IRC log of silver-conf on 2021-02-11
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:46:25 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
- 16:46:25 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-irc
- 16:46:37 [sajkaj]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 16:46:54 [sajkaj]
- Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
- 16:47:02 [sajkaj]
- Date: 11 Feb 2021
- 16:47:06 [sajkaj]
- Chair: sajka
- 16:47:12 [sajkaj]
- agenda?
- 16:47:18 [sajkaj]
- Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
- 16:47:18 [sajkaj]
- agenda+ Revisiting Principle #6 re Critical Failures
- 16:47:18 [sajkaj]
- agenda+ Use Cases Discussion (Continued)
- 16:47:18 [sajkaj]
- agenda+ Other Business
- 16:47:18 [sajkaj]
- agenda+ Be Done
- 16:50:21 [sajkaj]
- Regrets: Wilco, Azlan
- 16:50:25 [sajkaj]
- present+
- 16:51:39 [sajkaj]
- regrets+ Bruce
- 16:52:10 [sajkaj]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
- 17:01:34 [Bryan]
- Bryan has joined #silver-conf
- 17:01:49 [JF]
- JF has joined #silver-conf
- 17:01:58 [JF]
- Present+
- 17:02:01 [JF]
- AGenda?
- 17:03:19 [PeterKorn]
- PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
- 17:03:22 [PeterKorn]
- present+
- 17:03:36 [JF]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:03:36 [Zakim]
- Present: sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn
- 17:03:38 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see PeterKorn, JF, Bryan, RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, Jemma, Rachael, trackbot
- 17:04:01 [John_Northup]
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- 17:04:10 [Bryan]
- present+
- 17:04:42 [John_Northup]
- present+
- 17:04:47 [John_Northup]
- scribe: John_Northup
- 17:05:33 [KimD]
- KimD has joined #silver-conf
- 17:05:40 [sarahhorton]
- sarahhorton has joined #silver-conf
- 17:06:01 [sarahhorton]
- present+
- 17:06:47 [KimD]
- present+
- 17:06:49 [sajkaj]
- zakim, next item
- 17:06:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from sajkaj]
- 17:07:13 [Jemma]
- present+
- 17:07:30 [JF]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:07:31 [Zakim]
- Present: sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn, Bryan, John_Northup, sarahhorton, KimD, Jemma
- 17:07:33 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see sarahhorton, KimD, John_Northup, PeterKorn, JF, Bryan, RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, Jemma, Rachael, trackbot
- 17:07:52 [JF]
- Present+ Jeanne Spellman
- 17:07:58 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Some inconsistencies between google doc and working draft.
- 17:08:23 [sajkaj]
- zakim, next item
- 17:08:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- Revisiting Principle #6 re Critical Failures -- taken up [from sajkaj]
- 17:09:00 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Revisiting principle 6; what is a critical error.
- 17:09:12 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:10:33 [sajkaj]
- q+ to reconsider programatic solutions to flash, audio on load, etc
- 17:10:46 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:10:58 [Rachael]
- q+
- 17:11:08 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:11:38 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne: Rachael and I do not disagree on critical errors; it's the final resolution of the critical error. Concern that critical error for flashing (zero) may be averaged out by higher scores in other areas and thus overlooked.
- 17:12:01 [PeterKorn]
- https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#conformance-levels-0
- 17:12:02 [sajkaj]
- ack p
- 17:12:12 [PeterKorn]
- For content that conforms to the bronze level: The total score and score within each of the functional categories MUST be at least 3.5; and Views and processes MUST NOT have critical errors.
- 17:14:00 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:14:25 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Doesn't see how the calculation method could result in the outcome that Jeanne describes.
- 17:15:54 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne & Peter: Discussion on calculations and possible outcomes.
- 17:16:43 [sajkaj]
- ack ra
- 17:17:36 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:17:38 [John_Northup]
- Rachael: Low scoring items that are not critical do balance out, but the purpose of the critcial error is to be a hard stop. Would not agree with a model that passed critical errors.
- 17:18:09 [JF]
- Q+
- 17:18:24 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:18:50 [sajkaj]
- ack jf
- 17:19:14 [Rachael]
- q+
- 17:19:25 [John_Northup]
- John F: Ensure we are not focusing on flashing; other errors are critical.
- 17:19:39 [John_Northup]
- Janina: ... but flashing is life-threatening...
- 17:19:57 [John_Northup]
- John F: Other things can be life threatening too depending on content and context.
- 17:20:05 [sajkaj]
- ack p
- 17:20:53 [Bryan]
- q+
- 17:21:04 [John_Northup]
- Peter: There has been a discussion about the difference between content itself being life-threatening, and the context being life-threatening.
- 17:21:11 [Rachael]
- q-
- 17:22:32 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Marvel film trailer may trigger a seizure. Does it make a difference if the content is third-party? Do we treat this content differently if there is a warning?
- 17:25:12 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Proposal to look at WCAG 2; possibility to programmatically correct problems; e.g., user agent detecting and stopping flashing.
- 17:25:27 [sajkaj]
- ack sa
- 17:25:27 [Zakim]
- sajkaj, you wanted to reconsider programatic solutions to flash, audio on load, etc
- 17:25:30 [sajkaj]
- ack br
- 17:25:36 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:26:30 [Jemma]
- q+
- 17:26:46 [John_Northup]
- Brian: Challenging/impossible to catch every use case; need to keep it simple to drive adoption.
- 17:27:07 [sajkaj]
- ack je
- 17:27:48 [John_Northup]
- Jemma: If blocking a video is preferable to warning, how to score that?
- 17:27:51 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Don't know yet.
- 17:28:06 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:28:34 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Focus on creating use cases; then will move toward solutions.
- 17:28:53 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:29:04 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne: Use cases valuable at this stage.
