18:31:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:31:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-irc
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18:31:22 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
18:31:38 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:31:48 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
18:31:53 <Matt_King> present+
18:31:59 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:32:06 <Matt_King> zakim, clear agenda
18:32:06 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:46:54 <Matt_King_> Matt_King_ has joined #aria-apg
19:00:29 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy has joined #aria-apg
19:00:32 <MarkMccarthy> present+
19:01:14 <ZoeBijl> present+
19:02:20 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
19:02:29 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
19:02:39 <Jemma> present+
19:02:46 <jamesn> /me regrets - swamped
19:04:15 <sarah_higley> does anyone have a direct zoom link? I'm getting security errors trying to access the w3c meeting info page
19:04:17 <Jemma> agenda?
19:04:20 <MarkMccarthy> one sec!
19:04:49 <sarah_higley> thanks so much! ♥
19:05:17 <carmacleod> carmacleod has joined #aria-apg
19:05:23 <carmacleod> present+
19:05:27 <MarkMccarthy> regrets+ jamesn CurtBellew
19:05:35 <MarkMccarthy> scribe: MarkMccarthy
19:06:05 <MarkMccarthy> TOPIC: Modal dialog questions
19:06:20 <MarkMccarthy> mck: we have a couple issues out there, but there are 2 that are pressing
19:07:07 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1615
19:07:12 <Jemma> dialog issue
19:07:13 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: issue 1615 - saying our dialogs don't close when you click outside of them... not sure if this was itentional or an oversight
19:07:35 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:07:38 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: seems like we should just make it part of the implementation
19:07:57 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: i also noticed these don't have close buttons...so lets add both. there's a cancel button but not a close button
19:08:05 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: seriously?!
19:08:08 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: i know!
19:08:42 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: well last time we checked on these, it was more about technical issues related to iphones, so that's fair I guess. good catch Sarah!
19:09:01 <carmacleod> https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#dialog_modal
19:09:13 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so we'll add close button AND that.
19:09:37 <MarkMccarthy> ZoeBijl: well i have some conflicts about it. if you click outside of the modal, is the data you already put in saved? or deleted?
19:09:44 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: it should be saved
19:09:57 <MarkMccarthy> ZoeBijl: yes, but is that what people will do? not sure this is the place to do that
19:10:21 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so then in that case, is "cancel" different than "close"?
19:11:12 <MarkMccarthy> ZoeBijl: doesn't WCAG say...
19:11:21 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: right, easy undo would cover that
19:12:01 <MarkMccarthy> ZoeBijl: what i find (elsewhere) is that i'd click outside it accidentally and it wouldn't save the data - it's frustrating!
19:13:00 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so there's a couple choices - have the X icon for mouse users, and have that exactly duplicate the cancel button. OR distinct functionality where "close" doesn't remove the data but "cancel" does
19:13:09 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: yep, and they each have their own tab stops
19:13:11 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: right
19:13:13 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: +1
19:13:35 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: another possibility is to get rid of cancel entirely and just change it to a close button
19:13:54 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i like that too!
19:13:57 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: yeah!
19:14:22 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: maybe we'll have to look at the project to make sure we're covering all bases, but that make sense
19:14:35 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: i think that's a better UX
19:14:40 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: yeah, less complexity
19:15:16 <ZoeBijl> For the minutes, this is the WCAG criteria that Matt and I were discussing: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#error-prevention-legal-financial-data
19:15:32 <MarkMccarthy> thank you zoe!
19:15:54 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so then, any objections to removing the cancel button and replacing with a close icon/button in the upper right?
19:15:59 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: and saving the data?
19:16:13 <MarkMccarthy> s/thank you zoe!/thank you Zoe!
19:16:21 <MarkMccarthy> [no objections]
19:16:52 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: [committing the actions to an issue]
19:17:10 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: our actions are in a comment in issue 1615!
19:18:03 <MarkMccarthy> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1615
19:19:09 <MarkMccarthy> TOPIC: Modal Dialog - Tab Ring
19:19:32 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772
19:20:59 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: next item, issue 1772. Says APG should allow focus to go outside the dialog. After many other comments... Sina is asking if this is anything for ARIA to handle or not.
