16:01:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
16:01:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-irc
16:01:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:01:14 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
16:05:09 <nigel> Present: Nigel, Pierre, Andreas, Gary, Cyril
16:05:15 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:05:18 <nigel> Chair: Gary, Nigel
16:05:31 <atsushi> (still in previous meeting, sorry)
16:05:37 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/11/26-tt-minutes.html
16:06:28 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/161
16:06:49 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
16:06:57 <nigel> Topic: This meeting
16:07:29 <nigel> Nigel: today, we have IMSC Tests pull requests to iterate through and form a plan of action
16:07:39 <nigel> .. the MPEG liaison response draft
16:07:52 <nigel> .. confirmation of the resolution to adopt patent policy 2020
16:08:01 <nigel> .. and an AOB on telecon frequency
16:08:07 <nigel> .. Any other business?
16:08:47 <nigel> group: [no other business]
16:08:54 <nigel> Topic: IMSC Tests open pull requests
16:09:02 <nigel> Nigel: 4 open PRs, some quite old.
16:09:17 <nigel> .. Thanks Pierre for raising this last week. We need a plan of action to resolve them.
16:09:44 <nigel> .. Should we iterate through them?
16:10:05 <mike> mike has joined #tt
16:10:05 <nigel> Pierre: #97 is ready to go I think. I asked Cyril to review but others can too.
16:10:17 <nigel> Present+ Mike
16:10:20 <mike> present +mike
16:10:24 <nigel> Cyril: Yes I will review.
16:10:36 <atai> atai has joined #tt
16:10:50 <nigel> Pierre: The other ones have outstanding comments to address
16:11:03 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks for reminding us about these - some have been open for a long time.
16:11:22 <nigel> .. I will try to get round to looking at them, and also welcome everyone else to as well.
16:11:42 <nigel> .. Any points to discuss?
16:11:46 <nigel> Pierre: No.
16:12:07 <nigel> .. just to note that Glenn mentioned they don't look like CR exit criteria tests (see #96) and I
16:12:21 <nigel> .. pointed out that they aren't intended for that. He seems to have accepted that.
16:12:33 <nigel> Nigel: Yes, I noticed that too, I think we can continue.
16:12:46 <nigel> .. It's the Implementation Report that lists the relevant CR Exit Criteria tests.
16:13:28 <nigel> Cyril: On the subject of testing, I was wondering if Andreas's examples for ttml2#1211 could be added to a test suite?
16:14:11 <nigel> Andreas: Yes, I'm fine with that. I think the main case why I contributed is we were missing some examples
16:14:21 <nigel> .. where weak, neutral, ltr and rtl characters are mixed.
16:14:32 <nigel> .. Of course yes I'm fine with it.
16:14:45 <nigel> Nigel: And Cyril, you noticed you didn't agree with one of the renderings?
16:14:58 <nigel> Cyril: Yes, but I just responded, I made a mistake, I think they're fine.
16:15:09 <nigel> .. They're very interesting tests and it would be a pity not to have them in the test suite.
16:15:18 <nigel> Nigel: Who can take the action?
16:15:21 <nigel> Cyril: I can.
16:15:25 <nigel> Nigel: Great, thank you.
16:15:39 <nigel> Topic: MPEG Liaison #167
16:19:01 <atsushi> present+ Atsushi
16:24:22 <nigel> Nigel: [reviews document shared via member-tt reflector link]
16:24:33 <nigel> group: [discusses content of draft outgoing liaison text]
16:25:15 <nigel> .. [discussion of clipping behaviour defined by ISOBMFF as being related to the document processing context in TTML1/2]
16:25:44 <nigel> Mike: More clarity on the clipping behaviour would be helpful.
16:28:01 <nigel> Cyril: Root temporal extent and presentation processing context
16:28:06 <nigel> Nigel: Any other points to be made?
16:31:56 <nigel> group: [discusses the time coordinate Ti and their timeline]
16:32:13 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks, I wanted there to be some draft text captured - I will leave this up and not send it without further review.
16:33:06 <nigel> Topic: Patent Policy 2020
16:33:34 <nigel> Nigel: The decision review period for this ends now, effectively, and I have seen no objections to our resolution to adopt.
16:33:43 <nigel> Gary: I have not either.
16:33:56 <nigel> Cyril: I checked with our legal team and they're fine with it.
16:34:36 <nigel> Nigel: In that case we can go ahead. Not sure the next step - there's a WBS I think?
16:34:53 <nigel> Atsushi: [checks]
16:35:23 <nigel> Nigel: I've found the WBS poll
16:36:42 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:36:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:37:08 <nigel> .. I've submitted the form.
