17:58:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:58:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-aria-irc
17:59:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Follow-up: tree inclusion of focusable elements from #1100<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381>
17:59:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:01 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:59:07 <jamesn> agenda?
18:00:09 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:00:16 <jamesn> agenda+ rechartering
18:00:42 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:00:55 <pkra> present+
18:02:08 <jamesn> regrets+ SinaBahram IsabelHoldsworth HarrisSchneiderman MarkMcCarthy
18:02:40 <carmacleod> carmacleod has joined #aria
18:02:46 <carmacleod> present+
18:02:59 <jcraig> present+
18:03:04 <jcraig> scribe:jcraig
18:03:05 <jamesn> agenda+ CR?
18:03:07 <msumner> msumner has joined #aria
18:03:35 <jamesn> agenda is 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8
18:04:01 <jamesn> agenda order = 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8
18:04:09 <jamesn> zakim, agenda order = 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8
18:04:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda order = 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8', jamesn
18:04:14 <Jemma> present+
18:04:17 <jamesn> zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,9,4,5,6,7,8
18:04:17 <Zakim> ok, jamesn
18:04:24 <jamesn> agenda?
18:04:25 <msumner> present+
18:04:38 <jamesn> agenda- 10
18:04:57 <jcraig> Zakim, take up item 1
18:04:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- New Issue Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-21+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fc
18:05:00 <Zakim> ... ore-aam&type=Issues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:04 <jamesn> https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-21+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues
18:05:44 <jcraig> Should aria-rowindex/colindex really set the position? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1386
18:05:55 <jcraig> jamesn: 1.4?
18:06:07 <jcraig> no disagreement.
18:06:24 <jcraig> New ARIA attribute for possible interactions like delete, edit, move https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1385
18:07:22 <jcraig> StefanS: 2 examples. tokenizer like a tool list from Microsoft and "taps that can be deleted" from personalization
18:07:25 <jcraig> q+
18:07:38 <jcraig> StefanS: I could assemble a list
18:08:02 <jcraig> ack me
18:08:13 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:08:33 <jcraig> jcraig: relate to the Actions issue #762...
18:08:42 <jcraig> jamesn: same milestone too
18:08:51 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:08:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- New PR Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-21+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aa
18:08:54 <Zakim> ... m&type=Issues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:08:55 <jcraig> no new PRs
18:08:56 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, jcraig
18:09:11 <jcraig> zakim, close this item
18:09:11 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
18:09:12 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:12 <Zakim> 3. 1.2 Status [from agendabot]
18:09:14 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:09:14 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.2 Status -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:37 <jcraig> jamesn: we have a TAG review
18:09:59 <jcraig> we have an issue from the PrivacyWG
18:10:11 <jcraig> working on Sec and i18n reviews
18:10:21 <jcraig> should be able to move forward to CR
18:10:43 <jcraig> one remaining issue #1100, could mark as at-risk
18:10:57 <jcraig> and pull it out before CR if not resolved
18:11:43 <jcraig> s/PrivacyWG/PrivacyWG #1371/
18:11:54 <carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1371
18:12:42 <jcraig> i18n tracker is #1365
18:12:47 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1365
18:13:04 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:13:04 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- rechartering -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:13:09 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:13:18 <Matt_King> present+
18:14:07 <jcraig> jamesn: prior deep dive meeting: moving ARIA spec to evergreen aka "ever-teal" (scribe: 🙄)
18:14:40 <jcraig> jamesn: need aria 1.2 in CR first, before starting the recharter that would be needed for ever-tealing
18:15:07 <jcraig> Matt_King: I don't see a need to rush the recharter... to what benefit?
18:16:13 <jcraig> jamesn: process could allow CR to snapshot versions. or you could have a permanent PR that has versions pushed to it...
18:16:30 <jcraig> I want this for the 1.3 timeline, hence the earlier recharter
18:17:06 <jcraig> Matt_King: possible to complete recharter ahead of 1.3 timeline?
18:17:18 <jcraig> jamesn: maybe, but realistically by Oct
18:17:48 <jcraig> any restriction of switching 1.3 to ever-teal with a recharter?
18:18:24 <jcraig> MichaelC: should switch when WG charter switches, so nothing to worry about re: precendent
18:18:49 <jcraig> Matt_King: jamesn your proposal seems reasonable
18:19:25 <jcraig> jamesn: we only push to stable when stable with 2 implementations anyway
18:19:49 <jcraig> discussion of green / teal / blue
18:20:42 <Jemma> agenda?
18:21:43 <carmacleod_> carmacleod_ has joined #aria
18:21:51 <carmacleod_> present+
18:22:21 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:22:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=I
18:22:25 <Zakim> ... ssues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:22:58 <jamesn> https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=issues
18:23:46 <carmacleod_> https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=issues
18:24:30 <jcraig> pkra: WebAIM discussion about trees?
18:25:34 <jcraig> summary of WebAIM thread re: frustration with trees (not being native controls?)
18:26:06 <jamesn> q+ melanie
18:26:26 <jcraig> ack Matt_King
18:26:27 <jamesn> ack mel
18:26:33 <jcraig> ack msumner
18:27:05 <jcraig> msumner: any process on starting on 1.3 issues?
18:27:16 <jcraig> jamesn: just start on it... and thank you
18:27:38 <jcraig> carmacleod_: take assignment
18:28:13 <jcraig> s/assignment/assignment to avoid risk of duplicated effort/
18:28:21 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:28:22 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:28:22 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Reminder: Accname feedback needed<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:29:02 <CurtBellew> present +
18:29:07 <jcraig> jamesn: no responses to Bryan's thread re AccName... please everyone look again?
18:29:45 <jcraig> or would people prefer a GitHub issue?
