17:55:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:55:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-aria-irc
17:55:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:55:35 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:56:04 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0053.html
17:56:05 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:56:05 <agendabot> agenda+ New Issue Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-14+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues>
17:56:05 <agendabot> agenda+ New PR Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-14+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues>
17:56:06 <agendabot> agenda+ Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=Issues>
17:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ AccName<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html>
17:56:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Follow-up: tree inclusion of focusable elements from #1100<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381>
17:56:12 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:56:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Updated aria-setsize and aria-posinset to clarify usage for authors<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332>
17:56:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Spec is unclear on aria-invalid="spelling" | "grammar" uses<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989>
17:56:18 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:56:21 <agendabot> agenda+ 1.3 triage<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc>
17:58:45 <jamesn> agenda- 1
17:58:49 <jamesn> agenda- 2
18:00:44 <Isabel> Isabel has joined #aria
18:00:57 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:01:38 <pkra> present+
18:01:51 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:03:03 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:03:06 <harris> harris has joined #aria
18:03:15 <harris> present+
18:04:06 <harris> scribe: harris
18:04:10 <harris> zakim, agenda?
18:04:10 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:11 <Zakim> 3. Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=Issues>
18:04:11 <Zakim> ... [from agendabot]
18:04:11 <Zakim> 4. AccName<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html> [from agendabot]
18:04:11 <Zakim> 5. Follow-up: tree inclusion of focusable elements from #1100<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381> [from agendabot]
18:04:15 <Zakim> 6. Updated aria-setsize and aria-posinset to clarify usage for authors<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332> [from agendabot]
18:04:15 <Zakim> 7. Spec is unclear on aria-invalid="spelling" | "grammar" uses<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989> [from agendabot]
18:04:15 <Zakim> 8. 1.3 triage<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc> [from agendabot]
18:04:16 <harris> zakim, next item
18:04:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=I
18:04:19 <Zakim> ... ssues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:28 <carmacleod> carmacleod has joined #aria
18:04:40 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:04:47 <siri> present +
18:04:51 <harris> carmacleod: are we ready to start discussing evergreen?
18:04:56 <carmacleod> present+
18:05:06 <harris> carmcleod: at the moment there is an issue but nothing in it
18:05:13 <StefanS> present+
18:06:35 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2020/Process-20200915/
18:06:37 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:06:44 <jcraig> Cooper: iii-iiiiiii-aaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaahhhhh
18:06:47 <harris> MichaelC: I don't think w3c has a specific guidance for that. The process doc has part of that and there might be a wiki page
18:07:20 <harris> jamesn: anyone think we shouldn't talk about this in a deep dive?
18:07:31 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards
18:07:33 <jcraig> q+
18:08:09 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Process2020
18:09:17 <harris> jamesn: is there anyone who has gone through this before that we could speak with?
18:09:24 <harris> MichaelC: I think css has gone through this
18:10:49 <harris> jamesn: if we're ready to discuss this by tuesday then we can deep dive it
18:10:58 <harris> jamesn: anyone want to suggest a backup?
18:11:09 <harris> q- jcraig
18:11:31 <harris> jcraig: we start with aam that moves to evergreen
18:11:37 <harris> jamesn: I think we already decided that
18:11:46 <harris> jamesn: working groups have already discussed that actually
18:12:03 <harris> jcraig: maybe the next step is to get through that process of moving AAM, so then the discussion will be more informed
18:12:41 <harris> MichaelC: everyone will get booted out of the group and rejoin
18:13:03 <harris> carmacleod: I agree that we should go through the AAM first
18:13:13 <harris> carmacleod: what about html-aria?
18:13:47 <harris> jamesn: html-aam is an on the rec track. I assume anyone who uses it looks at the editor's draft
18:14:00 <jcraig> Here's the AAM issue... https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/81 I recalled an earlier one but no matter.
18:14:59 <harris> MichaelC: I think we need to kick off some work here
18:15:02 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:15:12 <harris> MichaelC: We've never sat down and said "ok this is our work plan"
18:15:41 <harris> jamesn: It sounds like we have a topic for a deep dive -- how are we going to implement this evergreen plan
18:16:55 <MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy has joined #aria
18:16:59 <MarkMccarthy> present+
18:17:09 <harris> zakim, next item
18:17:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- AccName<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:47 <harris> jamesn: bryan sent out a message asking for clarification on some accName questions. I propose we talk about them here to make sure we're all on a similar page
18:17:59 <jamesn>  <div id="p">
18:17:59 <jamesn> <button id="test" aria-labelledby="p" >Screen Text</button>
18:17:59 <jamesn> </div>
18:18:21 <harris> jamesn: what would you expect the accessible name to be?
