14:43:29 RRSAgent has joined #foldable 14:43:29 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-irc 14:43:31 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:43:32 Meeting: Aligning Foldable and Multi-Screen Proposals 14:50:02 anssik has joined #foldable 14:50:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:50:39 Meeting: Aligning Foldable and Multi-Screen Proposals (TPAC breakout) 14:50:56 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/breakout-schedule.html#screenproposals 14:51:46 Chair: Anssi 14:51:54 Scribe: Anssi 14:52:39 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:52:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:52:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 14:59:13 Present+ Matt_Reynolds 14:59:21 Present+ Joshua_Bell 14:59:26 jsbell has joined #foldable 14:59:30 Present+ Victor_Costan 14:59:40 Present+ Mehmet_Oguz_Derin 15:00:34 Present+ Simon_Fraser 15:00:40 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 15:01:15 Present+ Takumi_Fujimoto 15:01:21 Present+ Andreas_Tai 15:01:33 Present+ David_Bokan 15:01:43 Present+ Mike_Wasserman 15:02:06 Present+ Laura_Marinigo 15:02:44 present+ Joshua_Bell 15:02:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:02:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 15:03:09 msw has joined #foldable 15:03:16 pwnall has joined #foldable 15:03:25 Travis has joined #foldable 15:03:48 mattreynolds has joined #foldable 15:03:53 present+ Victor Costan (Google) 15:03:55 Present+ Zouhir 15:04:49 smfr has joined #foldable 15:04:49 Topic: Aligning proposed APIs 15:04:52 present+ Francois_Daoust 15:05:13 Mike: Plan on today's call is to continue Second Screen CG discussion of related proposals: Multi-Screen Window Placement, Window Segments Enumeration API, Screen Fold API, and potentially Visual Viewport API 15:05:27 lgombos__ has joined #foldable 15:05:27 ... I can give a quick overview on top of my head :) 15:05:42 ... Multi-Screen Window Placement caters for a multi-monitor use case 15:05:53 lauramorinigo has joined #foldable 15:06:02 ... the web is catching up here 15:06:33 ... with permission we hope to provide the user and extended display environment 15:07:08 ... Window Segments Enumeration API targets foldables 15:07:32 Takumi_Fujimoto has joined #foldable 15:07:36 ... use case here is to provide a content area, DOMRect describing spread across multiple internal displays or a portion of a physical display 15:08:27 ... window manager will align the window or an entirety of the display, the developer wants to align its content to a specific region 15:08:33 tidoust has joined #foldable 15:09:02 ... align content to one fold or the another, that's an important distinguishing factor, how the content is laid on an existing window area vs. placing windows 15:09:49 ... third proposal is Screen Fold API, the premise is to offer developers postures, so foldable device could be in a laptop or book posture, or in tent mode etc. 15:10:11 ... another component of that proposal is to provide the angle of the hinge at different times 15:10:27 ... any questions anyone about these proposals? 15:10:28 q? 15:10:33 zouhir has joined #foldable 15:10:47 fantasai has joined #foldable 15:10:59 Mike: we tried to align these proposals in our previous CG discussions last week 15:11:20 ... Zouhir had a good synopsis, some are targeting different device categories, some different usages(?) 15:11:21 Jemma has joined #foldable 15:11:37 Present+ Alexis_Menard 15:11:42 present+ 15:11:47 present+ Mounir_Lamouri 15:11:59 present+ 15:12:01 -> https://github.com/webscreens/window-placement Multi-Screen Window Placement 15:12:02 present+ Xiaoqian_Wu 15:12:06 -> https://github.com/webscreens/window-segments Window Segments Enumeration API 15:12:14 -> https://w3c.github.io/screen-fold/ Screen Fold API 15:12:15 present+ Mark_Foltz 15:12:40 present+ Zoltan_Kis 15:12:52 Mike: I took an action to describe more specifically how we could polyfill Window Segments Enum API using the Multi-Screen Windows Placement API 15:13:08 ... I discovered that w/o innerLeft/Top the content within the frame, we cannot calculate 15:13:20 ... browsers do not expose the area(?) 15:13:34 present+ JaEun_Jemma_Ku 15:14:14 Mike: another reason why we decided these proposals to proceed in parallel, Segments, and Multi-Screen, is a notion that it is much more straight-forward scenario to adopt content to windows shape 15:14:16 present+ Fantasai 15:14:42 ... if laid across multiple screen, or move its window, it is simply trying to determine the device characteristics to help with that 15:14:43 s/adopt/adapt/ 15:15:11 ... punchhole cameras, screen safe areas via CSS MQ, and potentially related to Visual Viewport API 15:15:25 ... providing zoom pinch area rendered 15:15:49 ... while we could extend Multi-Screen and polyfill Segments, not sure we should take that direction at this moment 15:16:13 ... Screen Fold API provides info on postures and angle, but not positional info on the hinge that could be combined with Window Segments 15:17:12 ... also a topic, whether multiple Screen objects or a single Screen should be exposed, is a big open question for Screen Fold API especially 15:17:46 ... would like to see an effort to look into aligning Screen Fold API and Window Segments 15:18:02 ... Zouhir, thoughts on Screen Fold API and its alignment with Window Segments? 15:18:51 Zouhir: both the APIs target the same class of web sites, that want to utilize region information, leverage postures such as tent or book mode 15:19:14 lauramorinigo_ has joined #foldable 15:19:22 ... controls on the site such as YY might want to put the controls on the bottom region, and video on the top region 15:19:43 ... from this perspective, these APIs enhance the UX for the same class of web apps and sites 15:20:07 ... I don't yet have a position on aligning with Multi-Screen Windows Placement 15:20:34 ... e.g. Outlook email app might want to lay out the email list on one side, compose / read view on the other 15:20:35 atai has joined #foldable 15:22:32 Alexis: on the other side of spectrum, devices for which the Screen Fold API is designed for, we don't have a big screen with foldable screen, but bigger devices are coming in the future, in this class of devices there's research in virtual hinge that the user can drop in the middle and the OS reacts and provides means to snap content on left and right side of the virtual hinge 15:23:36 Zouhir: question, why Screen Fold API is not like a generic sensor API, expose just an angle w/o posture? 15:23:39 q+ about accessiblity issues with folder screen. 15:23:51 s/folder/folding 15:23:54 Alexis: posture is a convenience 15:24:49 Jemma: ARIA co-chair, these proposals are really cool, have you thought of accessibility in design of these APIs? 15:27:01 Alexis: for dual-screen devices, the application itself spans across the screens, if you run two apps side-by-side it is similar to a desktop running two apps side-by-side, it is a single viewport so accessibility features should work 15:27:24 Zouhir: great questions, having two apps side-by-side is a key use case advertised for these devices 15:28:01 ... we follow window manager and OS behavior, need to lay out the Web APIs on top of that foundation, rely on OS and window manager-provided accessibility hooks 15:28:39 ... both Android and Windows 10X have great accessibility support for dragging and dropping etc. in a browser we do not have any control over that 15:28:41 q? 15:29:14 q+ 15:29:49 Zouhir: if the browser is not spanned, on one side only, it means you're in a mobile responsive scenario and then span across two screens 15:30:15 ... it would be interesting to see what patterns emerge, what knobs and primitives developers need 15:30:41 ... think of a Google Doc use case, when you span you might have comments on the other screen 15:31:09 ack smfr 15:31:52 smfr: important accessibility feature is to be able to make things bigger, how in dual-screen devices the content is behaving in such a scenario when content is zoomed? 15:32:11 Zouhir: this needs its own breakout session :) 15:33:11 ... when you zoom e.g. notch does not change, on dual-screen devices, when zooming, in the current prototype, we do not change the information re where the fold is, Daniel Libby is probably looking into this issue 15:33:19 q? 15:34:23 [ accessibility issue should be filed at https://github.com/webscreens/window-segments/issues/ ] 15:34:42 Mike: how segment info should change when the posture or orientation of the screen changes? 15:34:51 ... API does not have any special events? 15:35:27 ... to give updated information, need to listen to orientation(?)/resize events 15:35:31 q? 15:35:57 ack fantasai 15:36:28 fantasai: my expectation is the pinch zoom does not change the layout? 15:36:38 fantasai: but layout-affecting zoom should change the values 15:36:48 alexis_menard has joined #foldable 15:36:51 Zouhir: great point, Daniel discussed this in CSS WG I believe, and Daniel will take an action 15:36:52 q? 15:37:33 Mike: I wanted to clarify whether watching the window.onresize event would be enough? 15:38:48 please go on, i will try to fix it 15:38:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:38:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 15:39:16 Zouhir: while Mike fixes his mic issue, any questions? 15:39:42 Alexis: orientationchange event, is it enough or should we have its own event for segment changes? 15:40:06 Zouhir: if there's a use case, happy to discuss, I haven't yet seem a scenario for such an event 15:40:49 anssik: Good practice: "When in doubt, leave it out" 15:41:05 ... One way to make progress is to put all the use cases on the table and see how they overlap 15:41:17 ... Not easy for someone not familiar to see the full picture. 15:41:19 Zouhir: I agree with that 15:42:09 ... some of the use cases we trying to solve here, in general there are some UX patterns that work better in wider viewing areas, in pocketable devices people think it is great to see e.g. list and reader view in email reader 15:42:42 ... another example, Instragram, posting a photo, you want to edit the photo with edit controls on one side 15:43:25 ... we do have these experiences documented, one thing I want to say, most of our current customers want to see these experiences on these portable form factors 15:43:41 ... no requests yet for multi-monitor use cases 15:44:14 ... I'd be interested in hearing whether these use cases should scale to desktop class of devices 15:44:36 ... or Multi-Screen Window Placement API happen on a portable form factors 15:45:58 Mike: use cases for Multi-Screen Window Placement, request full screen on split screen 15:46:13 ... start presentation on another screen, display additional info on the another screen 15:46:28 ... also dashboard use cases, window across multiple displays 15:46:53 ... creative scenarios with palette, edit controls on secondary screen 15:47:12 ... dashboards showing e.g. stock tickers across multiple windows 15:47:31 ... digital signage as well, and many more 15:48:58 Zouhir: want to let develops split the viewport across hardware screen, so one window and one viewport, in contrast to multi-screen scenario different child windows 15:49:23 Mike: right, Multi-Screen not targeted at spanning across displays 15:49:56 ... w/o innerTop/Left, information about content relationship is unavailable, you don't have the positional information 15:50:27 ... goes back to fundamental idea, your screen as you mentioned earlier, windows segment information is more akin to where is the punchhole camera, or safe rendering area 15:50:43 ... in that theme, it might be reasonable to expect this info to be available without a permission 15:51:00 ... whereas in Multi-Screen Window Placement API, we gate it with a permission 15:51:17 ... it'd be challenging to merge these two proposals, not impossible 15:51:45 Alexis: mobile phone form factor now prevalent, but we'll see evolution where mobile phone might be connected to an external screen 15:52:06 ... as a developer I might want to present to an externally connected screen but my primary window is on a foldable devices 15:52:56 ... query available screens to know how many segments are available, something to keep in mind how to cater for this use case 15:53:10 Mike: agree, would be good to think more of these paradigms 15:54:08 -> https://github.com/webscreens/window-placement/issues/41 Align terminology across related specs 15:55:13 Mike: couple of trivial examples, screens vs. displays, tricky to get right, not a 1:1 relationship! 15:55:22 ... important to think in terms of legacy of the web 15:55:35 ... you can access window.screen now 15:55:52 ... if foldable is composed of multiple such screen objects, having access to both of those? 15:57:15 Anssi: happy to host a semi frequent virtual meetings to continue discuss these in the Second Screen group 15:57:23 ... coordinate with CSS WG 15:57:58 Zouhir: we want to continue align with existing stuff 15:59:00 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:59:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 15:59:27 scribenick: anssik 15:59:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:59:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 16:01:49 i/Mike: Plan on today's call/scribenick: anssik 16:01:56 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 16:01:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html tidoust 16:02:45 i/anssik: Good practice:/scribe+ tidoust 16:02:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 16:02:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html tidoust 16:11:03 https://www.w3.org/TR/css-grid-1/#intro 16:12:33 fantasai: Flex and Grid differences and key use cases explainer 16:13:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 16:13:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 16:16:59 So extending https://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#the-screen-interface ? 16:21:57 Yes, see https://webscreens.github.io/window-placement/#dictdef-screeninfo 16:22:20 Or, "Shape roughly matches", not extending per se 16:22:45 CSSWG discussion list - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/ 16:27:17 tidoust has joined #foldable 16:29:52 kenchris has joined #foldable 16:35:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 16:35:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-foldable-minutes.html anssik 16:44:52 masaya_ikeo_nhk has joined #foldable 16:58:04 Start of a shared explainer doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yBrAj2Kr6htpJglKST_zNDCJoQewfs-kHq5GLiGFTg4 17:46:35 Zakim has left #foldable