 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe 23:26:29 meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon 23:26:47 date: 2021-03-18 23:26:55 chair: dauwhe 23:26:58 guest+ dauwhe 23:33:59 dlazin has joined #epub 23:34:12 dlazin has left #epub 23:40:38 dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Mar/0014.html 23:53:27 wendyreid has joined #epub 23:55:51 MattChan has joined #epub 23:58:42 shiestyle has joined #epub 23:59:06 MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub 23:59:14 present+ 23:59:16 toshiakikoike has joined #epub 23:59:29 present+ 23:59:36 present+ 00:00:16 present+ 00:00:58 duga has joined #epub 00:01:14 present+ 00:01:41 present+ 00:01:50 dlazin has joined #epub 00:02:26 scribe+ 00:03:26 BenSchroeter has joined #epub 00:04:07 dauwhe: we have several new people here today 00:04:11 present+ 00:04:25 dlazin: i'm a technical writer, documentation expert 00:04:49 mgarrish has joined #epub 00:05:04 ... i could also maybe help with testing 00:05:31 rob smith: i'm from ebsco, we're an educational content aggregator 00:05:39 ... here representing our ebooks group 00:05:51 present+ 00:06:09 ... particularly around a11y, and George's gh issue about virtual page numbers 00:06:24 Topic: Virtual Page Numbers 00:06:24 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1542 00:06:36 dauwhe: we discussed this issue on the last call without reaching a resolution 00:07:02 ... we recognize the utility of page numbers, esp. in educational environments 00:07:14 ... but different RS all do their own thing when faced with epub without pagelist 00:07:27 ... but that's not really something our WG can standardize 00:07:45 ... any further comments to bring us up to speed? 00:08:11 wendyreid: we've had a lot of feedback from RS side, i.e. from Hadrien 00:08:33 ... but does the utility of standardizing outweigh the difficulty? 00:08:51 rob smith: we have our own RS as part of our web platform, so we understand the difficulty 00:08:57 q? 00:09:22 ... in our market, page nums and addressable locations are critical for academic citations 00:09:26 q+ 00:09:38 q+ 00:09:39 ... our buyers prefer PDF because of the predictable page numbers 00:10:20 ack shi 00:10:20 ... if you're using epub without page numbers, the risk of plagiarism is higher because its harder to precisely locate citations 00:10:44 shiestyle addresses our Japanese members in Japanese 00:12:23 q+ 00:12:33 shiestyle: toshiakikoike from Voyager (a jp RS) says that it is difficult to implement these features 00:12:43 ... TOC serves a similar use case 00:13:18 rob smith: I don't think a toc is suitable substitution 00:13:34 ... the toc is too sparse for a book of, say, 300 pages 00:13:47 q+ 00:13:57 ... the technical limitations are clear, but maybe we could have some sort of a non-normative recommendation? 00:14:19 ack duga 00:14:35 q+ 00:14:40 duga: we already have pagelists so the publishers can implement that 00:14:50 ... the question is what the RS should do in the absence of pagelist 00:14:58 ... to provide consistent virtual page numbers 00:15:11 ack wen 00:15:13 dauwhe: yes that's it, but what steps should we take to get there? 00:15:51 wendyreid: i think one of the struggles is we technically have pagelist as an established method of doing this, but obviously its either not enough or there is something about it not meeting the need 00:16:32 q+ 00:16:37 ... maybe we could use something else as a kind of standardized, periodic locator? 00:17:00 ... this may fall under best practices, but it seems there is a clear desire for a standardized practice 00:17:05 ack dl 00:17:26 dlazin: it seems that page numbers specifically are an artifact of printed books 00:17:37 ... in a lot of cases we want to preserve that correspondence to print 00:17:45 ... but there are other ways to locate inside a book 00:17:59 ... but also RSes have implemented their own solutions 00:18:18 ... so, as an alternative, we could use, for example, paragraph numbering (i.e. what legal texts do) 00:18:25 ack mg 00:18:30 ... this wouldn't interfere with the existing page number system 00:19:01 mgarrish: what George was looking at was an algorithm for inserting page numbers automatically 00:19:27 ... but maybe this is a task for a separate taskforce, with the goal of creating a note or something 00:19:29 ack da 00:19:39 ... rather than using our call time to do this 00:20:02 dauwhe: it doesn't feel realistic to me to expect RS to change their existing way of doing things 00:20:17 ... e.g. ibooks will count the number of screens and repaginate for font size 00:20:24 ... and that goes against what a lot of other people want 00:21:03 ... it seems possible that we could come up with a tool to do a thing to epubs and produce a pagelist from that in the absence of a pre-prepared one 00:21:21 ... maybe a TF or the CG would like to take a shot at this 00:21:36 q+ 00:21:49 ... changing RS behaviour is kind of outside spec 00:22:04 ... but we could experiment with that tool as something to help out content creators 00:22:08 ack we 00:22:22 wendyreid: i think a TF is a good idea 00:22:54 ... agreed that we probably won't change behaviour for major RSes 00:23:00 ... its an industry thing 00:23:07 q? 00:23:38 ... trade publishers probably won't be as interested in this as educational side (VitalSource, Ebsco, etc.) 00:23:58 ... we could well get implementors of this from the right crowd of publishers 00:24:53 dauwhe: does anyone want to try to put together a little script? 