20:43:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:43:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-irc
20:43:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:43:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:43:41 <trackbot> Date: 17 February 2021
20:44:00 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:44:12 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:44:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:44:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:44:45 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:44:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
21:00:13 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:00:29 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:01 <DaveBr> DaveBr has joined #dxwgdcat
21:04:47 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:31 <DaveBr> present+
21:07:55 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:09:03 <alejandra> present+
21:13:46 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.02.17
21:13:56 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:13:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:14:58 <riccardoAlbertoni> Chair: RiccardoAlbertoni
21:16:12 <PWinstanley> scribenick: PWinstanley
21:16:17 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:16:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:16:25 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2021/02/03-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:16:27 <AndreaPerego> topic: approve last meeting minutes
21:16:31 <PWinstanley> proposed: Accept minutes of last meeting
21:16:37 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:16:38 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2021/02/03-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:16:43 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:17:03 <DaveBr> +1
21:17:04 <PWinstanley> 0 - not there
21:17:08 <alejandra> 0 - not present
21:17:27 <PWinstanley> resolved: Accept minutes of last meeting
21:17:36 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:17:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:17:38 <alejandra> +q
21:17:40 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.02.17
21:17:41 <AndreaPerego> topic: approve agenda
21:17:45 <PWinstanley> alejandra:
21:18:22 <PWinstanley> alejandra: can we add the issue of representing software to the agenda?
21:18:54 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: perhaps after the discussion of the two PRs
21:19:18 <PWinstanley> topic: PR about dataset series
21:19:42 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: we got positive feedback for proposing to handle data series
21:19:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> PR 1292
21:19:55 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/1292
21:20:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-dataseries-issue1272/dcat/index.html#Class:DatasetSeries
21:20:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-dataseries-issue1272/dcat/index.html#dataset-series
21:20:37 <PWinstanley> ... new classes have been added into the normative part.  guidelines have been added in the non-normative - how to document datasets that are series
21:21:18 <PWinstanley> ... looking at the normative part there are some issues, mainly editorial.  A new section is added
21:21:50 <riccardoAlbertoni> adms:next and adms:prev.
21:22:06 <alejandra> +q
21:22:06 <PWinstanley> ... the 2 notes are discussing the need for more properties - adms:next & adms:prev
21:22:22 <AndreaPerego> ack alejandra
21:23:00 <PWinstanley> alejandra: one suggestion - can we also have github issues for these as it will make it more visible.  Feedback - I've not seen it
21:23:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> #1272
21:23:25 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the feedback is on the issue #1272
21:23:52 <PWinstanley> ... I would hope that we can resolve this easily, but opening an issue is a good idea
21:24:30 <PWinstanley> alejandra: the PR is just a draft - is it ready for review?
21:24:54 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: we can discuss in this call and see if it is ready for merging
21:25:03 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:25:09 <PWinstanley> ... there might need to be small amendments
21:25:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack
21:25:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:25:55 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I think that is is worth getting more feedback.  This new class might have an impact on existing implementations
21:26:12 <alejandra> Checking adms:next (https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-adms/#adms-next) it refers to the next version of the Asset, I think that what we want is to point to the next dataset in the series instead
21:27:25 <PWinstanley> ... Perhaps we should analyse the implications.  One issue is that there already notions of series within communities of practice, and we might be attempting to define a compromise.  E.g. ISO 19115 - the dataseries is a hierarchical collection of datasets
21:27:42 <PWinstanley> ... the parent-child relations are diverse
21:27:58 <alejandra> +q
21:28:00 <PWinstanley> ... we need to consider these types of requirements
21:28:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack alejandra
21:29:22 <PWinstanley> alejandra: +1 to AndreaPerego .  but also that we need to include data series.  I liked the draft pointing to geoDCAT-AP and bringing in what was decided in those communities so that we don't conflict with their representation.  But I think it should be in the next PWD
21:29:53 <PWinstanley> ... re: adms:next - it seems to address sequences of versions rather than the next element in a series
21:30:34 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I propose to leave the PR as a draft and include comments from this meeting before considering merging.  Is this ok?
21:30:40 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:30:41 <DaveBr> +1
21:30:47 <alejandra> +1
21:30:48 <PWinstanley> proposed: continue with discussion on the PR
21:30:59 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:31:05 <PWinstanley> resolved: continue with discussion on the PR
21:31:33 <AndreaPerego> topic: PR on versioning
21:31:40 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:32:02 <AndreaPerego> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/1295
21:32:03 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: AndreaPerego has prepared the PR
21:32:14 <PWinstanley> ... I support equivalence with PAV
21:32:15 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-versioning-v2/dcat/index.html#dataset-versions
21:33:47 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: a second draft of the versioning section.  The first had just a couple of paras indicating that we were not going to take a position, but this was challenged and so we are taking one.  The survey of the current landscape reviews notions of version types
21:34:05 <PWinstanley> ... and we provide some lightweight guidance
21:34:42 <PWinstanley> ... other sections are focusing on specific types of version - new resource; revision; correction; etc
21:35:38 <PWinstanley> ... these sections cover version information, and also about backward compatibility.  Also, we consider lifecycle.  Some institutions have a formal review process that needs to be catered for.
