16:02:28 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:02:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/17-tt-irc 16:02:31 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:02:32 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:02:59 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/163 16:03:18 scribe: nigel 16:03:25 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html 16:03:59 Present: Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Nigel 16:04:03 Chair: Gary, Nigel 16:04:45 Topic: This meeting 16:04:53 atai has joined #tt 16:05:12 Nigel: Agenda today: reminder to rejoin the group, MPEG Liaison, Review and look-ahead, Presentation customisation requirements 16:05:16 .. AOB? 16:05:28 Present+ Pierre 16:06:06 cyril has joined #tt 16:06:11 atsushi: Wondering whether to remove the old iCalendar files, and to inform everyone that the URL of spec-timeline has been changed. 16:06:15 present+ 16:06:38 Pierre: Need to drop off at half past 16:06:53 Topic: Recharter: requirement to rejoin group 16:07:15 Nigel: After rechartering, which we just did to adopt Patent Policy 2020, if you haven't rejoined the group, please do. 16:07:25 -> https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/34314/join Link to rejoin the group 16:07:36 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/12/timed-text-wg-charter.html New Charter 16:09:15 Pierre: Only your AC rep can do it for you. Your AC rep has to nominate your organisation to join, then you can nominate people to join the group. 16:09:22 .. It's not as simple as just clicking that link. 16:09:40 Nigel: I get thrown by this every time it happens. I wish it was simpler and clearer about what is going on! 16:10:09 .. I raised #168 for updating the Charter link on the home page. I think that's done now. 16:10:13 Atsushi: I believe so. 16:10:29 Topic: MPEG Liaison #167 16:10:40 Nigel: Just to let you know I sent this last night and closed the issue. 16:10:55 .. It's archived in member-tt, and we got an acknowledgement back that it has been received. 16:11:23 .. Thanks for the reviews. I hope it's useful. 16:11:33 Cyril: Yes, I think it is useful. 16:12:20 Topic: Review of 2020, and look-ahead to 2021 16:13:20 mike has joined #tt 16:13:32 present +mike 16:25:18 Nigel: [goes through slide deck quickly] 16:25:32 .. -> changethislinklater Pointer to slides 16:25:45 .. And end up with what are your priorities for 2021? 16:27:26 .. Not expecting an answer now, but I'd like everyone to reflect on what they can bring and what we can deliver next year. 16:27:39 .. It's been a tough year for everyone in 2020, we should be pleased by what we have delivered. 16:28:00 Pierre: The holy grail is alignment with CSS. That's a real pain point, and it's entirely within W3C members' ability to do. 16:28:24 .. Especially in the case of some of the features that the broader web community (fillLineGap!) where users are looking for 16:28:30 .. that functionality for general use, not only subtitles. 16:28:41 .. If we manage to achieve that it would be great for the web community in general. 16:28:58 .. The other one that is a lot more complicated, and maybe not for W3C, is more interop testing of subtitle implementations. 16:29:15 .. We've created a lot of tests, but don't have a lot of interop testing, and many implementers are not W3C members. 16:29:33 .. It's something for the industry as a whole. Certainly solving the CSS issue would be my main goal. 16:30:01 Andreas: On this point, do you think it would be beneficial to link interop testing, e.g. in HbbTV or ATSC, to W3C or is that out of scope 16:30:03 .. for our group? 16:30:13 Pierre: I'm not sure. I think it's valuable but I'm not sure W3C is the right place. 16:31:12 Nigel: I think it's worth bringing up, thinking especially about WPT and the way the same orgs do that and W3C specs. 16:31:50 Mike: Worth bringing in DASH-IF and dash.js? It's an open platform and probably has, via imsc.js, the best conformance with IMSC as far as I know. 16:31:59 .. They also have a content validator, that could be integrated. 16:32:06 .. It's DASH-centric, but the world's going there anyway. 16:33:49 Nigel: I'd be interested in completing the AD work, but also 16:34:12 .. seeing if others want to standardise the format of data for passing customisation information into players. 