16:41:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
16:41:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/18-silver-conf-irc
16:41:32 <sajkaj> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:41:40 <sajkaj> Date: 18 Feb 2021
16:41:45 <sajkaj> Chair: sajkaj
16:41:58 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make log public
16:42:08 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/18-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
16:42:21 <sajkaj> agenda?
16:42:24 <sajkaj> Agenda+             Agenda Review & Administrative Items; Use cases for Friday Silver telecon
16:42:27 <sajkaj> agenda+             Use Cases Discussion (Continued)
16:42:30 <sajkaj> agenda+             Other Business
16:42:32 <sajkaj> agenda+             Be Done
16:50:54 <sajkaj>  regrets: Azlan
16:53:42 <sajkaj> present+
16:57:12 <sajkaj> regrets+ Rachael
17:02:12 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
17:02:19 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver-conf
17:02:35 <sarahhorton> present+
17:02:42 <PeterKorn> present+
17:04:01 <sarahhorton> present+ Bruce
17:04:10 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
17:04:20 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver-conf
17:04:22 <John_Northup> John_Northup has joined #silver-conf
17:04:34 <jeanne> present+
17:04:43 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up next
17:04:43 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items; Use cases for Friday Silver telecon -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:04:48 <JF> JF has joined #silver-conf
17:04:49 <Wilco_> Wilco_ has joined #silver-conf
17:04:52 <Wilco_> present+
17:04:53 <JF> Present+
17:04:59 <JF> agenda?
17:04:59 <John_Northup> present+
17:05:14 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #silver-conf
17:05:43 <sarahhorton> Janina: Taking use cases to Silver call tomorrow 19 Feb
17:06:30 <sarahhorton> ...1st principle and 3rd principle
17:07:05 <Jemma> present+
17:07:10 <Jemma> agenda?
17:07:11 <sarahhorton> Google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GyUYTnZp0HIMdsKqCiISCSCvL0su692dnW34P81kbbw/edit
17:07:41 <sarahhorton> Peter: How much more material before they are ready for tomorrow?
17:08:03 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Looks good, what does group think?
17:08:30 <sarahhorton> Peter: How much principle needs to be with use case?
17:08:51 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Connect to principle makes sense, what does group think?
17:09:24 <sarahhorton> Peter: Might be useful to paraphrase principle illustrated
17:10:18 <sarahhorton> ...frame use cases with principle
17:11:04 <sarahhorton> Janina: For Friday could explain that principles are in process
17:11:20 <Wilco_> q+
17:11:27 <sarahhorton> Peter: Who and how presented on Friday?
17:12:02 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Up to Janina who, how, read principle, read 1st use case, as for questions and comments, then next
17:12:31 <sarahhorton> Peter: Could make use case page with the two use cases
17:12:57 <sarahhorton> Janina: Jeanne suggested not making more pages with same content
17:13:20 <sarahhorton> Peter: Worries about getting cause in language that's not final
17:13:52 <sarahhorton> Janina: People seeing options might be useful
17:14:09 <sajkaj> q?
17:14:19 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Good to have people see work in process
17:14:26 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Goal of presenting?
17:14:48 <sarahhorton> Janina: Bring use cases forward sooner rather than later
17:15:06 <Wilco_> ack w
17:15:14 <Jemma> q+
17:15:39 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Part of critical error discussion, get more of group input on approach, whether it's valuable
17:15:51 <sarahhorton> ...let people know what we're working on
17:16:04 <PeterKorn> q?
17:16:17 <sarahhorton> Janina: Have most of the principles with use cases
17:16:34 <sarahhorton> ...will put them in buckets, covered and not yet covered
17:16:46 <sajkaj> q?
17:17:07 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Pitch other groups to do use cases?
17:17:49 <PeterKorn> q+
17:17:50 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: No, this group more oriented to what needs to be covered that aren't, what are solutions, approach of principles, use cases, solutions
17:17:59 <sajkaj> ack je
17:18:02 <sarahhorton> ...impacts every group so good to let them know
17:18:39 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Also concerned about rabbit hole, people have different degrees of understanding, Jeanne can manage discussion so people don't get hung up
17:18:56 <sajkaj> ack pet
17:19:28 <sarahhorton> Peter: Timeline discussion, idea by end of Feb have agreement and report in March, concerned about showing entire doc
17:20:11 <sarahhorton> ...share use cases and situations or general discussion, but concerned about looking at doc
17:20:28 <Jemma> I see Peter's concern clearly.
17:20:43 <sarahhorton> Janina: How we bring topic forward, if we pull out looks like final wording
17:20:50 <PeterKorn> q?
17:21:32 <Jemma> we may go for it and see how things are working.
17:21:49 <sajkaj> q?
17:21:54 <Jemma> it seems Jeanne has a good idea of scoping the discussion.
17:22:12 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Looking at the two use cases only, try to hold it there
17:22:15 <sarahhorton> q+
17:22:33 <sarahhorton> Peter: Ask people to not edit document, welcome to make comments
17:23:16 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Can turn off permissions on folder
17:24:56 <sarahhorton> Janina: Can see comments in Google Doc but deletions and insertions are unclear
17:25:54 <sarahhorton> ...suggests Jeanne introduces, Janina presents context, and Peter reads use case
17:26:15 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up item 2
17:26:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Use Cases Discussion (Continued) -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:26:19 <sarahhorton> q-
17:27:08 <Wilco_> q+
17:27:37 <sajkaj> ack wil
17:27:48 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Idea for use case, worth having component themed use case?
17:28:50 <JF> +1 to Wilco - use-case = "Design Systems"
17:29:00 <sarahhorton> ...team responsible for delivering components may want to make conformance claims about them
17:29:15 <JF> Q+
17:29:37 <sarahhorton> Peter: Might need new principle
17:30:20 <sarahhorton> Janina: Not only testing process but testing tools, e.g., components
17:30:20 <sajkaj> q?
17:30:27 <sajkaj> ack jf
17:31:21 <sarahhorton> JF: Publishing tools with no content, WordPress basic installation, two classes of accessibility, structure and user flows
17:31:24 <sajkaj> q?
17:31:28 <sajkaj> q+
17:31:56 <Jemma> q+
17:32:00 <jeanne> q+ to say that we postponed dealing with that issue for the FPWD
17:32:05 <sarahhorton> ...design system, buttons, colors, primitives may be accessible but putting them together may be different
17:32:11 <PeterKorn> q+
17:32:48 <sarahhorton> Janina: Charter says WCAG, ATAG, UAAG combined
17:33:01 <sajkaj> ack sa
17:33:47 <sarahhorton> JF: Accessible design systems, nuts and bolts, org that makes platform available may want to say something about conformance about piece parts
17:34:04 <sajkaj> ack je
17:34:04 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that we postponed dealing with that issue for the FPWD
17:34:41 <JF> Salesforce Design System (Lightning): https://www.lightningdesignsystem.com
17:34:49 <Wilco_> q+
17:34:59 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Component concepts, accessible dialog widget, what is the definition/scope of component
17:35:48 <sarahhorton> JF: Theme, accessible conformance statement for theme, accessible until added content, author make statement about theme
17:36:06 <sajkaj> ack pe
17:36:26 <sarahhorton> Peter: Wilco could draft something for review next week, something concrete to review
17:36:41 <Jemma> q-
17:36:44 <sarahhorton> ...separate from existing principles, then see if it needs a new principle
17:37:20 <sajkaj> ~q?
17:37:21 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Not able to restrict write access, will follow up with Janina
17:37:29 <Wilco_> q-
17:37:31 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Will do!
17:37:34 <PeterKorn> New proposed use case, for principle 5:
17:37:37 <PeterKorn> Proposed Use Case example for user generated content [for discussion 18Feb21]: A site containing on-line journals of highly technical material allows user comments.  While authors
17:37:46 <PeterKorn> of journal articles are required to include clear language summaries (in keeping with WCAG 3 FPWD Clear Words exception), which are verified by paid editors, website visitors are not required to similarly make clear language summaries of the comments they submit on articles.
