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14:02:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-epub-irc
14:02:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:02:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
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14:11:08 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Feb/0016.html
14:12:14 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-02-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Feb/0016.html
14:12:15 <ivan> Chair: wendy
14:12:15 <ivan> Date: 2021-02-26
14:12:15 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Feb/0016.html
14:12:15 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
14:12:15 <ivan> Regrets+ tzviya
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14:59:01 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:59:08 <ivan> present+ MattChan
14:59:11 <wendyreid> present+
14:59:14 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
14:59:23 <LauraB__> present+
14:59:27 <ivan> present+ avneeshsingh
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14:59:56 <ivan> present+ george
15:00:08 <toshiakikoike> present+
15:00:17 <ivan> present+ florian
15:00:17 <George> present+
15:00:28 <ivan> present+ laura
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15:03:34 <ivan> present+ awad
15:03:41 <Bill_Kasdorf_> present+
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15:04:01 <MattChan> scribe+
15:04:10 <BenSchroeter> present+
15:04:20 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
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15:04:32 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
15:04:34 <mgarrish> present+
15:04:37 <MattChan> dauwhe: we have lots of horizontal review to do
15:04:39 <gpellegrino> present+
15:04:48 <MattChan> ... re. the security and privacy self-questionnaire
15:04:52 <ivan> present+ brady
15:04:56 <duga> duga has joined #epub
15:04:56 <MattChan> ... eventually we need TAG review of our spec
15:04:58 <ivan> present+ BenSchroeter
15:05:01 <duga> present+
15:05:27 <MattChan> ... i'm hoping to get advice from them esp. question of origin and how epub security fits into web security model
15:05:29 <dauwhe> https://github.com/dauwhe/epub-specs/blob/73ccdf946f426521834e0993e8d667d92ba7881c/epub33/explainers/EPUB33-explainer.md
15:05:42 <MattChan> ... i started answering the questionnaire
15:06:06 <MattChan> ... getting some feedback from you all would be REALLY helpful
15:06:19 <MattChan> ... Ivan has already made some helpful comments
15:06:29 <duga> q+
15:06:50 <MattChan> TOPIC: TAG Explainer
15:06:59 <MattChan> duga: what is our timeline for review of this doc?
15:07:03 <ivan> q+
15:07:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: not clear
15:07:07 <ivan> ack duga
15:07:17 <MattChan> ... i just wanted to get started, get a handle on the extent of potential work required
15:07:25 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:07:31 <juliette_mcshane> juliette_mcshane has joined #epub
15:07:32 <MattChan> ivan: we are always asked to come in as early as possible
15:07:33 <juliette_mcshane> present+
15:07:41 <Teenya> Teenya has joined #epub
15:07:53 <MattChan> ... there is normally a problem with groups coming in close to CR and only realizing that they have issues there
15:08:01 <MattChan> ... that is why I started i18n so quickly
15:08:02 <Teenya> present+ (apologies for lateness)
15:08:19 <MattChan> ... if we can submit a first round to them for review within 1 mth or 6 wks that would be good
15:08:30 <MattChan> dauwhe: and we're talking about CR in november, and its already feb
15:08:39 <MattChan> ... ivan does it make sense to go thru the questions on this call?
15:08:52 <MattChan> ivan: i think we have some ppl on the call who have not been with us before?
15:09:21 <MattChan> dauwhe: okay, let's try to get through a few of these
15:09:49 <MattChan> ... Q1 1. What information might this feature expose to Web sites or other parties, and for what purposes is that exposure necessary?
15:10:01 <MattChan> ... questionnaire seems to be kind of web-centric
15:10:09 <MattChan> ... but we try to work around that
15:10:13 <mgarrish> q+
15:10:18 <duga> q+
15:10:21 <MattChan> ... i tried to mention some of the kinds of info that RSes seem to collect
15:10:24 <MattChan> ... e.g. reading position
15:10:28 <BenSchroeter> q+
15:10:31 <MattChan> ... highlights, notes, bookmarks
15:10:40 <MattChan> ... which books are finished
15:10:45 <MattChan> ... what else?
15:10:46 <dauwhe> ack mg
15:11:02 <MattChan> mgarrish: i don't know that anything is missing, but is this really in scope? The spec doesn't really define this behaviour
15:11:05 <ivan> q+
15:11:18 <George> q+
15:11:22 <MattChan> ... what are we supposed to be listing for this question?
15:11:33 <MattChan> ... do we have to be able to point to where in the spec we are mandating each of these things?
15:11:42 <MattChan> ... or just list whatever a RS could possibly do?
15:11:53 <MattChan> dauwhe: this is our first interaction with W3C as formal WG
15:12:01 <MattChan> ... i think we need to cast as wide a net as possible
15:12:23 <MattChan> ... don't want to draw narrow boundaries
15:12:32 <MattChan> ... want to give TAG as much info as possible to make an informed decision
15:12:38 <Bill_Kasdorf_> q+
15:13:11 <MattChan> ... then if TAG says not to worry about something, then okay
15:13:20 <dauwhe> ack dug
15:13:23 <MattChan> ... rather than to have them caught off guard
15:14:02 <MattChan> duga: listing all the things that a web browser could do in a specific spec (e.g. flexbox) would seem odd
15:14:38 <MattChan> ... similarly, listing everything RSes can do seems like it would be similar
15:14:54 <MattChan> ... a lot of these features we don't require
15:15:19 <MattChan> ... publishers are also users
15:15:34 <ivan> present+ garth
15:15:35 <MattChan> ... the metadata that they put in, they intend to be made available on the net
15:15:45 <dauwhe> ack Ben
15:15:53 <MattChan> ... it seems obvious that this would be the case
15:16:30 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: when we talk about the info that can be collected and other users who may be interested in said info, one of the most important is educational market
15:16:42 <MattChan> ... they like student engagement info
15:17:00 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:17:06 <MattChan> ... so we might think about including schools in the category of interested users
15:17:11 <Garth> q?
15:17:20 <MattChan> ivan: at the end of the day, we will have to add a privacy and security section
15:17:30 <MattChan> ... look at other specs, these sections are not normally normative
15:18:06 <MattChan> ... they say, you have this technology, and hopefully you've done everything in your power to avoid security and privacy issues, but implementers should be aware that these certain issues exist
15:18:48 <MattChan> ... but this kind of info that any reasonable person authoring an epub should realize that these are things that can happen when their publication gets to an RS
15:18:59 <MattChan> ... these are the sorts of things we should keep in mind
15:19:16 <MattChan> ... the TAG may ask us whether we've done what we can to avoid certain problems
15:19:34 <MattChan> ... e.g. discussion we had last week about origin, that is a step in the right direction
15:19:43 <mgarrish> q+
15:19:44 <dauwhe> ack Geor
15:19:53 <MattChan> ... but the final outcome is a section that contains informal warnings
15:20:25 <MattChan> George: for AT, dyslexic students will also want to track how quickly they are reading, how much read aloud features are being used
15:20:40 <MattChan> ... one library tracks the books i've downloaded and reports back to me what books i've read
15:20:43 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:20:45 <MattChan> ... great feature, as long as it stays private
15:20:48 <dauwhe> ack Bil
15:21:13 <CharlesL> q+
15:21:16 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf_: i just want to be clear, when the TAG does this review of spec, are they critiquing what is in the spec, or suggesting additions that need to be made to spec?
15:21:20 <MattChan> ivan: it will be both
15:21:32 <dauwhe> ack mg
15:21:52 <MattChan> mgarrish: maybe it would help to separate what we know are features of the spec, vs things that RSes do that are not in spec
15:22:01 <MattChan> ... so ppl don't think that everything is being dictated by spec
15:22:14 <dauwhe> ack avn
15:22:23 <MattChan> ... e.g. give them a list of things to consider that are not directly in our control, just FYI
15:22:34 <duga> +1 to Matt G
15:22:53 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: as an example, re. geopositioning info, one can say this is a security hole, but many things that an RS does cannot be controlled by the spec
15:23:05 <MattChan> ... so I second Matt G's idea
15:23:06 <dauwhe> ack Ch
15:23:29 <CharlesL> https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers
15:23:30 <MattChan> CharlesL: in the personalization tf, we went through TAG review, but they want it in a very specific format
15:23:48 <MattChan> ... this link is template that they want for explainers
15:23:56 <MattChan> ... important that we use their format
15:24:06 <MattChan> ... saying this from experience
15:24:16 <MattChan> dauwhe: right, good point
15:24:28 <dauwhe> q?
15:24:31 <MattChan> ... right now this is a very work in progress attempt to think through the relevant points
15:25:23 <MattChan> ... "Is this spec exposing the minimum amount of info...?"
15:25:25 <MattChan> ... probably
15:25:31 <ivan> present+ hadrien
15:25:39 <MattChan> ... "How do we deal with sensitive info?"
15:25:54 <MattChan> ... there was a comment that the fact you are reading a particular book can be highly sensitive info
15:26:05 <Bill_Kasdorf_> q+
15:26:10 <dauwhe> ack Bil
15:26:11 <MattChan> ... we should be clear about that, but again, the spec doesn't discuss sharing of this sort of info
15:26:37 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf_: it occurs to me that we're actually working on 2 specs? Update of epub core, and epub RS?
15:26:54 <MattChan> ... how does this affect that RS? Maybe that's where a lot of stuff comes to surface
15:26:58 <duga> q+
15:27:03 <BenSchroeter> q+
15:27:25 <duga> q-
15:27:27 <MattChan> dauwhe: epub is currently described in 2 specs, but i don't want to have a separate security and privacy questionnaire for each of them
15:27:37 <MattChan> ... there are so many ways that they interact
15:27:45 <duga> q+ to discuss indirect information gathering
15:27:46 <dauwhe> ack Ben
15:27:48 <MattChan> ... it feels like it would be more of an artificial distinction to me
15:28:04 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: i don't think the question of what books i'm reading has anything to do with the format of the book etc.
15:28:19 <MattChan> ... that's more down to what company i've go through to get the book
15:28:35 <dauwhe> ack duga
15:28:35 <Zakim> duga, you wanted to discuss indirect information gathering
15:28:38 <MattChan> ... the formatting of the book itself doesn't add vulnerability
15:28:56 <MattChan> duga: one thing, the unique identifier is an interesting tracking vector
15:29:06 <MattChan> s/vector/mechanism
15:29:26 <MattChan> ... the other thing is, about portrait and landscape
15:29:37 <MattChan> ... we do that by just looking at the aspect ratio
15:29:58 <MattChan> ... but if you have scripting in the book, you could examine the book to figure out things indirectly
15:30:17 <MattChan> ... e.g. examining the book to deduce what the device orientation is
15:30:31 <ivan> q+
15:30:38 <MattChan> ... e.g. if someone has extremely large font size, then an inference could be made that user is low vision
15:30:38 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:31:11 <MattChan> ivan: to pick on the last one, in every script which is like an HTML script, can it find out what font is used, or what size, without any further ado?
15:31:25 <MattChan> duga: it depends... would have to look at what we expose from the RS object
15:31:51 <MattChan> ... WE don't support scripting, so I don't deal with this very often
15:32:13 <MattChan> ... but it really depends on how the RS does font stuff
15:32:24 <MattChan> ivan: could you do the same in browser?
15:32:29 <CharlesL> dyslexic font could expose sensitive information?
15:32:52 <MattChan> duga: you can absolutely tell. E.g. by measuring a range with a known size,
15:33:07 <MattChan> ivan: so maybe there is a danger, but epub doesn't exacerbate this
15:33:54 <MattChan> duga: not necessarily. There are ways that we handle things that are not necessarily the same as in a browser
15:34:16 <dauwhe> q?
