IRC log of foldable on 2020-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-irc
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Meeting: Aligning Foldable and Multi-Screen Proposals
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Meeting: Aligning Foldable and Multi-Screen Proposals (TPAC breakout)
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Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/breakout-schedule.html#screenproposals
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Chair: Anssi
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Scribe: Anssi
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Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik
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Present+ Matt_Reynolds
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Present+ Joshua_Bell
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Present+ Victor_Costan
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Present+ Mehmet_Oguz_Derin
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Present+ Simon_Fraser
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Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
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Present+ Takumi_Fujimoto
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Present+ Andreas_Tai
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Present+ David_Bokan
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Present+ Mike_Wasserman
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Present+ Laura_Marinigo
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present+ Joshua_Bell
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RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik
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present+ Victor Costan (Google)
15:03:55 [anssik]
Present+ Zouhir
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Topic: Aligning proposed APIs
15:04:52 [tidoust]
present+ Francois_Daoust
15:05:13 [anssik]
Mike: Plan on today's call is to continue Second Screen CG discussion of related proposals: Multi-Screen Window Placement, Window Segments Enumeration API, Screen Fold API, and potentially Visual Viewport API
15:05:27 [lgombos__]
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15:05:27 [anssik]
... I can give a quick overview on top of my head :)
15:05:42 [anssik]
... Multi-Screen Window Placement caters for a multi-monitor use case
15:05:53 [lauramorinigo]
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15:06:02 [anssik]
... the web is catching up here
15:06:33 [anssik]
... with permission we hope to provide the user and extended display environment
15:07:08 [anssik]
... Window Segments Enumeration API targets foldables
15:07:32 [Takumi_Fujimoto]
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15:07:36 [anssik]
... use case here is to provide a content area, DOMRect describing spread across multiple internal displays or a portion of a physical display
15:08:27 [anssik]
... window manager will align the window or an entirety of the display, the developer wants to align its content to a specific region
15:08:33 [tidoust]
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15:09:02 [anssik]
... align content to one fold or the another, that's an important distinguishing factor, how the content is laid on an existing window area vs. placing windows
15:09:49 [anssik]
... third proposal is Screen Fold API, the premise is to offer developers postures, so foldable device could be in a laptop or book posture, or in tent mode etc.
15:10:11 [anssik]
... another component of that proposal is to provide the angle of the hinge at different times
15:10:27 [anssik]
... any questions anyone about these proposals?
15:10:28 [anssik]
q?
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15:10:47 [fantasai]
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15:10:59 [anssik]
Mike: we tried to align these proposals in our previous CG discussions last week
15:11:20 [anssik]
... Zouhir had a good synopsis, some are targeting different device categories, some different usages(?)
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15:11:37 [anssik]
Present+ Alexis_Menard
15:11:42 [Jemma]
present+
15:11:47 [tidoust]
present+ Mounir_Lamouri
15:11:59 [lauramorinigo]
present+
15:12:01 [anssik]
-> https://github.com/webscreens/window-placement Multi-Screen Window Placement
15:12:02 [tidoust]
present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
15:12:06 [anssik]
-> https://github.com/webscreens/window-segments Window Segments Enumeration API
15:12:14 [anssik]
-> https://w3c.github.io/screen-fold/ Screen Fold API
15:12:15 [tidoust]
present+ Mark_Foltz
15:12:40 [tidoust]
present+ Zoltan_Kis
15:12:52 [anssik]
Mike: I took an action to describe more specifically how we could polyfill Window Segments Enum API using the Multi-Screen Windows Placement API
15:13:08 [anssik]
... I discovered that w/o innerLeft/Top the content within the frame, we cannot calculate
15:13:20 [anssik]
... browsers do not expose the area(?)
15:13:34 [tidoust]
present+ JaEun_Jemma_Ku
15:14:14 [anssik]
Mike: another reason why we decided these proposals to proceed in parallel, Segments, and Multi-Screen, is a notion that it is much more straight-forward scenario to adopt content to windows shape
15:14:16 [tidoust]
present+ Fantasai
15:14:42 [anssik]
... if laid across multiple screen, or move its window, it is simply trying to determine the device characteristics to help with that
15:14:43 [fantasai]
s/adopt/adapt/
15:15:11 [anssik]
... punchhole cameras, screen safe areas via CSS MQ, and potentially related to Visual Viewport API
15:15:25 [anssik]
... providing zoom pinch area rendered
15:15:49 [anssik]
... while we could extend Multi-Screen and polyfill Segments, not sure we should take that direction at this moment
15:16:13 [anssik]
... Screen Fold API provides info on postures and angle, but not positional info on the hinge that could be combined with Window Segments
15:17:12 [anssik]
... also a topic, whether multiple Screen objects or a single Screen should be exposed, is a big open question for Screen Fold API especially
15:17:46 [anssik]
... would like to see an effort to look into aligning Screen Fold API and Window Segments
15:18:02 [anssik]
... Zouhir, thoughts on Screen Fold API and its alignment with Window Segments?
15:18:51 [anssik]
Zouhir: both the APIs target the same class of web sites, that want to utilize region information, leverage postures such as tent or book mode
15:19:14 [lauramorinigo_]
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15:19:22 [anssik]
... controls on the site such as YY might want to put the controls on the bottom region, and video on the top region
15:19:43 [anssik]
... from this perspective, these APIs enhance the UX for the same class of web apps and sites
15:20:07 [anssik]
... I don't yet have a position on aligning with Multi-Screen Windows Placement
15:20:34 [anssik]
... e.g. Outlook email app might want to lay out the email list on one side, compose / read view on the other
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15:22:32 [anssik]
Alexis: on the other side of spectrum, devices for which the Screen Fold API is designed for, we don't have a big screen with foldable screen, but bigger devices are coming in the future, in this class of devices there's research in virtual hinge that the user can drop in the middle and the OS reacts and provides means to snap content on left and right side of the virtual hinge
15:23:36 [anssik]
Zouhir: question, why Screen Fold API is not like a generic sensor API, expose just an angle w/o posture?
15:23:39 [Jemma]
q+ about accessiblity issues with folder screen.
15:23:51 [Jemma]
s/folder/folding
15:23:54 [anssik]
Alexis: posture is a convenience
15:24:49 [anssik]
Jemma: ARIA co-chair, these proposals are really cool, have you thought of accessibility in design of these APIs?
15:27:01 [anssik]
Alexis: for dual-screen devices, the application itself spans across the screens, if you run two apps side-by-side it is similar to a desktop running two apps side-by-side, it is a single viewport so accessibility features should work
15:27:24 [anssik]
Zouhir: great questions, having two apps side-by-side is a key use case advertised for these devices
15:28:01 [anssik]
... we follow window manager and OS behavior, need to lay out the Web APIs on top of that foundation, rely on OS and window manager-provided accessibility hooks
15:28:39 [anssik]
... both Android and Windows 10X have great accessibility support for dragging and dropping etc. in a browser we do not have any control over that
15:28:41 [anssik]
q?
15:29:14 [smfr]
q+
15:29:49 [anssik]
Zouhir: if the browser is not spanned, on one side only, it means you're in a mobile responsive scenario and then span across two screens
15:30:15 [anssik]
... it would be interesting to see what patterns emerge, what knobs and primitives developers need
15:30:41 [anssik]
... think of a Google Doc use case, when you span you might have comments on the other screen
15:31:09 [anssik]
ack smfr
15:31:52 [anssik]
smfr: important accessibility feature is to be able to make things bigger, how in dual-screen devices the content is behaving in such a scenario when content is zoomed?
15:32:11 [anssik]
Zouhir: this needs its own breakout session :)
15:33:11 [anssik]
... when you zoom e.g. notch does not change, on dual-screen devices, when zooming, in the current prototype, we do not change the information re where the fold is, Daniel Libby is probably looking into this issue
15:33:19 [anssik]
q?
15:34:23 [anssik]
[ accessibility issue should be filed at https://github.com/webscreens/window-segments/issues/ ]
15:34:42 [anssik]
Mike: how segment info should change when the posture or orientation of the screen changes?
15:34:51 [anssik]
... API does not have any special events?
15:35:27 [anssik]
... to give updated information, need to listen to orientation(?)/resize events
15:35:31 [anssik]
q?
15:35:57 [anssik]
ack fantasai
15:36:28 [anssik]
fantasai: my expectation is the pinch zoom does not change the layout?
15:36:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: but layout-affecting zoom should change the values
15:36:48 [alexis_menard]
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15:36:51 [anssik]
Zouhir: great point, Daniel discussed this in CSS WG I believe, and Daniel will take an action
15:36:52 [anssik]
q?
15:37:33 [anssik]
Mike: I wanted to clarify whether watching the window.onresize event would be enough?
15:38:48 [msw]
please go on, i will try to fix it
15:38:48 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:38:48 [RRSAgent]
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15:39:16 [anssik]
Zouhir: while Mike fixes his mic issue, any questions?
15:39:42 [anssik]
Alexis: orientationchange event, is it enough or should we have its own event for segment changes?