18:18:22 <Isabel> Isabel has joined #aria
18:19:13 <harris> jamesn: myself and joanie came to an agreement on it being "Screen text"
18:20:11 <harris> jcraig: because the div is ambiguous as to the role, it is not clear if contents is included in that context. it's not clear if the name gets bubbled back up to that context
18:20:32 <harris> jcraig: the labelledby refers to an empty string
18:20:36 <siri> what scenario will this be used?
18:21:12 <jamesn> Otherwise, if the current node's role allows name from content, or if the current node is referenced by aria-labelledby, aria-describedby, or is a native host language text alternative element (e.g. label in HTML), or is a descendant of a native host language text alternative element:
18:21:36 <harris> Bryan: the reason I put that one in there, if you look at chrome, it has no label
18:21:48 <harris> jamesn: Firefox and safari agree though
18:22:13 <harris> Bryan: all of these examples have ambiguities on what is meant by self-referencing
18:22:33 <harris> jamesn: which part of the spec are you referring to when you say "self-referencing"?
18:22:43 <harris> jamesn: where is that in the spec language
18:23:07 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.2/
18:23:11 <harris> jcraig: I'm having a little trouble following 2e/2f
18:23:24 <harris> jcraig: the lettering/numbering is no longer there in the editor's draft
18:23:59 <carmacleod> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.2/#step2F
18:24:18 <harris> jcraig: the accumulated text doesn't include the contents, right?
18:24:44 <harris> jcraig: because it says "if its referenced by aria-labelledby" and it says to include the child nodes...yea I agree
18:25:55 <harris> Bryan: self referencing is something causing some sort of loop to occur
18:26:10 <harris> Bryan: like you said (jamesn), it's not defined anywhere
18:26:37 <jcraig> q+ to mention webdriver computedLabel for this context
18:26:58 <carmacleod> second example:
18:27:00 <carmacleod> <div id="p"> <button id="test" aria-labelledby="p" >Screen Text</button> </div>
18:27:06 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
18:27:16 <harris> q- jcraig
18:27:59 <harris> jcraig: last year webdriver added computed role/label. I don't recall if it implemented in webkit yet
18:28:43 <harris> jcraig: writing some platform test for this would allow us to get an automated report on what is working and what is not
18:29:11 <harris> jcraig: the algorithm is getting so complex. that explains why there are different implementation for it. Automation is the path forward
18:29:45 <harris> Bryan: in this case, I'm just trying to figure out what should be happening. I can't move forward until we settle this
18:30:50 <harris> Bryan: button does support a value
18:30:58 <harris> jamesn: one wouldn't expect that to be shown to a user
18:31:13 <harris> jamesn: I think we have a typo in the spec regarding value
18:31:29 <harris> jamesn: they were intending to talk about menubutton not button
18:32:15 <jcraig> s/added computed role/added computedRole/
18:32:45 <jcraig> s/label. I/computedLabel. I/
18:32:56 <harris> Bryan: if you have a collection of radio buttons you don't want to return the value, you want the human readable text to be returned
18:33:27 <jcraig> s/if it implemented in webkit yet/if it's implemented in any of the rendering engines yet/
18:33:43 <harris> Bryan: form field and widget are used interchangeably in accName
18:33:51 <harris> jamesn: we don't use the term form field in it at all though
18:34:00 <harris> Bryan: but it still has to work with form field
18:34:29 <jcraig> s/some platform test/some Web Platform Tests (WPT) using WebDriver computedLabel/
18:35:57 <harris> Bryan: what happens if we have an aria-labelledby attribute which references the parent element and that same element (self)
18:36:04 <carmacleod> third example, with 2 different self-referencing processes:
18:36:06 <harris> jamesn: this one is slightly more difficult
18:36:07 <carmacleod> <div id="p"> <i id="q">Outside Text</i> <button id="test" aria-labelledby="p q" >Screen Text</button> </div>
18:36:26 <harris> jamesn: can aria-labelledby reference the same element multiple times?
18:36:43 <harris> jamesn: like <button aria-labelledby="q q q">...
18:37:21 <harris> Stefan: it's an authoring error
18:38:21 <harris> jamesn: should this be forbidden?