15:34:16 <MattChan> ... e.g. we allow users to choose font via CSS, not sure if this is a thing is browsers
15:34:34 <MattChan> ... Ivan's point is good, but it requires further study
15:34:36 <dauwhe> q?
15:34:45 <George> q+
15:34:51 <dauwhe> ack george
15:35:00 <MattChan> ... to make sure we're not caught by any backdoor ways that user info could be revealed/deduced
15:35:18 <MattChan> George: i'm wondering about Microsoft's immersive reading experience in edge and office products
15:35:26 <MattChan> ... are they encountering the same kinds of issues that we have
15:35:45 <MattChan> ... where they may understand a lot more about the person that we would typically think
15:35:52 <MattChan> ... so the issues we're facing may not be unique to us
15:36:00 <duga> q+
15:36:09 <dauwhe> ack dug
15:36:18 <MattChan> dauwhe: there are certainly a lot of surprising security vulnerabilities
15:36:50 <MattChan> duga: I just checked whether Chrome is reporting updated computed sizes when I control+plus, and we don't
15:36:56 <MattChan> ... but this is something an RS would do
15:37:12 <ivan> q+
15:37:16 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:37:37 <MattChan> ivan: we do say in the document that each epub instance should be viewed as having its own origin
15:38:03 <MattChan> ... i am not sure that we also say that the same document read on two different occasions should have two different ones
15:38:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: we don't say that, that would prevent many useful features
15:38:24 <MattChan> ivan: then we should specify that
15:38:50 <MattChan> ... on the other hand, the point of each epub being its own origin is currently non-normative
15:38:58 <MattChan> dauwhe: good point
15:39:39 <ivan> Topic: WCAG 3
15:39:39 <MattChan> Scribe's note: About was in relation to Q8 of the questionnaire
15:39:48 <MattChan> dauwhe: i propose we move on
15:39:54 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/2021/02/23-pbg-video.html
15:40:02 <MattChan> TOPIC: WCAG 3.0
15:40:12 <MattChan> wendyreid: we had a meeting within the publishing BG
15:40:24 <MattChan> ... the link above is to the video of the presentation
15:40:32 <Bill_Kasdorf_> could you also provide a link to her slides?
15:40:42 <MattChan> ... the meeting covered an overview of changes in WCAG 3.0
15:40:52 <MattChan> ... they are looking for first round of feedback by today end of day
15:41:02 <MattChan> ... epub is specifically called out
15:41:22 <MattChan> ... they are looking for assistance to make the parts concerning epub as consistent as possible
15:41:39 <dauwhe> q?
15:41:44 <George> q+
15:41:51 <MattChan> dauwhe: any questions or comments?
15:41:54 <dauwhe> ack geor
15:42:17 <MattChan> George: when we provide feedback to them, does each individual person provide their comments?
15:42:24 <MattChan> ... or do we as a group agree on comments?
15:42:45 <MattChan> wendyreid: its fine to offer comments as an individual
15:43:03 <MattChan> George: i'm just afraid that my comments will be interpreted as representing the WG
15:43:16 <MattChan> ... and I can just clarify that my comments are my own
15:43:18 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:43:25 <dauwhe> ack avn
15:43:43 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: to provide a little bit of an overview, the current draft is not entirely settled
15:43:53 <MattChan> ... a lot of discussion will still take place
15:44:02 <MattChan> ... but a lot of the high level framework is in place
15:44:18 <MattChan> ... so current comments about high level is most helpful right now
15:44:50 <dauwhe> q?
15:44:58 <MattChan> ... as we get further on, we can work out more of the details with WCAG tf
15:45:15 <MattChan> TOPIC: Open issues
15:45:29 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1380
15:45:48 <MattChan> dauwhe: this is about rendition:align-x-center
15:46:01 <MattChan> ... the intent was that this would be used to center title pages in Japanese books
15:46:08 <MattChan> ... so that everything would be in center of viewport
15:46:24 <MattChan> ... issue here is that this is a bit of metadata that does not make sense as global metadatda
15:46:35 <MattChan> ... but the spec seems to allow it
15:47:04 <MattChan> ... should we fix this by prohibiting it as global?