- 17:29:49 [John_Northup]
- Peter: More to discuss about bugs?
- 17:30:04 [Rachael]
- q+
- 17:30:06 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Do we have an opinion on what should happen when a critical error is found?
- 17:30:46 [John_Northup]
- John F: Do you mean time frame for remediation? A score is at a certain point in time...
- 17:30:58 [sajkaj]
- q+
- 17:31:26 [John_Northup]
- John F: Discussion of lag time between scoring and remediation - if no followup evaluation, then old score is still the latest.
- 17:31:34 [Bryan]
- q+
- 17:31:38 [Rachael]
- q-
- 17:31:44 [sajkaj]
- ack ja
- 17:31:49 [sajkaj]
- ack sa
- 17:31:49 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Scheduling by priority...
- 17:32:49 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:33:27 [sarahhorton]
- q+
- 17:33:28 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne: Met yesterday with DHS Trusted Tester, discussed measuring a11y errors compared to other bugs. They were cautiously enthusiastic.
- 17:34:59 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne: Goal is a11y bugs treated same as other bugs. Just as critical as security or usability bugs.
- 17:35:32 [JF]
- Q+ to note that a11y, security and privacy bugs are *MORE* critical than other software bugs, due to legal obligations.
- 17:35:52 [John_Northup]
- Jeanne: They are enthusiastic about the point system and critical errors because it helps with VPAT
- 17:36:00 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:36:04 [sajkaj]
- ack br
- 17:36:47 [John_Northup]
- Bryan: Likes prioritizing by severity.
- 17:37:08 [sajkaj]
- ack sa
- 17:37:28 [John_Northup]
- Sarah: Are we talking about bugs as equivalent to critical errors, or bugs with different degrees of severity?
- 17:37:44 [John_Northup]
- Janina: Trying to specify that a11y bugs are as important as other bugs; not de-prioritized.
- 17:37:50 [John_Northup]
- q+
- 17:38:05 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:38:41 [sajkaj]
- ack jf
- 17:38:42 [Zakim]
- JF, you wanted to note that a11y, security and privacy bugs are *MORE* critical than other software bugs, due to legal obligations.
- 17:38:59 [JF]
- Precious metals like gold and silver are measured using the “troy” system where there are 12 ounces in a pound. If you normalize everything to mass a pound of feathers is 454 grams and a pound of gold is 373 grams, therefore the feathers are technically heavier.
- 17:39:07 [John_Northup]
- John F: Bugs related to security, privacy, a11y... not all bugs are created equal.
- 17:40:01 [John_Northup]
- John F: Legal obligation puts a11y ahead of other bugs.
- 17:40:18 [sajkaj]
- ack jo
- 17:40:30 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:41:02 [John_Northup]
- John N: Likes the idea of commingling a11y and other types of bugs, so that a11y isn't diminished.
- 17:41:41 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:41:45 [sajkaj]
- ack p
- 17:42:38 [John_Northup]
- Peter: So much content is programmatically-generated--a bug in the script that generates content over several pages, which may become critical.
- 17:42:51 [sarahhorton]
- q+
- 17:43:27 [John_Northup]
- Janina: The challenge is finding those instances.
- 17:43:46 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:44:31 [sajkaj]
- ack sa
- 17:45:08 [John_Northup]
- Sarah: Perhaps not refer to "critical bugs" due to confusion with existing term "critical errors".
- 17:45:26 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:46:05 [Jemma]
- q+
- 17:46:13 [Bryan]
- q+
- 17:46:18 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Discussing equivalence across diff types of bugs (security vs a11y)...
- 17:46:20 [JF]
- Q+
- 17:46:20 [sajkaj]
- ack je
- 17:47:02 [John_Northup]
- Jemma: Seeking clarity around critical errors
- 17:48:45 [John_Northup]
- Sarah: Not quite far enough along with Errors work to definitively answer.
- 17:49:55 [John_Northup]
- Bryan: Is the word "critical" a stumbling block, even though the general principle is appropriate...
- 17:49:55 [sajkaj]
- q?
- 17:50:02 [sajkaj]
- ack br
- 17:50:50 [John_Northup]
- Sarah: Principle is sound. Use case introduces the issue of time... should that factor into the conformance model...
- 17:51:13 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:52:25 [sajkaj]
- ack jf
- 17:54:17 [John_Northup]
- John F: Just because something is critical, the fix may not take immediate effect. Score could change moment by moment as content changes...
- 17:54:22 [sajkaj]
- ack p
- 17:55:24 [JF]
- Time issue *IS* real, but shold it have an impact on "Score"?
- 17:56:08 [sarahhorton]
- q+
- 17:56:43 [Jemma]
- I think that Peter is touching the issue of impact scope of "critical error"
- 17:56:56 [John_Northup]
- Peter: Acknowleging the time issue, while we also try to consider a11y in the context of other bugs...
- 17:56:59 [John_Northup]
- q+
- 17:57:00 [sajkaj]
- ack s
- 17:58:00 [JF]
- Q+ to note that "culture" is a conce3rn in large orgs, maybe less so at "Joe's Pizzaria"
- 17:58:07 [John_Northup]
- Sarah: Much about culture/practice/procedures that should weigh into conformance - beyond just products...
- 18:00:23 [PeterKorn]
- bye bye
- 18:01:53 [sajkaj]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:01:53 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
- 18:01:58 [sajkaj]
- zakim, bye
- 18:01:58 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn, Bryan, John_Northup, sarahhorton, KimD, Jemma, Jeanne, Spellman
- 18:01:58 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #silver-conf
- 18:01:59 [sajkaj]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:01:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
- 18:03:57 [sajkaj]
- rrsagent, bye
- 18:03:57 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items