18:29:58 <jamesn> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html
18:30:12 <jcraig> +1 for GH issue
18:30:21 <siri> present+
18:30:23 <msumner>  another +1 for GitHub issue
18:32:39 <jamesn> action: jamesn to post ACCNAME discussion thread as a github issue
18:33:17 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:33:17 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Updated aria-setsize and aria-posinset to clarify usage for authors<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:34:30 <jcraig> msumner: I will follow up
18:34:33 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:34:33 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Spec is unclear on aria-invalid="spelling" | "grammar" uses<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:34:55 <Jemma> nick/jemma
18:35:29 <jcraig> jamesn: newest change conflicts with use of spelling/grammar
18:35:37 <jcraig> Matt_King:
18:35:57 <jcraig> Matt_King: maybe, or is aria-invalid the incorrect choice for those
18:36:13 <jcraig> carmacleod_: aria-proofing?
18:36:30 <jcraig> Matt_King: need to review our research on document revisions
18:36:57 <jcraig> s/revisions/annotations/
18:37:08 <jcraig> added comment role
18:38:23 <jcraig> jamesn: is a spelling error an "annotation"?
18:39:39 <jcraig> it's a substring associated with (call it "attribution", "annotation" whatever) some indicator, whether comment, warning, error, etc.
18:39:59 <jcraig> haven't seen any uses in the wild
18:40:11 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989#issuecomment-764860865
18:40:29 <jcraig> s/haven't seen any uses in the wild/Matt_King: haven't seen any uses in the wild/
18:40:42 <jcraig> s/it's a substring/jcraig: it's a substring/
18:41:04 <joanie> q+
18:41:05 <jcraig> jamesn: aaron implemented in chrome and its supported in JAWS 2020
18:41:24 <jcraig> ack joanie
18:41:27 <jamesn> sounds like folks agree with jaws-test https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989#issuecomment-765129090
18:42:13 <jcraig> joanie: web engines have built-in spell-check, they expose that platform API attribute in the way that the SRs expect.
18:42:26 <jcraig> has a start/end substring marker
18:43:19 <jcraig> the aria spelling indicator could be exposed as a text attr, or as an object attribute
18:43:23 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989#issuecomment-764890451 LOL
18:44:04 <jcraig> joanie: considering giant text aria... only a substring is invalid or misspelled, not the whole element (object)
18:45:32 <jcraig> jamesn: to move forward… we've deprecated in 1.2. we need to replace this usage or allow it again. how to proceed?
18:46:00 <jcraig> Matt_King: did we deprecate the other values, like grammar?
18:46:02 <jcraig> jamesn: No
18:46:22 <msumner> q+
18:47:35 <jamesn> ack mel
18:47:38 <jcraig> Matt_King: should this be about text instead of invalid, which is specific to elements?
18:47:42 <jcraig> ack msumner
18:48:05 <jcraig> msumner: was aria-invalid specific to give feedback on form input?
18:48:29 <jcraig> If so, we should come up with something different
18:48:40 <jcraig> Matt_King: it was originally a global
18:49:09 <jcraig> msumner: could resolve with AAM instruction to implementors
18:49:39 <jamesn> old issue - https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/103
18:50:08 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/751
18:50:11 <jcraig> Matt_King: could have only some values as global...
18:50:24 <jcraig> jcraig: that might be a complicated spec change.
18:51:49 <jcraig> is the consensus to make this global again?
18:52:03 <jcraig> s/is the /jamesn: is the /
18:52:23 <jcraig> msumner: I may have been convinced of the opposite
18:52:37 <Jemma> agenda?
18:52:41 <jcraig> (discussion of example edge cases)
18:53:43 <jcraig> Matt_King: user never has to know that spelling and grammar are communicated through aria-invalid... They will just perceive it as they would with native AT usage
18:53:56 <jcraig> so they wouldn't hear "invalid" for example
18:53:59 <msumner> I think we should get implementor feedback
18:54:14 <jcraig> jamesn: will someone take ownership and make a proposal?
18:56:46 <jcraig> carmacleod_: I am a hero (scribe embellished)
18:57:16 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:57:16 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Follow-up: tree inclusion of focusable elements from #1100<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:57:42 <carmacleod_> scribe: carmacleod
18:59:19 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381#issuecomment-765022696
19:00:03 <CurtBellew> I'm having computer issues.  I'm dropping off.  See you all next time
19:00:07 <carmacleod_> jcraig: if something is focusable but aria-hidden, it doesn't have to be included in the accessibility tree
19:00:43 <carmacleod_> mck: if it is included in the tree on focus, does it stay in the tree after blur?
19:00:52 <msumner> we need inert to be a real thing and not a polyfill
19:01:10 <carmacleod_> totally agree msumner
19:01:23 <carmacleod_> it's really close :)
19:02:23 <carmacleod_> jcraig: this is more of a stopgap until inert is fully implemented
19:04:03 <carmacleod_> jcraig: so we can use "while focused" instead of "if focused"
19:04:39 <carmacleod_> jamesn: we have to fix this before CR
19:04:56 <carmacleod_> jamesn: we should ping Aaron and James Teh
19:05:09 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
19:05:09 <Zakim> Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, pkra, carmacleod, jcraig, Jemma, msumner, Matt_King, carmacleod_, siri
19:05:49 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
19:05:53 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
19:05:59 <jamesn> present+
19:06:25 <carmacleod_> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-aria-minutes.html carmacleod_
19:12:12 <jamesn> zakim, part
19:12:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, pkra, carmacleod, jcraig, Jemma, msumner, Matt_King, carmacleod_, siri, jamesn
19:12:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:12:31 <jamesn> rrsagent, part
19:12:31 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-aria-actions.rdf :
19:12:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jamesn to post ACCNAME discussion thread as a github issue [1]
19:12:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-aria-irc#T18-32-39