18:39:48 <jamesn> <h1>Files</h1>
18:39:48 <jamesn> <ul>
18:39:48 <jamesn>   <li>
18:39:48 <jamesn>     <a id="file_row1" href="./files/Documentation.pdf">Documentation.pdf</a>
18:39:48 <jamesn>     <span role="button" tabindex="0" id="del_row1" aria-label="Delete" aria-labelledby="del_row1 file_row1"></span>
18:39:49 <jamesn>   </li>
18:39:49 <jamesn>   <li>
18:39:49 <jamesn>     <a id="file_row2" href="./files/HolidayLetter.pdf">HolidayLetter.pdf</a>
18:39:49 <jamesn>     <span role="button" tabindex="0" id="del_row2" aria-label="Delete" aria-labelledby="del_row2 file_row2"></span>
18:39:49 <jamesn>   </li>
18:39:50 <harris> Bryan: if you follow the logic that they should all be included, then you'll get repetitive text. Your example isn't going to work (the delete button example #2)
18:39:50 <jamesn> </ul>
18:41:10 <harris> Bryan: I need someone to reply to my email with what is expected
18:41:29 <harris> jamesn: can people take a task to reply to the email? Adding a brief "why" would be useful as well.
18:41:40 <jamesn> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0052.html
18:42:55 <harris> zakim, next item
18:42:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Follow-up: tree inclusion of focusable elements from #1100<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:44:18 <pkra> have to drop off early -bye, everyone.
18:45:09 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
18:45:40 <harris> jcraig: I actually thought that this was going to be a non-issue. But the issue is that we recently started implementing a webkit change based on some spec language change that was discussed with the group.  The change is that we are going to include things in the accessibility tree at all times if they are focusable, rather than just when they are focused.
18:46:23 <harris> jcraig: So we started implementing this in webkit which broke a bunch of layout tests which was expected. So the engineer asked me to go back and confirm this change.
18:46:42 <harris> jcraig: This is why I created this ticket
18:48:02 <harris> jcraig: in the long term, inert is the right path forward
18:48:17 <jamesn> q+ to ask about aria-modal support
18:48:17 <harris> jcraig: webkit hasn't implemented inert yet
18:48:36 <harris> jcraig: bryan objected last week to this change because it was going to cause some points of confusion for users
18:50:56 <harris> Bryan: my colleagues were saying that a lot of the implementations that exist in the wild, especially modal dialogs, rely on the ability to hide background content so the users perception doesn't get distracted by the background content. The solution is to add aria-hidden to the background content and this is going to break that.
18:51:56 <harris> jcraig: the plus side to this change is that, right now there are some implementations of those modals that are broken. This would circumvent that problem. But as Bryan said this could cause problems/confusion
18:53:18 <harris> Bryan: on talkback if you swipe forward you couldn't interact with any of the background content but if you swiped backwards you could. So the user could tab all they want on the stuff that was slightly visible. But the AT user could actually interact with the background form fields and got stuck there
18:54:47 <jamesn> ack me
18:54:47 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask about aria-modal support
18:54:50 <harris> jcraig: I see 2 potential paths forward: One would be to just wait for consistent implementation of inert (and backing out this change). The other would be to potentially make an exception to this rule where it is not just anything focusable but is instead anything focusable when there is no modal state on the page.
18:55:45 <siri> +q
18:56:07 <harris> q- siri
18:57:41 <harris> Bryan: I do think that inert should be its own solution. I think that is a good way forward. I also see a value in differentiating between aria-modal and not aria-modal
18:58:53 <harris> Bryan: we do need some sort of differentiation between modal and non-modal
18:59:30 <harris> jcraig: one example that came up was a close button (for a dialog) being outside of the actual modal
19:01:03 <harris> jcraig: at least one of the windows platforms have a way to put an element in the tree but mark it as hidden. In case the AT needed to get to it for whatever reason. We've never had that in the iOS platforms.
19:01:31 <joanie> That's possible in ATK/AT-SPI2, but Orca treats things which claim to be "hidden" as not there.
19:01:52 <harris> carmacleod: I'd go with whatever the user agents want
19:02:05 <Matt_King> Matt_King has left #aria
19:03:10 <harris> zakim, who is on the call?
19:03:10 <Zakim> Present: pkra, harris, Joanmarie_Diggs, carmacleod, StefanS, MarkMccarthy
19:05:03 <harris> zakim, bye
19:05:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been pkra, harris, Joanmarie_Diggs, carmacleod, StefanS, MarkMccarthy
19:05:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:05:11 <harris> rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-aria-minutes.html harris
19:05:16 <harris> rrsagent, stop