00:25:28 ... okay, we'll put together a task for to do these experiments 00:25:30 BenSchroeter has joined #epub 00:25:35 Topic: Normative Schemas 00:25:36 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1566 00:26:06 dauwhe: the quick summary is that epub has historically had some normative schemas 00:26:23 ... i think it would be a good idea to change to say that the spec is normative, and that any references to spec are informative only 00:26:31 mgarrish: that's part of it 00:26:58 ... Ivan particularly didn't like that we were referencing across to epubcheck repo 00:27:33 ... basically the PR that we have open now makes that schema section informative, and adds some description boxes to things we hadn't previously defined 00:27:59 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1573 00:28:30 Proposal: Accept PR 1573 00:28:43 +1 00:28:43 +1 00:28:47 +1 00:28:47 +1 00:28:51 +1 00:28:51 +1 00:28:53 +1 00:29:08 Resolved: Accept PR 1573 00:29:12 dauwhe: this makes the distinction between spec and epubcheck clearer, which seems good for everyone 00:29:16 +1 00:29:35 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1564 00:29:36 Topic: Data URLs 00:29:58 dauwhe: where should data URLs be allowed in epub? 00:30:15 ... seems to make sense that they shouldn't be allowed in that are not spine elements 00:30:29 ... there are some interesting uses of data urls in CSS (e.g. for backgrounds) 00:30:53 q? 00:30:59 ... so where are these okay, and where shouldn't they be okay? 00:31:21 mgarrish: if we allow them to be embedded, basically, we still can check if they are core media types 00:31:31 ... so we still have a sense of what they are 00:32:09 ... if they aren't core media types, you can't really provide a fallback to data URL, so they would be disallowed that way 00:32:25 ... i have no particular issue with the embedding part 00:32:32 q+ 00:32:40 ... but the part opens security issues 00:33:19 dauwhe: so is it good enough to forbid the useage, but to allow as embedded resource? Would that break epub check? 00:33:25 mgarrish: that would be possible 00:33:48 ack du 00:34:00 duga: i don't think we spec away the security issues here 00:34:28 ... i agree that not putting data urls in your is good, and that RS should ignore them and not do anything 00:34:36 ... if we do spec something, what do we tell RS to do? 00:34:53 ... this seems more like a comment to authors that they shouldn't do this thing 00:35:13 dauwhe: the problem is that i want this in epub check, and to do that we need the spec to say something 00:35:25 q+ 00:35:27 ... by putting it in epub check many fewer RSes will have to deal with this at all 00:35:46 ack mg 00:35:50 ... can we just say that "RS must not perform navigation"? 00:35:56 mgarrish: do we have to spec out what the RS does? 00:36:40 duga: i'm okay putting this in just for epub check purposes... 00:37:01 dauwhe: and i'm okay writing a test for it, e.g. an RS fails if it tries to follow the 00:37:43 ... can we resolve on this? 00:39:01 Proposal: embedded Data URLs are OK, but data URLs in are forbidden; reading systems must not navigate to such URLs. 00:39:23 +1 00:39:26 +1 00:39:27 +1 00:39:30 +1 00:39:33 +1 00:39:43 dauwhe: is the link element an issue here? 00:40:14 mgarrish: i wouldn't think that it would matter, because there is no requirement for the RS to do anything 00:40:18 0 00:40:38 duga: what about in SVGs? 00:40:58 wendyreid: we'll do some research 00:42:22 mgarrish: i can take a look at it, yes 00:42:23 Resolved: embedded Data URLs are OK, but data URLs in are forbidden; reading systems must not navigate to such URLs. 00:42:45 Topic: TAG Explainer 00:43:00 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1521 00:43:22 dauwhe: I haven't really worked on this in a while, but there are a bunch of edits still to be made based on Ivan's comments 00:43:35 ... if anybody else here has anything to add, that would be okay 00:43:42 ... otherwise, let's just defer this? 00:44:24 wendyreid: this PR is for an explainer that we submit to TAG alongside spec 00:44:46 dauwhe: its mostly about security and privacy issues 00:45:24 ... after I make the edits for Ivan's comments into it, we're going to need input from everyone 00:45:45 duga: yes, I can take a look 00:46:10 s/comments into it/comments 00:46:33 wendyreid: we're got significantly fewer open issues! 00:46:42 s/we're got/we've got 00:46:57 ... there's been a little bit of discussion about the fxl a11y stuff 00:47:06 dauwhe: Ken wrote a document about that 00:47:34 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Fixed-Layout-Accessibility 00:47:57 wendyreid: this doc is a collection of some of the proposals we've gathered about FXL a11y 00:48:05 ... won't be part of spec 00:48:11 ... falls more under best practice 00:48:19 ... will probably end up as a note of some kind 00:48:29 ... encourage anyone with interest to comment 00:48:45 ... will probably have a meeting to discuss this, or a separate TF 00:49:07 ... and we should start talking about a virtual face-to-face soon 00:49:30 Ken Jones doc on FXL A11Y https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Accessibility-in-Fixed-Layout-EPUB-3il8mlIqLpUfHHhcZEmgy 00:49:41 dauwhe: George and Ben have posted about FXL a11y to email thread 00:50:09 wendyreid: we're also thinking of doing a special session about scripting in epub 00:50:26 ... hash out scripting-specific issues 00:50:47 ... this would be more open, so that we could have RS and production people who aren't in the WG participate 00:51:18 dauwhe: okay thanks everyone, it feels like we've made some progress today 00:51:41 ... and remember this call's time is pinned to JP time, but other call time is pinned to MIT campus 00:51:53 ... so this call time has shifted for daylight savings, but other one has not 00:52:13 wendyreid: and everyone should have received calendar invites via email 00:52:18 ... with the correct times 00:52:31 dauwhe: we'll talk to you soon! 00:52:36 Zakim, end meeting 00:52:36 As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, MattChan, wendyreid, duga, shiestyle, BenSchroeter, mgarrish 00:52:38 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 00:52:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/18-epub-minutes.html Zakim 00:52:41 I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 00:52:45 Zakim has left #epub 00:53:22 RRSAgent: bye 00:53:22 I see no action items