16:00:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
16:00:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/11/19-tt-irc
16:00:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:00:19 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
16:00:32 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/159
16:00:41 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/11/12-tt-minutes.html
16:01:00 <nigel> Present: Andreas, Nigel
16:01:50 <nigel> Regrets: Glenn
16:02:16 <nigel> Present+ Cyril
16:02:23 <nigel> Present+ Gary
16:02:42 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
16:03:13 <nigel> Present+ Pierre
16:03:42 <cyril> scribe: cyril
16:03:46 <cyril> Present+
16:03:51 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
16:03:54 <atai> atai has joined #tt
16:04:06 <cyril> nigel: we have regrets from Glenn
16:04:17 <cyril> ... the first topic is what his regrets apply to
16:04:31 <cyril> ... but we can use the opportunity to get the discussion going
16:04:36 <cyril> pal: yes
16:04:48 <atsushi> (will come shortly. still in previous)
16:04:53 <cyril> nigel: since sending the agenda on tuesday I modified the order to put the registry next
16:05:03 <cyril> ... we just published
16:05:25 <cyril> ... I still haven't got the MPEG liaison
16:05:43 <glenn> I'm here, IRC only.
16:06:19 <cyril> cyril: I'll send you the liaison again
16:06:21 <mike> mike has joined #tt
16:06:35 <cyril> nigel: not sure if we need more on Process 2020
16:06:47 <cyril> ... the conclusion last time was that gary would send something around
16:06:48 <glenn> Present+ Glenn
16:07:04 <cyril> gkatsev: the patent 2020 there is a time limit if we want to do the quick adoption of that
16:07:22 <cyril> nigel: and the last topic is changing the default branch name
16:07:25 <mike> present+ Mike
16:07:27 <cyril> ... from master to main
16:07:39 <cyril> nigel: any other business for the agenda
16:07:57 <cyril> nigel: seems not
16:08:11 <cyril> Topic: remove applicability of direction on p
16:08:39 <cyril> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1214
16:09:06 <cyril> nigel: we have comments from Glenn
16:09:20 <cyril> ... Pierre tried to address Andreas' comments
16:09:28 <cyril> ... Andreas approved them
16:09:43 <cyril> ... Glenn says there is some semantic inconsistency
16:09:57 <cyril> ... we need to workout what that means
16:11:13 <cyril> pal: the computed value of tts:direction on a region can come from 2 different places
16:11:18 <glenn_> glenn_ has joined #tt
16:11:29 <cyril> ... implicitly from tts:writingmode or explicitely if you specify it or initial value
16:11:39 <cyril> ... I don't see why Glenn is unhappy
16:11:48 <cyril> nigel: it's not obvious is it?
16:12:10 <cyril> nigel: we need to ask glenn
16:12:32 <nigel> Present+ Mike
16:13:37 <glenn_> mainly, i
16:14:11 <glenn_> mainly, i'm not happy with using a dull axe to cut out tts:direction semantics
16:15:01 <cyril> q+
16:15:06 <glenn_> we went to a lot of trouble to define out tts:writingMode maps to tts:direction which maps to paragraph embedding level in UAX#9; there is no need to remove those semantics
16:15:10 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:15:26 <nigel> cyril: Since last time I did some research in our catalogue.
16:15:30 <nigel> .. I found 2 things.
16:15:52 <nigel> .. 1. I found more example of tts:direction being used on p, and not only from internal Netflix tools
16:16:00 <nigel> .. but at least 2 external vendors who produce such content.
16:16:27 <atsushi> present+
16:16:31 <nigel> .. The content I found has tts:direction on p, no writingMode on region, but textAlign on p, most usually "center".
16:16:39 <nigel> .. I need to search for other cases where textAlign is not used.
16:16:59 <nigel> .. I am really worried that if we make this change to indicate that direction does not apply on p, there could be an impact on these
16:17:05 <nigel> .. Netflix external vendors.
16:17:10 <atai> q+
16:17:34 <nigel> s/The content/2. The content
16:17:40 <cyril> ack cyril
16:17:45 <cyril> scribe: cyril
16:17:53 <glenn_> I am also unhappy with (read cannot and will not accept) deprecating.
16:18:04 <cyril> atai: coming back to the rendering question
16:18:21 <cyril> ... what are the expectation of vendors when putting this value on p
16:18:31 <cyril> ... what interpretation is done by the renderers
16:18:34 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
16:18:41 <cyril> ... what should be the rendering
16:18:55 <glenn> thinks nobody is reading IRC except me
16:19:04 <cyril> ... I struggle to see how the situation could be worse if we remove applicability on p
16:19:12 <nigel> q+
16:19:15 <nigel> ack at
16:19:22 <glenn> cannot accept deprecation approach
16:19:23 <cyril> ... because it seems implementation dependent
16:19:39 <nigel> q?