17:39:06 <sajkaj> q+
17:40:17 <sarahhorton> Janina: Work in audience, could run clear words checker on content, to some degree can encourage to write more clearly
17:40:39 <jeanne> q-
17:40:55 <PeterKorn> q+
17:41:12 <sajkaj> ack saj
17:41:13 <sarahhorton> ...topic of article influences language (e.g., virus article in academic journal vs newspaper)
17:41:14 <sajkaj> ack pet
17:41:34 <sarahhorton> Peter: might be different but related, site designed for a narrow audienc
17:41:42 <sarahhorton> s/audienc/audience
17:42:25 <PeterKorn> q+
17:42:33 <sarahhorton> Janina: Working to improve accessibility with math, chemistry, allow professional conversation and markup to support use of standard terminology in those fields
17:42:57 <sarahhorton> ...places where it's reasonable and not reasonable to aim for plain language
17:42:59 <sajkaj> q?
17:43:05 <sajkaj> ack pet
17:43:26 <sarahhorton> Peter: If we can't use clear words to describe topic, have exception that have summary
17:43:31 <jeanne> +1 to Lainey Feingold's site
17:44:04 <sarahhorton> ...hard to craft clear word summary that conveys concepts in some contexts
17:44:25 <sarahhorton> ...tool can't assess if it's an accurate summary
17:44:47 <sarahhorton> ...what do we do about that?
17:45:13 <sajkaj> q?
17:45:47 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Use case about whether the content is clear to audience? Or are we talking about whether the information is exact?
17:46:24 <JF> +1 to janina - that's a perennial issue at APA
17:47:17 <sarahhorton> Janina: Example, provide plain language summary of what API does, situations where people write complex stuff, always useful to have plain language summary
17:47:54 <sajkaj> q?
17:48:11 <sarahhorton> Jemma: What about exception process?
17:48:11 <PeterKorn> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#clear-words
17:49:25 <sarahhorton> Peter: Looking for exceptions
17:49:45 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Knows more work needed in exceptions for clear words
17:50:00 <sajkaj> q?
17:50:36 <sarahhorton> Peter: Maybe not useful yet, pointing out what's known that more work needed on clear words/exceptions
17:50:56 <Jemma> agenda?
17:51:00 <sarahhorton> Janina: Could pause work on it
17:51:24 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Exceptions were in early drafts but no exceptions section on template
17:52:21 <sarahhorton> Peter: Pivot to focus on general public site for narrow audience, what to do about lack of clear words when audience is specific
17:52:28 <jeanne> q+
17:52:54 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Glossary of terms, linked elsewhere, comply to current WCAG?
17:53:19 <sarahhorton> Janina: Professional site wouldn't want that level of glossary
17:54:19 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Not covered by WCAG AA; Clear words links to glossary 2 points, link to 1-click definition 3 points
17:54:47 <sarahhorton> ...test tool allows loading of vocabulary, can load appropriate vocabulary for audience
17:55:06 <sarahhorton> ...good use case, worth looking at
17:55:19 <sarahhorton> Janina: Summary useful to professionals
17:56:18 <sarahhorton> Peter: Important concept, helpful to lots of people, user-generated content hard to police and ensure accessible, harder in summary than alt-text
17:56:26 <JF> +1 to Peter, and/but how do we measure whether the definitions are 'sufficient' for X user?
17:56:38 <JF> Q+
17:56:53 <sajkaj> ack jf
17:56:55 <sarahhorton> ...websites with user-generated content can never pass bronze, reject most content because users aren't prepared to do that
17:57:35 <sarahhorton> JF: Agree about user-generated content, solutions like Facebook generating alternative text, pretty good
17:57:42 <jeanne> q-
17:57:46 <Jemma> q+
17:57:46 <sarahhorton> ...can be made accessible with intervention
17:58:01 <Wilco_> +1, good point
17:58:19 <sajkaj> q?
17:58:23 <sarahhorton> ...OCR is working for FB
17:58:25 <PeterKorn> q+
17:58:38 <sarahhorton> ...machines can fill some gaps
18:00:11 <sarahhorton> Jemma: If statement about audience can we get credit for that?
18:00:30 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Share with clear words
18:01:11 <Jemma> s/if statement/if there is accessiblity statement, clear langugae, regarding comments/
18:01:38 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/18-silver-conf-minutes.html sarahhorton
18:02:42 <sarahhorton> s/If statement/If there is accessiblity statement, clear langugae, regarding comments/
18:02:51 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/18-silver-conf-minutes.html sarahhorton
18:03:47 <sarahhorton> present+ Janina, Peter, Wilco
18:03:53 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/18-silver-conf-minutes.html sarahhorton