16:34:16 Pierre: Sounds like a great topic to me. 16:34:44 Gary: I'd like to finally get back on the horse with WebVTT. 16:34:55 .. I know for me it's a bit harder because I'm basically the only person working on it. 16:35:11 .. Without having other people working on it too it's harder to remember and justify looking at things. 16:35:29 .. As for working with CSS WG, that would be good. We tried to meet them at TPAC but didn't end up doing it so it 16:35:41 .. would be nice to schedule some time with them. We have things that it would be worth working on with them. 16:35:50 .. The player options for caption styling is also something interesting. 16:36:10 Mike: By caption styling you mean like user preferences? 16:36:13 Gary: Yes 16:36:33 Mike: I don't know if you shared CEB35 with others but there's a CE document we did that maps the common user preferences 16:36:36 .. onto 708 and IMSC1. 16:37:04 Nigel: I didn't, I've been trying to implement it for IMSC 1 and would like to share as an end of year demo if that's okay? 16:37:31 Topic: Presentation customisation requirements 16:37:52 Nigel: Following on from that, I've been trying to implement some of the stuff in CEB35 as modifications to imsc.js. 16:42:11 .. [shares prototype renderer with sliders for user preferences] 16:42:17 Cyril: Why is this relevant to IMSC? 16:42:41 Nigel: The options object passed to the player is something that captures the user preferences, and could be a candidate for standardisation. 16:42:57 .. You'd want different players to behave in interoperable ways given the same user preferences. 16:43:15 q+ 16:43:31 Cyril: I like the idea. An aspect that could be interesting is the challenge of getting the content authored in a way that 16:43:58 .. works with the preferences. Brainstorming, I'm wondering if we could use this options parameter could be included in delivery requirements 16:44:08 .. saying "must look okay when options.value changes from x to y" 16:44:31 Nigel: Good point, we had an exact example of that. 16:46:29 Mike: It's tricky to scale the region because you have to have heuristics. If you keep text in the same region 16:46:33 .. you should get consistent results. 16:46:41 Cyril: Unfortunately people do different things! 16:47:06 Mike: I've seen different behaviours. There may be some edge cases. Keeping the regions together may need explanation. 16:47:16 .. This is pretty cool - having some standard way to do this would be interesting. 16:47:28 .. Some people don't see colours well or have both hearing and visual impairments. 16:47:47 .. It's more of an accessibility requirement at least in the US. 16:48:03 .. When you scale you assume you want it to go towards the edge of the display region. That's not unreasonable, 16:48:49 .. but you've assumed a lot of interesting behaviour that varies from implementation. 16:49:04 Nigel: Not so much. The region isn't moving, but displayAlign and textAlign are staying the same. 16:49:27 Andreas: On the one side you have a UI that allows users to customise presentation. This is already done, as part of hardware or OS 16:49:43 .. like iOS or Android, that have the ability to change the subtitle presentation where they can detect it. 16:49:57 .. Then you have the format like IMSC that represents the author's intent, and in between a lot of things are happening. 16:50:15 .. As Cyril noted, when user preferences are applied it's not IMSC or the format any more, it's user preferences and the language 16:50:36 .. like HTML and CSS. This is already happening, for example in Germany using HbbTV there is a customisation feature where the input 16:50:47 .. format is a subset of IMSC, and it is well defined what you can do so it all works fine. 16:51:05 .. There needs to be some work done so the format and the UI work together to avoid destroying the authors intent. 16:51:13 .. You may need to author in a way that allows the preferences to be applied. 16:51:31 .. And it needs to be format agnostic. In iOS for example it needs to work on WebVTT, SRT and variations of TTML. 16:51:54 Mike: What's your intent for this activity? 16:56:51 Nigel: I'm using it as a test-bed at the moment, on the BBC fork. imsc.js is a reference player so if there's a standardised way to 16:57:10 .. pass user preferences in, then it would be a good place to put it. 16:57:24 Mike: Colour customisation is important too. 16:57:38 Nigel: Thinking about a colour map to allow users to define their own palette. 16:58:00 Andreas: Some user preferences allow users to override settings, but at their own risk. 16:58:21 .. Even then you need to make sure that background and foreground colour are applied in a set, because if you change your foreground 16:58:32 .. colour preference and then there's a white background then you would see nothing. 16:59:07 Mike: Preferences are set by the viewer, so they can fix it. 16:59:21 Nigel: I tend to prefer giving tools to avoid users getting into that situation. 16:59:33 Andreas: Others might be interested too, APA WG and some manufacturers. 16:59:44 Mike: In the US this is driven by FCC in a regulatory manner. 17:00:10 .. At least in the US there is specific behaviour that is expected. We need to be conscious about how we do it as engineers, 17:00:17 .. and keep in mind regulatory requirements. 17:00:47 Cyril: It's a BBC fork? I looked at GitHub, is it there? 17:01:12 -> https://github.com/bbc/imscJS BBC fork of imsc.JS 17:01:27 Mike: I'd to share this with some colleagues too 17:01:37 Nigel: I'd be happy to talk with them if they're happy to do that. 17:02:16 Cyril: I'm interested in this activity - it would be great to have a video of this demo, if you can share that? 17:02:21 Nigel: Interesting thought! 17:02:26 Topic: AOB 17:02:41 Nigel: You wanted to know about removing the old ics files? 17:02:54 Atsushi: Yes just housekeeping. We have both composited and individual meeting files. 17:03:12 .. There are around 20 files in the directory. We could remove all the 2020 calendar invites. Is that fine for all? 17:03:26 Nigel: Makes sense to me. No need to keep them for posterity. 17:03:37 Atsushi: In any case they'll be there in an old commit. 17:03:41 Nigel: Exactly. 17:03:47 .. I think just do it! 17:03:50 Atsushi: Yes 17:04:12 .. Another point is just info to share. To include the spec timeline in the onboarding email new members receive when they join TTWG, 17:04:33 .. there's a customisation template. Nigel included a link to spec-timeline in that but we may forget to update the link year by year so now 17:04:53 https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/wip/TTWG-spec-timeline.html 17:04:55 .. we have removed the 2019 year from the URL and used a non-dated link, so please be careful to check if you have it. 17:05:00 .. It is ^^ now 17:05:14 Nigel: Good stuff, thank you! 17:05:18 Topic: Meeting close 17:06:05 Nigel: Thanks everyone, wishing you all a good break and new year if you're celebrating it. Our next meeting will be on 7th January. 17:07:23 .. I'm wondering about user presentation customisation as a potential topic for a future f2f by the way. 17:08:37 group: [general mutual good wishes for the holiday period and the new year] 17:08:43 Nigel: [adjourns meeting] 17:08:47 rrsagent, make minutes v2 17:08:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/17-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:10:49 Present- cyril, mike 17:10:53 Present+ Cyril, Mike 17:17:27 s|changethislinklater|https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/wip/ttwg-in-2020.pdf 17:18:51 s/prototype renderer/prototype renderer based on imsc.js 17:19:29 s/we had an exact example of that./we had an exact example of that with different lines being delivered in different regions, which we had to post-fix. 17:21:19 s/if they're happy to do that./if they're happy to do that. This work is on a branch in the BBC fork at the moment. 17:21:52 rrsagent, make minutes v2 17:21:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/17-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:24:05 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:24:09 zakim, end meeting 17:24:09 As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Nigel, Pierre, cyril, Mike 17:24:11 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 17:24:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/17-tt-minutes.html Zakim 17:24:14 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:24:18 Zakim has left #tt 17:32:53 rrsagent, excuse us 17:32:53 I see no action items