16:19:50 <nigel> ack n
16:20:20 <cyril> nigel: there is a missing data
16:20:30 <cyril> ... for the content that Cyril has found, that sets direction
16:20:41 <cyril> ... presumably it is setting direction to rtl
16:21:05 <glenn> what is the missing data?
16:21:31 <glenn> you do realize that the bidi algorithm uses the character directionality?
16:21:34 <cyril> ... is there a common expecting rendering behavior that you would be expected and that would change if direction applicability is removed
16:22:12 <glenn> ah, someone is reading....
16:22:29 <glenn> sorry, i'm not on audio
16:22:34 <cyril> nigel: specifically, around what is implemented now vs any hypothetical implementation
16:23:21 <cyril> pal: a very general observation is that implementations prior to 2017 or 2018 of TTML, perhaps with the exception of ttv and ttpe, were terrible
16:23:47 <cyril> ... In my experience, produced documents that today would be deemed not conformant
16:24:11 <cyril> cyril: Netflix has received plenty of documents prior to 2017 that were fine
16:24:21 <glenn> @pal have you used all implementations? i haven't
16:25:12 <nigel> q+
16:25:14 <cyril> pal: but what does direction mean then in these documents
16:25:32 <cyril> cyril: maybe that its equivalent to writing mode
16:25:47 <nigel> q?
16:26:06 <cyril> nigel: there is a stated meaning of direction p
16:26:28 <cyril> ... I don't think anybody doubts that it sets the paragraph embedding level
16:27:11 <cyril> ... if the result of this change meant that it no longer did that, then a bunch of text already out there, if you rendered it with a now conformant implementation, would render in the incorrect order
16:27:15 <cyril> ... that wouldn't be right
16:27:17 <nigel> ack n
16:27:17 <atai> q+
16:27:20 <cyril> pal: that's not accurate
16:27:34 <nigel> q+ pal
16:27:37 <nigel> ack at
16:28:13 <cyril> atai: going back to what Cyril said, that it was clear what directionality on p, I can guess that they wanted to indicate that the content in the p had the direction indicate in the tts:direction attribute
16:28:31 <cyril> ... especially to override the left to right direction because they did not specify writing mode
16:29:20 <cyril> ... if we follow the text in TTML2 as of now, i.e. setting the embedding level, this has an effect on arabic and hebrew
16:29:34 <cyril> ... because the neutral and weak characters would use it
16:30:00 <cyril> ... the issue we are facing is how it is defined in TTML is that it separates the directionality from the inline progression direction
16:30:12 <cyril> ... CSS3 does both at the same time while TTML2 does not
16:30:12 <glenn_> glenn_ has joined #tt
16:30:20 <glenn_> q+
16:30:32 <cyril> ... the problem is that most authors would expect that it behaves like CSS
16:30:45 <cyril> ... either way there will be problems
16:30:53 <nigel> q+ to say that #1213 is the issue that implements Andreas's point
16:31:02 <nigel> ack pal
16:31:05 <cyril> ... and not the expected rendering from the authors
16:31:51 <cyril> pal: as an example where this is not clear is the case where you have arabic (rtl) but writing mode is set (ltr) and textAlign is set to center
16:31:59 <atai> q+
16:32:02 <cyril> ... in that particular tts:direction will have no impact
16:32:08 <cyril> ... if it's pure arabic with no latin
16:32:35 <cyril> ... so that's the case where somebody might set tts:direction thinking it would do something but it does nothing
16:32:45 <glenn_> not true
16:32:55 <nigel> ack glenn_
16:33:00 <cyril> ... because some think it may set the alignment but they use text align
16:33:16 <nigel> nigel: Glenn please go ahead via IRC
16:33:19 <glenn_> I would like to point out (yet agaiin)
16:33:36 <glenn_> that tts:direction is used in two context with respect to tt:p
16:33:38 <nigel> present+ Glenn_IRC_only
16:33:57 <glenn_> and one context with respect to tt:span
16:34:11 <nigel> q?
16:34:14 <glenn_> it is used with tts:unicodeBidi as a parameter
16:34:15 <cyril> nigel: I think that's well understood in the conversation
16:34:22 <glenn_> i don't think so
16:34:34 <glenn_> with tt:p it has two uses
16:34:52 <glenn_> we need to  know which context applies
16:35:11 <glenn_> if we are talking about the use where it appears by itself
16:35:31 <glenn_> then tts:direction only means set the default paragraph embedding level
16:35:39 <glenn_> and that does have an impact
16:36:10 <glenn_> it means something and has a visual interpretation w.r.t. neutral characters
16:36:22 <glenn_> so I don't know why pal is saying it has no impact
16:36:29 <cyril> nigel: in Netflix cases, is tts:direction applying with unicodeBidi?
16:36:34 <cyril> cyril: no
16:36:35 <glenn_> it has nothing to do with textAlign
16:36:53 <cyril> cyril: there is no unicodeBidi in my example
16:36:53 <nigel> q?
16:37:11 <nigel> ack nigel
16:37:11 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to say that #1213 is the issue that implements Andreas's point
16:37:19 <glenn_> I don't have  the example in front of me
16:37:34 <glenn_> I think the examplle I looked at DID have unicodeBidi
16:37:46 <cyril> nigel: I wanted to make a point that the main things was that Andreas made a good point about the direction and CSS compatibility
16:37:59 <cyril> ... and that's precisely issue #1213 and that is not implemented
16:38:00 <glenn_> it had tts:unicodeBidi="embed"
16:38:10 <cyril> ... sorry, this is confusing
16:38:19 <cyril> ... in this PR, I don't think it does that
16:38:27 <cyril> pal: the PR is compatible with CSS
16:39:04 <cyril> ... because the PR proposes that the paragraph embedding level be set by the inline progression direction computed on the region
16:39:16 <cyril> ... which in CSS would be set by direction
16:39:42 <nigel> q?
16:39:56 <cyril> nigel: I will close the queue on this to move on in the agenda
16:40:10 <nigel> ack atai
16:40:39 <cyril> atai: I agree with Pierre that the PR solves the conflict with CSS because it avoids the situation where TTML acts differently from CSS
16:41:19 <cyril> ... but I also need to agree with Glenn that setting tts:direction to RTL and have centered arabic text as content in that p, will render different from the case where you have not set tts:direction on the p
16:41:22 <glenn_> that is precisely the semantic inconsistency I point out in my comments
16:41:35 <glenn_> tts:writingMode does not apply to tt:p
16:41:35 <cyril> ... there have been some examples in the long long thread
16:41:57 <cyril> ... where I mixed some latin text with weak characters and numbers, and this will be rendered differently
16:42:20 <cyril> ... I'm not sure if we discussed the option that some parts of the rendering could be implementation dependent
16:42:30 <cyril> ... I think that reflects the reality at the moment
16:42:38 <cyril> ... at least regarding the setting the edges
16:42:50 <glenn_> tts:writingMode applys to tt:region which has special semantics that flow to tts:direction which inherit down to tt:p which apply to paragraph embedding level WHICH NEEDS TO STAY AS DEFINED
16:42:52 <cyril> ... saying that it's not clear in the spec and implementation dependent
16:43:08 <cyril> pal: I will withdraw my PR
16:43:37 <glenn_> I support withdrawal of the PR, thank you pal
16:43:53 <cyril> SUMMARY: Pull Request is closed without merging due to lack of consensus
16:44:07 <cyril> Topic: TTML Profile Registry
16:44:20 <cyril> nigel: we published a new version, thank you very much Atsushi
16:44:34 <cyril> ... it's a WG note, we can publish whenever we like
16:44:40 <cyril> ... Cyril has made a request by email
16:44:48 <cyril> ... to add in a new IMSC1.1 based profile
16:45:04 <cyril> ... Mike expressed support for this already, which is helpful
16:45:14 <cyril> ... there is no general reason why we would not accept it
16:45:37 <cyril> ... the proposal I suppose is to use identifier nst1
16:45:52 <cyril> ... not used at the moment
16:46:10 <cyril> PROPOSAL: add the Netflix profile to the TTML Profile Registry as requested using identifer nst1
16:46:19 <cyril> nigel: any objections?
16:46:35 <mike> q+
16:46:46 <nigel> ack mike
16:46:57 <cyril> mike: no objection, I consider approved and closed, but I have a question
16:47:09 <cyril> ... the process says to put it in the agenda and discuss
16:47:23 <cyril> ... would we ever decline if the 5 items requested are provided?
16:47:36 <cyril> nigel: maybe there would be ways to misuse the process
16:47:48 <cyril> ... the fact that it's a formality is not a concern for me
16:47:57 <cyril> mike: I thought it was administrative
16:48:42 <cyril> RESOLUTION: add the Netflix profile to the TTML Profile Registry as requested using identifier nst1
16:48:56 <cyril> nigel: Cyril can you raise an issue?
16:48:57 <cyril> cyril: yes
16:49:19 <cyril> Topic: Patent Policy 2020
16:49:37 <cyril> gkatsev: I doubt that we really care that much
16:50:08 <cyril> ... but it sounds like if we wanted to apply the PP2020 we have through nov 27th to say so and the charter would be updated just for that
16:50:19 <cyril> ... so we could use the new PP immediately
16:50:38 <cyril> .. otherwise we will have to wait for the next re-charter, december next year
16:50:49 <cyril> nigel: I haven't kept track of the differences
16:51:00 <cyril> gkatsev: the continuous CR living standard would require that
16:51:08 <cyril> nigel: and we have no plan to use that mechanism
16:51:13 <cyril> gkatsev: not right now
16:51:22 <cyril> ... but I figure it's worth mentioning it now
16:51:41 <cyril> cyril: what's the harm in adding it now even if we don't use it?
16:51:46 <cyril> gkatsev: probably nothing
16:51:57 <cyril> nigel: anybody would have concerns about adopting it?
16:52:06 <atsushi> could be helpful: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1RoE8E4y8S1j65EJaXZ8oihkduNbjTXXvdwtkzw961Xw/edit#slide=id.g9b7a7df111_1_47 (slide used for DID WG TPAC)
16:52:46 <cyril> ... I would advocate for using it
16:53:06 <cyril> ... and for a reduced review period if there is this deadline of Nov. 27th period
16:53:44 <cyril> ... Atsushi, can I ask you to extend the deadline to accomodate our decision review period
16:53:53 <cyril> ... which would bring us to Dec. 3rd
16:54:14 <cyril> ... I don't want to reduce the review period, because people may have to go back to lawyers
16:54:26 <cyril> atsushi: this seems to be a strict deadline
16:55:56 <cyril> ... we can ask rechartering at any time
16:56:25 <cyril> nigel: I did not understand the deadline, causing AC review if we are too slow
16:56:35 <cyril> ... I will ask plh directly if you want
16:57:16 <cyril> atsushi: the purpose is to make it easy to review multiple charters at the same time
16:58:12 <cyril> PROPOSAL: adopt Patent Policy 2020
16:58:29 <cyril> nigel: are there any objections now
16:58:37 <cyril> cyril: I don't know
16:59:07 <cyril> ... I think it's ok but I will consult
16:59:35 <cyril> RESOLUTION: adopt Patent Policy 2020
16:59:59 <cyril> nigel: If you think you need a review, please do it now, don't wait for the 2 weeks
17:00:03 <cyril> ... it might be too late
17:01:58 <nigel> scribe: nigel
17:02:26 <nigel> Topic: Default branch name
17:02:39 <nigel> Nigel: We don't have time to cover this now so I'll bump it up the agenda for next week.
17:02:54 <nigel> Pierre: Would like a proposal from the Chairs and W3M. It's going to be work whatever we do.
17:03:07 <nigel> Nigel: I think it is going to impact Editors primarily.
17:03:15 <nigel> .. In any case, let's come back to it.
17:03:18 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
17:03:30 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time for today. [adjourns meeting]
17:03:34 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:03:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:08:34 <atsushi> nigel: for branch name item, let me send some line of summary and proposal for changing procedure shortly (I hope shortly...)
17:11:21 <nigel> Present- Glenn
17:11:26 <nigel> Regrets- Glenn
17:11:43 <nigel> Regrets+ Glenn_on_audio
17:11:58 <nigel> Present- atsushi, cyril
17:12:04 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi, Cyril
17:15:28 <nigel> a/I wanted to make a point that the main things was that Andreas made a good point/I wanted to note that Andreas made a good point
17:15:43 <nigel> s/#1213 and that is not implemented/#1213 and that is not implemented in this PR
17:17:12 <atai> atai has left #tt
17:18:45 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:18:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:19:31 <nigel> s|a/I wanted to make a point that the main things was that Andreas made a good point/I wanted to note that Andreas made a good point||
17:19:38 <nigel> s/I wanted to make a point that the main things was that Andreas made a good point/I wanted to note that Andreas made a good pointå
17:19:43 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:19:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:20:26 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:20:30 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
17:20:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Nigel, Cyril, Gary, Pierre, Glenn, Mike, atsushi, Glenn_IRC_only
17:20:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:20:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/19-tt-minutes.html Zakim
17:20:35 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:20:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt
17:20:40 <nigel> rrsagent, excuse us
17:20:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items