15:40:06 [anssik]
Zouhir: if there's a use case, happy to discuss, I haven't yet seem a scenario for such an event
15:40:49 [tidoust]
anssik: Good practice: "When in doubt, leave it out"
15:41:05 [tidoust]
... One way to make progress is to put all the use cases on the table and see how they overlap
15:41:17 [tidoust]
... Not easy for someone not familiar to see the full picture.
15:41:19 [anssik]
Zouhir: I agree with that
15:42:09 [anssik]
... some of the use cases we trying to solve here, in general there are some UX patterns that work better in wider viewing areas, in pocketable devices people think it is great to see e.g. list and reader view in email reader
15:42:42 [anssik]
... another example, Instragram, posting a photo, you want to edit the photo with edit controls on one side
15:43:25 [anssik]
... we do have these experiences documented, one thing I want to say, most of our current customers want to see these experiences on these portable form factors
15:43:41 [anssik]
... no requests yet for multi-monitor use cases
15:44:14 [anssik]
... I'd be interested in hearing whether these use cases should scale to desktop class of devices
15:44:36 [anssik]
... or Multi-Screen Window Placement API happen on a portable form factors
15:45:58 [anssik]
Mike: use cases for Multi-Screen Window Placement, request full screen on split screen
15:46:13 [anssik]
... start presentation on another screen, display additional info on the another screen
15:46:28 [anssik]
... also dashboard use cases, window across multiple displays
15:46:53 [anssik]
... creative scenarios with palette, edit controls on secondary screen
15:47:12 [anssik]
... dashboards showing e.g. stock tickers across multiple windows
15:47:31 [anssik]
... digital signage as well, and many more
15:48:58 [anssik]
Zouhir: want to let develops split the viewport across hardware screen, so one window and one viewport, in contrast to multi-screen scenario different child windows
15:49:23 [anssik]
Mike: right, Multi-Screen not targeted at spanning across displays
15:49:56 [anssik]
... w/o innerTop/Left, information about content relationship is unavailable, you don't have the positional information
15:50:27 [anssik]
... goes back to fundamental idea, your screen as you mentioned earlier, windows segment information is more akin to where is the punchhole camera, or safe rendering area
15:50:43 [anssik]
... in that theme, it might be reasonable to expect this info to be available without a permission
15:51:00 [anssik]
... whereas in Multi-Screen Window Placement API, we gate it with a permission
15:51:17 [anssik]
... it'd be challenging to merge these two proposals, not impossible
15:51:45 [anssik]
Alexis: mobile phone form factor now prevalent, but we'll see evolution where mobile phone might be connected to an external screen
15:52:06 [anssik]
... as a developer I might want to present to an externally connected screen but my primary window is on a foldable devices
15:52:56 [anssik]
... query available screens to know how many segments are available, something to keep in mind how to cater for this use case
15:53:10 [anssik]
Mike: agree, would be good to think more of these paradigms
15:54:08 [anssik]
-> https://github.com/webscreens/window-placement/issues/41 Align terminology across related specs
15:55:13 [anssik]
Mike: couple of trivial examples, screens vs. displays, tricky to get right, not a 1:1 relationship!
15:55:22 [anssik]
... important to think in terms of legacy of the web
15:55:35 [anssik]
... you can access window.screen now
15:55:52 [anssik]
... if foldable is composed of multiple such screen objects, having access to both of those?
15:57:15 [anssik]
Anssi: happy to host a semi frequent virtual meetings to continue discuss these in the Second Screen group
15:57:23 [anssik]
... coordinate with CSS WG
15:57:58 [anssik]
Zouhir: we want to continue align with existing stuff
15:59:00 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:59:00 [RRSAgent]
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15:59:27 [anssik]
scribenick: anssik
15:59:31 [anssik]
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16:01:49 [tidoust]
i/Mike: Plan on today's call/scribenick: anssik
16:01:56 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
16:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html tidoust
16:02:45 [tidoust]
i/anssik: Good practice:/scribe+ tidoust
16:02:47 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
16:02:47 [RRSAgent]
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16:11:03 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-grid-1/#intro
16:12:33 [anssik]
fantasai: Flex and Grid differences and key use cases explainer
16:13:31 [anssik]
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16:16:59 [fantasai]
So extending https://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#the-screen-interface ?
16:21:57 [anssik]
Yes, see https://webscreens.github.io/window-placement/#dictdef-screeninfo
16:22:20 [anssik]
Or, "Shape roughly matches", not extending per se
16:22:45 [fantasai]
CSSWG discussion list - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
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16:35:19 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
16:35:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik
16:44:52 [masaya_ikeo_nhk]
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16:58:04 [msw]
Start of a shared explainer doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yBrAj2Kr6htpJglKST_zNDCJoQewfs-kHq5GLiGFTg4
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