15:47:07 <Garth> q+
15:47:13 <dauwhe> ack Garth
15:47:14 <duga> q+
15:47:15 <MattChan> ... there does seem to be some interest in deprecating it entirely
15:47:47 <MattChan> Garth: we (Google) don't implement it
15:48:14 <mgarrish> q+
15:48:18 <dauwhe> ack duga
15:48:52 <MattChan> ... if you had a landscape image in fixed layout, it seems to me that there could be a use case for the global setting
15:49:13 <MattChan> duga: you said earlier that there have already been other ways to address the use case of japanese title pages
15:49:19 <MattChan> ... not sure that this is the case
15:49:29 <MattChan> ... i'm currently dealing this an issue report about this right now
15:50:36 <MattChan> ... the experts in Japanese rendering would currently say that there is not real CSS solution to this, but only after a great deal of specific research
15:50:41 <dauwhe> ack mg
15:50:59 <MattChan> mgarrish: its not possible for this to be a global property right now
15:51:19 <MattChan> ... because there are no defined values for it currently
15:51:25 <dauwhe> q?
15:53:33 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:54:02 <wendyreid> dauwhe: We do have the datapoint that a careful reader of the spec was unsure that this could be a global property
15:54:15 <MattChan_> MattChan_ has joined #epub
15:54:15 <wendyreid> ... that's some evidence that an editorial note or tweak is needed
15:54:48 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I have no issue sticking a note in
15:54:57 <wendyreid> ... we can't actually have a global property, it's impossible
15:55:20 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Let's close the issue and have a separate discussion about whether it should be deprecated
15:55:28 <wendyreid> ... we're poitentially running into not having 2 implementations
15:55:34 <wendyreid> ... making this an at-risk feature
15:56:01 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1295
15:56:03 <wendyreid> ivan: Minutes are sufficient
15:56:10 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Let's discuss 1295
15:56:28 <wendyreid> ... package metadata, according to the spec we need to trim leading and trailing whitespace
15:56:38 <wendyreid> ... the INFRA spec does have instructions on this
15:56:56 <wendyreid> ... it would be a step in the right direction to define the trimming as described in the INFRA spec
15:57:08 <wendyreid> ... this is separate to a discussion on whitespace within the strings
15:57:24 <wendyreid> ... there is a major RS that ignores this requirement
15:57:25 <dauwhe> q?
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15:57:40 <ivan> q+
15:57:41 <wendyreid> Garth: What is the proposed change?
15:58:00 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Could it be as simple as linking the word "trim" to the INFRA spec?
15:58:08 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:58:18 <wendyreid> ivan: We can normatively refer to the INFRA spec
15:58:40 <wendyreid> ... we can close by referring to it
15:58:45 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Cool!
15:58:56 <wendyreid> ... that's all for today
15:59:00 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
15:59:34 <wendyreid> WillAwad: [Introduces himself]
16:01:12 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #epub
16:01:46 <CharlesL> Will from Newgen is a GCA Benetech Approved Vendor as well!
16:02:11 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #epub
16:02:18 <wendyreid> Teenya: {shows off cute dog]
16:02:22 <ivan> rrsagent, draft meeting
16:02:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft meeting', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:02:35 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
16:02:51 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:02:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, ivan, MattChan, wendyreid, dauwhe, LauraB__, avneeshsingh, george, toshiakikoike, florian, billk, dkaplan, CharlesL,
16:02:54 <Zakim> ... awad, Bill_Kasdorf_, BenSchroeter, gpellegrino, mgarrish, brady, duga, juliette_mcshane, (apologies, for, lateness), garth, hadrien
16:02:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-epub-minutes.html Zakim
16:02:56 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:03:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
16:03:59 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:03:59 <RRSAgent> I see no action items