21:36:41 <PWinstanley> ... After drafting there was a realisation that this review isn't going to provide guidance.  One aspect that people are looking into, needing more guidance, is 'version as revision'.  This has been updated in the PR.
21:37:13 <PWinstanley> ... There is now an explicit statement of what we are providing guidance on
21:39:01 <PWinstanley> ... We are proposing using PAV equivalents in the DCAT namespace.  This is mainly because PAV is not under good maintenance - so minting in the DCAT namespace is safer
21:39:58 <alejandra> Comment by Stian about PAV: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1280#issuecomment-734397742
21:41:04 <PWinstanley> ... relationships - version chain/hierarchy; replacement; backward compatibility
21:41:07 <PWinstanley> q+
21:42:19 <PWinstanley> ... Issues for consideration - backward compatibility;  version identifiers
21:43:14 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:43:15 <PWinstanley> ... in the new proposal there is another PAV equivalent - dcat:Version
21:44:01 <alejandra> q?
21:44:01 <PWinstanley> ... there is also another section on complimentary approaches to versioning
21:45:15 <alejandra> +q
21:45:36 <PWinstanley> ... the owl version predicate is meant to be used for ontologies, and DC  version predicates are too broad in their domain
21:45:36 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack PWinstanley
21:45:55 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
21:45:59 <alejandra> PWinstanley: versions are used for different things
21:46:21 <alejandra> ... also compability of things, either doing analysis, having multiple datasets and want to be able to see that these ones are compatible with your analysis
21:46:35 <alejandra> ... in the latter case, you often deal with a range
21:46:46 <alejandra> ... has there been any kind of thought about this in the solution?
21:46:59 <alejandra> ... we're going to be looking at automating data processing pipelines
21:47:07 <alejandra> ... we don't want to have a human in the loop
21:47:39 <alejandra> ... compatibility ranges
21:48:20 <alejandra> I think this can be done combining version and dataset series
21:51:11 <alejandra> PWinstanley: automated pipeline
21:51:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack alejandra
21:52:47 <PWinstanley> alejandra: the versioning section is looking good - I like the diags etc and I agree we need the PAV equivalents added
21:54:10 <PWinstanley> ... One question - owl:versionInfo is mainly used for ontologies, but perhaps it is generic enough for our use.  Why did we change from thinking that this existing pred could be used?
21:55:22 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: it was one of the things I was unsure about, but once the decision had been made to focus on a specific notion of version the consequence was that we needed to pay closer attention to the semantics, and so to be crystal clear the decision was to use a re-minted PAV
21:55:33 <PWinstanley> ... but this is just a proposal
21:56:07 <alejandra> +q
21:56:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:57:02 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1280#issuecomment-734397742
21:57:27 <PWinstanley> ... The initial plan was not to create new properties in this space, but after changing direction it made sense to bring in a wider set. There was feedback to support this.  But it is still up for discussion
21:58:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack alejandra
21:58:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:58:18 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I added the link to Stian's comment.
21:59:14 <PWinstanley> ... Perhaps distinguishing datasets from ontologies is a good reason to move, even though use of owl:versionInfo isn't formally an error
21:59:55 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: we could relate the owl:versionInfo to the newly minted pros within DCAT
21:59:59 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:00:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack
22:00:19 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
22:00:25 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack RRSAgent
22:00:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:00:36 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: we have another option - using complimentary vocabs .  multiple vocabs could be used
22:00:45 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
22:00:48 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
22:00:50 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
22:01:03 <alejandra> s/even though use of owl:versionInfo isn't formally an error/ even though formally using owl:versionInfo doesn't mean that the entity is an ontology
22:01:22 <alejandra> +q
22:01:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
22:01:48 <alejandra> q-
22:02:07 <PWinstanley> ... if there is a need to migrate/upgrade, the use of e.g. DC vocabs isn't a problem.  However, I don't think dcat:version should be a subprop of owl:version has implications for the interpretation (wrong interp) of PAV
22:02:55 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I would like a vocab about versioning that is not 'just another vocab about versioning'/
22:03:17 <PWinstanley> ... we should relate to other approaches
22:03:30 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:03:35 <AndreaPerego> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:04:53 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego: I understand your concerns riccardoAlbertoni , but we are creating a vocab for versioning things that are in the catalogue, for resources.
22:05:20 <PWinstanley> +1 to AndreaPerego  point about this being for versioning catalogue items
22:05:51 <PWinstanley> ... I'm not saying that we use one or another, they can be used together, but they are not the same things
22:06:33 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:06:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:06:35 <alejandra> yes, we should continue the discussion in the PR
22:06:39 <AndreaPerego> topic:AOB
22:06:52 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: no other business
22:07:08 <PWinstanley> ... thanks for a good discussion
22:07:12 <PWinstanley> bye
22:07:16 <AndreaPerego> bye
22:07:19 <DaveBr> bye
22:07:21 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye
22:07:25 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:07:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:08:09 <AndreaPerego> present+ PWinstanley
22:08:10 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:08:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego