IRC log of aria on 2021-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:27:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:27:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-aria-irc
17:27:58 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:27:59 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:28:08 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:28:14 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
17:28:58 [jamesn]
agendabot, agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0044.html
17:28:58 [agendabot]
jamesn, sorry, I don't understand "agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0044.html". Try "agendabot, help".
17:29:11 [jamesn]
agendabot, help
17:29:11 [agendabot]
jamesn, I am an instance of AgendaBot 0.3. For detailed help, type "help COMMAND", where COMMAND is one of invite, agenda, find, suggest, accept, this is, forget, status, reload or bye. Or go to https://www.w3.org/Tools/AgendaBot/manual.html
17:29:46 [jamesn]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Jan/0044.html
17:29:46 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:29:46 [agendabot]
agenda+ New Issue Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-07+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues>
17:29:46 [agendabot]
agenda+ New PR Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-07+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues>
17:29:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=Issues>
17:29:50 [agendabot]
agenda+ ACCNAME Suggested simplification<https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/96>
17:29:53 [agendabot]
agenda+ Listbox and tree: clarify requirements for selected and checked<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1340>
17:29:56 [agendabot]
agenda+ Updated aria-setsize and aria-posinset to clarify usage for authors<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332>
17:29:59 [agendabot]
agenda+ 1.3 triage<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc>
17:32:20 [jamesn]
regrets+ PeterKrautzberger JoanmarieDiggs MelanieSumner ScottOHara
17:32:30 [jamesn]
present+
17:59:31 [Jemma]
I am joinng now
18:00:12 [StefanS]
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18:00:15 [MichaelC]
present+
18:00:34 [jcraig]
present+
18:00:35 [MarkMccarthy]
MarkMccarthy has joined #aria
18:00:37 [StefanS]
present+
18:00:38 [MarkMccarthy]
present+
18:00:42 [MarkMccarthy]
scribe: MarkMccarthy
18:00:43 [Jemma]
present+
18:01:52 [CurtBellew]
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18:02:20 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, next item
18:02:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- New Issue Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-07+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fc
18:02:23 [Zakim]
... ore-aam&type=Issues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:41 [carmacleod]
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18:02:48 [carmacleod]
present+
18:02:50 [MarkMccarthy]
https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-07+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues
18:02:56 [Matt_King]
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18:03:09 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: 5 new issues, skipping the first (#96) as its on agenda today
18:03:25 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: 1382, 1.2 roadmap - not sure how to answer this on github but I'll take care of it
18:03:30 [Matt_King]
present+
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18:03:48 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: 1381, followup on 1100. jcraig
18:04:05 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381
18:04:05 [MarkMccarthy]
s/1100. jcraig / 1100. jcraig, is this a 1.3 or 1.4 issue?
18:04:42 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: it could be 1.3, but ir eally needs input from joanie and aaron, maybe carmacleod. basically i took this up, just haven't filed it yet
18:04:48 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: might be a nonissue, but not a 1.2 thing
18:05:24 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: either way, this isn't pressing
18:05:45 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: I assigned it to joanie
18:06:03 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: 87 is editorial, 1.3
18:06:18 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: 1380, we talked about it last week. adding 1.3 milestone, would be good to get it done
18:06:28 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, next item
18:06:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- New PR Triage<https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2021-01-07+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aa
18:06:31 [Zakim]
... m&type=Issues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:47 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: only one new PR, just editorial. no need for reviews
18:06:49 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, next item
18:06:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, MarkMccarthy
18:06:53 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, close this item
18:06:53 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
18:06:54 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:06:54 [Zakim]
3. Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=Issues>
18:06:54 [Zakim]
... [from agendabot]
18:06:57 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, take up item 3
18:06:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Meaty topic for next week<https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+label%3Adeep-dive&type=I
18:06:59 [Zakim]
... ssues> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:07:22 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: we have a bunch of things for the next deep dive - any proposals or anything?
18:07:32 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: we talked about user actions for the web today, so i'll remove that one
18:08:20 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: no immediate preference on which topic to go over
18:08:59 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: i thought on the accname one, we agreed that the intent of the spec was clear and bryan was going to propose modifications to make at least that example work
18:09:11 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: there's something on the agenda today for that...
18:09:45 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: at any rate, the issue of self referencing labels, the algoritm, and spec example are all not exactly agreeing. it probably isn't a good candidate for a deep dive just yet
18:10:02 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: i don't think there's anything to specifically discuss with that...
18:11:09 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: so maybe no deep dive next week, jamesn!
18:11:17 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: sorted!
18:11:21 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, next item
18:11:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- ACCNAME Suggested simplification<https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/96> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:11:52 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: we had this isue with accname, aaron proposed a simplification - linked above - to reorder accname slightly
18:12:31 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: 2c basically says if 2e applies, do that, otherwise go back to 2c and 2d
18:13:04 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: so, if 2e comes first, then that order makes a bit more sense. it seems like that what's chrome does anyway. so it just makes it easier to read
18:13:41 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: one question - i see references to the steps, people refer to the number and letter in issues/blog posts/etc.
18:14:16 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: because they're numbered and letter, rather than named based on what it does, when it's reordered I wonder if it'll cause confusion. not a reason not to do it, but it makes me wonder if it's truly that simple
18:14:48 [MarkMccarthy]
bryan: it's kind of unavoidable though, like if other things need to be added, the order is going to change no matter what
18:15:12 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: maybe we do away with numbering in the future, to avoid the issue altogether
18:15:16 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: +`1
18:15:24 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: that's what I was thinking
18:15:33 [MarkMccarthy]
s/+`1/+1
18:15:42 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: might be better to put that in a separate issue though
18:15:55 [MarkMccarthy]
Jemma: aaron talked about recursion for this issue too right?
18:16:12 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: i didn't rewrite everything, but i did call it descendent recursion, since that's what was intended
18:16:23 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: so we have a short unique name for each step?
18:16:25 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: makes sense
18:16:26 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: yes
18:16:58 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: i had been working on a better description of how to do description calc in a table format, people liked that. so maybe that's a good method too
18:17:05 [MarkMccarthy]
bryan: that'd be awesome!
18:17:16 [Jemma]
aaronlev: short unique name is recommended. it would be more appropriate to use the word "description calculation or decendants recursion"
18:17:23 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: an example would be great!
18:17:26 [Jemma]
rather than " recursion"
18:17:54 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: makes it easier to sort through so much information
18:18:09 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: so if you have something, even incomplete, add it to an issue so bryan or whoever wants to can look at it
18:18:22 [MarkMccarthy]
bryan: that would certainly be make things a lot easier
18:18:46 [MarkMccarthy]
Jemma: makes me wonder if the table format would be 1:1 mapping, since it's not a flowchart? but i'm curious
18:18:57 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: i'll send an example, i promise it's easier than a flowchart!
18:19:25 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: back on the 2c/2d etc. PR, watch out for the IDs and fragment identifiers
18:19:45 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: someone else can probably write this PR, so don't worry too much about it aaronlev
18:20:07 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: i'll assign this to me. any objections any of this?
18:20:15 [MarkMccarthy]
bryan: sounds great, i'm all for simplification.
18:20:20 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, next item
18:20:20 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Listbox and tree: clarify requirements for selected and checked<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1340> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:20:31 [Jemma]
s/about recursion/about recursion concept
18:21:00 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: so this is all ready to go in but I didn't yet because I wanted aaron to look at it. i'd love James Teh and Matt_King to add some comments to aaron's comment
18:21:21 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: i thought I already did, but --
18:22:10 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: this is a response to your response, Matt_King. so basically it's not about the initial serialization, but we have to recalculate the tree if user actions intervene
18:22:35 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: what i want - once it's made a decision to use the selection follows focus rule, it can stick that rule on that tree/list and not have to recompute the rule
18:22:39 [MarkMccarthy]
s/recalculate/recompute
18:23:09 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: it'd only make a rule if theres at least one item in there
18:23:42 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: if there's one item and the author inends to use checked but it's not declared, it won't work right until it's added
18:23:46 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: essentially yes
18:24:24 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: basically i just don't think it should be going back and forth and have to recompute etc.
18:24:40 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: makes sense.
18:25:09 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: potentially we should get new reviewers/re-reviewers, might be helpful. jcraig, your thoughts?
18:25:43 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: i can re-review if need be
18:25:57 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: doesn't have to be now, but if this is made explicit in spec, we would still need your review
18:26:16 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: so if/when there's a new change, I'll definitely take another look
18:26:26 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: aaronlev, okay to merge now and a new issue for future clarification?
18:26:31 [MarkMccarthy]
aaronlev: definitely! no worries
18:26:38 [MarkMccarthy]
jcraig: that'll make the second PR easier to review too
18:26:57 [MarkMccarthy]
Matt_King: so we'll need an issue documenting when that new PR is there
18:27:09 [Jemma]
zakim, next item
18:27:09 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Updated aria-setsize and aria-posinset to clarify usage for authors<https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:12 [MarkMccarthy]
scribe: Jemma
18:27:49 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1332#discussion_r553384105
18:29:09 [Jemma]
we will wait for Melsumner's response.
18:29:17 [Jemma]
zakim, next item
18:29:17 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- 1.3 triage<https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc> -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:30:22 [Jemma]
car: #350
18:31:01 [Jemma]
.. there was inconsistency and I fixed it. it would be great someone, JamesC, can review.
18:31:25 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc
18:32:31 [Jemma]
#996, we need to editorial work for this, "implicit value"
18:33:13 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/975
18:33:17 [Jemma]
s/#996/#966
18:34:02 [Jemma]
975 is related to https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/350
18:34:48 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/953#issuecomment-487384288
18:35:55 [Jemma]
james: 953 can moved to aria 1.3
18:36:05 [Jemma]
car and matt agree
18:37:00 [Jemma]
#979
18:37:23 [Jemma]
jamesn: no objection moving #979 to 1.4
18:37:44 [Jemma]
#982 is editorial
18:38:17 [Jemma]
#989
18:38:17 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989
18:39:11 [Jemma]
..add it to agenda item so that we can learn more about it.
18:40:06 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/991
18:40:16 [Jemma]
this can be deep dive topic.
18:40:49 [Jemma]
we can also invite other visualization experts, not only leonie
18:40:52 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, who is here?
18:40:52 [Zakim]
Present: jamesn, MichaelC, jcraig, StefanS, MarkMccarthy, Jemma, carmacleod, Matt_King
18:40:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Matt_King, carmacleod, CurtBellew, MarkMccarthy, StefanS, RRSAgent, Zakim, jamesn, tzviya, MichaelC, bigbluehat, slightlyoff, ZoeBijl, JonathanNeal, Jemma, jcraig,
18:40:55 [Zakim]
... spectranaut, zcorpan_, timeless, Josh_Soref, agendabot, github-bot, joanie
18:41:04 [MarkMccarthy]
present+ BryanGaraventa AaronLeventhal
18:41:21 [Jemma]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-aria-minutes.html Jemma
18:41:29 [MarkMccarthy]
present+ IsabelHoldsworth
18:41:32 [MarkMccarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:41:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-aria-minutes.html MarkMccarthy
18:50:42 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381
18:50:49 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1381 can be a good deep dive topic.
18:51:10 [Jemma]
(group discussed about this issue casually)
18:51:37 [Jemma]
rrsagent, make mintutes
18:51:37 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintutes', Jemma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:51:55 [Jemma]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-aria-minutes.html Jemma
19:02:24 [jamesn]
zakim, part
19:02:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, MichaelC, jcraig, StefanS, MarkMccarthy, Jemma, carmacleod, Matt_King, BryanGaraventa, AaronLeventhal, IsabelHoldsworth
19:02:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
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