19:21:15 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: but sarah_higley's last comment was suggesting not putting as much onus on authors
19:21:25 <Jemma> sarah's comment https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772#issuecomment-793285322
19:21:43 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: the reason i put that in is that when i've suggested using inert to handle focus managment, i've had pushback citing ARIA practices.
19:21:56 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: does our break anything really?
19:22:22 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: so this isn't exactly about our example, but the wording in practices. generally, active focus management tends to be buggier
19:23:00 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: basically, it just seems like inert is making things funky
19:23:54 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: this is one of those reasons the APG redesign project is discussing scope increases, so we can better test and write for things like this. this'd be lovely for something like that
19:23:59 <Jemma> sarah -"Could we have some wording along the lines of "Tab does not move focus into the inactive parts of the page while the modal is open", then follow up with browsers and the HTML spec?"
19:24:07 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: in the meantime, do you think we should add a note to the pattern, if so what to add? or what to do?
19:24:45 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: could we have something in the language like, "we think the best UX is to keep focus trapped in the dialog, but this should be handled by browsers..." etc etc. lots of wordsmithing, of course
19:25:19 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i think it'd be better if we raised the issue to the right places first. as well as some broader consensus - I don't want APG to seem so monolithic
19:25:36 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: maybe something like "Do your best to make this work, we know it's rough in spots" or something similar
19:26:03 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: Alice basically mentioned it'd be hard for browsers to make this change, but seemed a little optimistic
19:26:18 <MarkMccarthy> s/this change/this change because people are used to it
19:27:01 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: Well, I'd love to see it be more general, so tabbing stays in the webpage completely regardless of a dialog. it'd be so much easier in so many ways
19:27:29 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
19:27:45 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: especially on Mac, it's so hard to skip the browser chrome
19:27:50 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: I thought that was just me!
19:28:42 <MarkMccarthy> [various comisserating about tabbing in browser chrome]
19:29:24 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i don't have a good answer about _that_, but I'm hopeful we could find some consensus about the modals
19:30:01 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: so HTML doesn't specify how browsers handle their chrome, right?
19:30:02 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: yep
19:30:16 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: could it be part of spec for a dialog element?
19:30:46 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: _that_ could be part of HTML, though I don't think i've seen it. but something specific for browser modals and webpage modals?
19:30:56 <MarkMccarthy> s/something specific/adding something specific
19:31:28 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: to be clear, i don't think we need an HTML change or addition, i think it'd be a behavior thing. (and I don't think we need a specific example for each either)
19:32:17 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: what spec does tabindex live in? i vaguely remember somethign about that, some stuff to do with tabindex=-1 and ARIA...but I don't remember the spec. Maybe this would go in _that_ spec
19:32:20 <carmacleod> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/interaction.html#attr-tabindex
19:32:25 <MarkMccarthy> s/somethign/something
19:32:28 <jongund> present+ jongund
19:32:36 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: maybe it'd go in this one (pasted above)
19:33:03 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so i'd support that proposal, adding some language around inert. then we can publically try to rally support
19:33:10 <MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: sounds good to me!
19:33:49 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i'll get to this unless anyone else wants to file that issue
19:34:12 <MarkMccarthy> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772
19:34:17 <MarkMccarthy> TOPIC: Slider pull requests
19:34:58 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so, focusing on the thermostat slider - let's start with Jemma's questions
19:35:44 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: been testing these examples with TalkBack, finding repeated problems in reading the value on sliders. i'm getting percentages, not any other values
19:36:10 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: on iOS, the color view slider was reading the number correctly. i didn't check the theromstat one with iOS yet
19:37:10 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: i think Patrick L. did some testing and found that Android needs work, not our code.
19:37:12 <MarkMccarthy> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1755#issuecomment-782607921
19:37:23 <MarkMccarthy> s/and found/and came to the conclusion that
19:38:05 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: iOS is reading the aria-valuetext, so that's working okay
19:38:25 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: does color viewer have -valuetext?