16:37:47 <nigel> Gary: One thing to remember is that some people will have to rejoin the group after re-chartering.
16:37:59 <nigel> Atsushi: This will go through AC review and then recharter, then everyone will need to rejoin.
16:38:07 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks for the clarification.
16:38:14 <nigel> Atsushi: It will be 8th January or later.
16:38:21 <nigel> Gary: Hopefully there will be a heads-up when it happens.
16:38:35 <nigel> Atsushi: An automatic notification will go through and I will remind in meetings and by email.
16:38:39 <nigel> Gary: Thanks.
16:38:48 <nigel> Nigel: Thank you everyone.
16:38:59 <nigel> Topic: AOB: frequency of TTWG teleconferences
16:39:24 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks to Pierre for raising this. I'd like to say my thoughts are not fully formed on this yet, and I'm happy to discuss.
16:39:39 <nigel> .. The main point I would make is we have a lot of deliverables slated, and progress has been slow on most of them.
16:39:52 <nigel> .. Work drives the need for discussion!
16:40:26 <nigel> Pierre: As per my email, I think teleconferences are really useful for controversial or complex issues or as a forcing function.
16:40:36 <nigel> .. Because of the workload today I don't see the need for it every week.
16:40:49 <nigel> .. We should try to do more work asynchronously using electronic tools.
16:40:52 <atai> q+
16:40:55 <nigel> ack at
16:41:19 <nigel> Andreas: I mentioned on the mailing list, our workflow could evolve a bit.
16:41:31 <nigel> .. This combination of mailing list and telephone conferences has been established many years ago.
16:41:51 <nigel> .. We have moved a bit. Especially more chat tools with threading and real time or asynchronous communication offer a great
16:42:09 <nigel> .. way to collaborate efficiently. If we add this to our tools or standards work it could possibly reduce the
16:42:14 <nigel> .. frequency of telephone conferences.
16:42:27 <nigel> Gary: There is a W3C Slack channel
16:42:34 <nigel> Pierre: Also email and GitHub too
16:42:38 <atai> q+
16:42:42 <nigel> ack at
16:42:58 <nigel> Andreas: I think the threads on GitHub can explode - I'm not sure if they are the right place.
16:43:10 <nigel> .. I know GitHub is looking to establish a different kind of communication.
16:43:17 <nigel> .. The writing mode discussion was a good example.
16:43:40 <nigel> .. Email is also possibly not ideal, because the whole list gets flooded with issues that are concerning only for a few people.
16:43:55 <nigel> .. I could imagine making Slack more efficient as a tool for communication on certain topics.
16:44:07 <nigel> .. The Slack channel itself won't help, we need to discuss how to use it.
16:44:11 <nigel> q+
16:44:39 <nigel> Nigel: I'm concerned about getting the right balance on is the public nature of the decisions.
16:45:00 <nigel> .. Sometimes the record of how we reached a decision is helpful in retrospect, and if we move discussion off easily searched
16:45:13 <nigel> .. or publicly accessible media then we may lose that benefit.
16:45:17 <nigel> ack n
16:46:00 <nigel> Nigel: But anything that encourages more frequent/lower latency discussion is a good thing.
16:46:17 <nigel> Cyril: I would agree to the request to meet less often, in general. But in the past months for example, I don't think we had so
16:46:31 <nigel> .. many cases where we could skip the meeting. We skipped some meetings and had one or two short meetings.
16:46:45 <nigel> .. Maybe simply encouraging the chairs to skip a meeting when the agenda is too light?
16:46:59 <nigel> .. Move more towards a meeting on a needs basis rather than a fixed cadence could help.
16:47:21 <nigel> Pierre: The downside, Cyril, is that you still need to reserve that 1 hour every week at a critical time for international meetings.
16:47:39 <nigel> .. There aren't many timeslots that work globally so there's an opportunity cost,
16:47:49 <nigel> .. We can all talk easily but the question is do we really need to?
16:48:05 <nigel> Cyril: I was also wondering about the impact on our decision policy if we move to a monthly cadence.
16:48:18 <atai> q+
16:48:20 <nigel> .. It means we could take a decision asynchronously and never discuss it. Maybe that's okay.
16:48:38 <nigel> Andreas: This is exactly what the meetings are for, to confirm decisions.
16:48:46 <nigel> .. To be clear about agreement, the teleconferences are good.
16:49:05 <nigel> .. They need to be prepared in a way that the agreement is clear before or any controversy has been worked out beforehand.
16:49:32 <atsushi> fyi. decision policy from charter
16:49:32 <atsushi> > If no objections are raised on the mailing list by the end of the response period, the resolution will be considered to have consensus as a resolution of the Working Group.
16:49:34 <nigel> Gary: Also we can always schedule an off-cadence meeting to discuss if something like Slack or another chat medium ends up not being good enough.
16:49:46 <nigel> Mike: What's the meeting notice requirement for WGs?
16:49:59 <nigel> Nigel: I'm not sure but I think it primarily applies to face to face meetings.
16:50:17 <nigel> Mike: They likely do say something about WG calls, anyway it should be factored in.
16:50:45 <nigel> Atsushi: Calls need to be announced 2 days before, and f2f 4 or 8 weeks before, I think. (searching for the docs now)
16:50:58 <nigel> Nigel: Could be in our Charter, I haven't checked.
16:51:49 <nigel> Atsushi: The Process may enforce something.
16:51:56 <nigel> Nigel: The Charter does not say anything about it.
16:52:34 <nigel> Nigel: I'm definitely open to a change. My concerns are:
16:52:55 <nigel> .. 1. visibility of discussions and accessibility to those who do not regularly participate
16:53:08 <nigel> .. 2. potential further loss of momentum
16:53:24 <atsushi> found! https://www.w3.org/2020/Process-20200915/#GeneralMeetings
16:54:25 <nigel> .. 3. (ought not to be a concern, but) possibly poorer quality decision making if people don't think things through except by talking about them
16:54:53 <nigel> Gary: The document Atsushi found is a "should": announcement of meeting 1 week ahead and agenda >= 24 hours ahead.
16:55:20 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/Process-20200915/#GeneralMeetings Meeting requirements in the Process
16:55:48 <nigel> Gary: It's possible that momentum could be increased by having availability on asynchronous media instead of having to wait until the next call.
16:55:51 <atai> +1
16:55:51 <nigel> Nigel: Yes, good point.
16:56:13 <nigel> Gary: Maybe the quick thing here is that we should consider creating a TTWG chat and start using it.
16:56:29 <nigel> .. If we are using that and don't feel the need for meetings then we can reduce the frequency.
16:56:38 <nigel> Nigel: Sounds like a good way forward to me.
16:56:53 <nigel> .. Dip our toe in the water and see if we enjoy it.
16:57:11 <nigel> Cyril: So let's say experiment for 2 months with discussing in the chat and cancelling meetings if not needed,
16:57:22 <nigel> .. and if that works then reduce the cadence officially.
16:57:44 <nigel> Gary: Seems reasonable to me, but this month might be weird - maybe extend through to the end of February.
16:58:03 <atsushi> > Meeting Schedule     Teleconferences: Usually once per week. (in charter)
16:58:04 <nigel> Pierre: My suggestion would be to remove the meeting cadence to 2 weeks, and in between use those electronic means.
16:58:22 <nigel> Andreas: I agree with Pierre, try biweekly meetings and putting extra ones in if needed.
16:58:49 <atsushi> +1 charter just says 'usually'
16:59:36 <nigel> Nigel: How about I raise the github issues for meetings through to the end of February and mark those that are slated for potential cancellation,
16:59:39 <nigel> .. every 2 weeks?
16:59:42 <nigel> Andreas: Sounds good to me
17:00:06 <nigel> Nigel: And we're talking about using W3C Slack for async chat, right?
17:00:18 <nigel> Gary: That is my proposal, unless people think others are better.
17:00:19 <atsushi> https://app.slack.com/client/T010EGK9PQE/C010CACSKAL
17:00:25 <nigel> Cyril: W3C is the place, right.
17:01:53 <nigel> -> https://join.slack.com/share/zt-jtt153mc-PpPGgklDCuDTb6igRnCxzg Link to join the ttwg channel
17:02:14 <nigel> s/channel/channel (active for 7 days)
17:02:56 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time, I'm always happy to look at new ways of working.
17:03:07 <nigel> .. The main thing is to make progress on our deliverables, how we do that is up to us.
17:03:43 <nigel> .. By the way that Slack channel will not show older archived messages as it is on the free plan at the moment.
17:03:46 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
17:03:55 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time for today. [adjourns meeting]
17:03:59 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:03:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:07:26 <nigel> s|https://app.slack.com/client/T010EGK9PQE/C010CACSKAL||
17:10:38 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:10:46 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:10:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:11:12 <nigel> Present+ Mike
17:11:16 <nigel> Present- mike
17:11:24 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:11:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:11:38 <nigel> Present+ Mike
17:11:41 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:11:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:11:57 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
17:11:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Pierre, Andreas, Gary, Cyril, Mike, Atsushi
17:11:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:11:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/03-tt-minutes.html Zakim
17:12:02 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:12:06 <nigel> rrsagent, excuse us
17:12:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items