19:38:41 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: i found the same issues with TalkBack, just telling me percentages
19:39:24 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: it seemed like the math was off too
19:39:58 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so my questions - in the thermostat description it says there's 3 sliders but there's only 2, is that right?
19:39:59 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: yes
19:40:41 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: cool that's an easy change. so, next: do we want to mix buttons into this? it feels like adding complexity that doesn't necessarily help the example; i feel the buttons are a distraction
19:41:11 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: they _do_ add a lot of aural clutter, for what that's worth
19:41:27 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: did we add them originally because we thought that was the mobile solution?
19:41:31 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i think...
19:41:44 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: so now that they work pretty well, at least on iOS and iPadOS, maybe we can remove them
19:42:01 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: they're labels, so i think when you press a label (like on a radio button) it should change it
19:42:17 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: so then maybe it doesn't need to be a <button>?
19:42:29 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: yeah... and does it need all the words, or could it be more graphical?
19:43:07 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: the labels need to be visible since they correspond to the slider
19:43:19 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: i think they're nice, but they don't _have to_ be buttons
19:43:27 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: they could be clickable and tappable
19:43:37 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: **pointerable** [laughs]
19:43:54 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: that should simplify the documentation and aural experience
19:45:12 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: so i have a minor issue with the fan speed example - i can set the speed but can't confirm that it was set successfully. does it matter that a screen reader wouldn't get that confirmation?
19:45:28 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: if it was working correctly, it'd tell you what the current setting is - probably also a TalkBack problem
19:45:44 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: did you want me to update the links in master etc. when I have a PR?
19:45:57 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: we should update the link to the one that's already merged, and this one
19:46:04 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: but the other examples should be updated
19:46:10 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: yes, for the one that's already merged
19:46:47 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: i haven't been updating those, you have, so I wanted to check
19:46:54 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: if you'd like to, go for it!
19:48:15 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: so, after I do editorial review...
19:48:26 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: only code, test, and Windows a11y reviews are left
19:48:36 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: what to do about TalkBack then?
19:48:43 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: open bugs with them?
19:48:49 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: for extra credit
19:49:05 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: it'd save work from the ARIA-AT project
19:49:44 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1803
19:49:45 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: one thing - I did create a PR for updating the link in aria-practices.html, 1803, for the color slider. that's already done, just needs to be merged
19:49:56 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i'll take care of that, thanks!
19:51:51 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: multi-thumb slider is next, 1758
19:51:57 <Jemma> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-multithumb-update/examples/slider/slider-multithumb.html
19:52:05 <Jemma> PR 1758
19:52:12 <MarkMccarthy> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1758
19:52:56 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: can someone take on visual design review in the next two weeks?
19:53:16 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: I can if no one else is available
19:53:33 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: i'll put Jess on this as well (for code and test)
19:54:04 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: shall we split accessibility testing again?
19:54:10 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: yeah that'd be good
19:54:17 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: i can do MacOS testing again
19:54:24 <MarkMccarthy> Jemma: and I can do TalkBack again
19:55:16 <Jemma> zoe, would you like to try talkback testing as third attempt?
19:57:07 <ZoeBijl> ]/me I don’t gave an Android device. I can test Narrator on Windows Phone tho 😂
19:57:20 <ZoeBijl> s/me I don’t gave an Android device. I can test Narrator on Windows Phone tho 😂//
20:01:11 <MarkMccarthy> jongund: i like the idea of having another example that doesnt have valuetext
20:01:23 <MarkMccarthy> Matt_King: that would be nice, but isn't exactly necessary right now
20:02:35 <MarkMccarthy> zakim, who is here?
20:02:36 <Zakim> Present: Matt_King, MarkMccarthy, ZoeBijl, Jemma, carmacleod, jongund
20:02:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see jongund, siri, carmacleod, sarah_higley, jamesn, MarkMccarthy, Matt_King, Zakim, RRSAgent, github-bot, Jemma, MichaelC, zcorpan_, ZoeBijl, s3ththompson, trackbot
20:02:47 <MarkMccarthy> present+ siri
20:03:04 <MarkMccarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMccarthy