IDCG Meeting

<koalie> Previous (2020-09-01)

Video

Kim Crayton has generously reviewed the W3C BLM statement and has provided feedback via video:

Dialogue with Kim Crayton

Leonie: Background leading up to this meeting
… this meeting is to figure out next steps
… Kim, can you summarize your feedback?

Dan: I watched Kim's video
… urge everyone else to listen and be receptive

Kim_Crayton: Tobie reached out 2 weeks ago
… feedback on BLM statement
… I offered to do that pro bono due to W3C's global influence
… introduces me to new spaces
… I was surprised that this homogeneous group would reach out
… my style may not comfort you
… the statement on its surface was not bad
… but it was not a BLM statement
… so the title did not fit
… not surprising, no black lives in this group
… white people need to stop speaking for black lives
… I was frustrated by your process
… context is loss in your email chain
… how do you get anything done?
… is that the best you can do?
… pretty crappy
… I told Tobie I need to talk to you

<koalie> [Tess arrives]

Kim_Crayton: I decided on video so nothing lost in translation
… To say "we support people" it's not bad
… if it is supporting a specific group, it is harmful to bring other things into that statement
… BLM + blah blah blah is crap
… Also, anti-blackness is global
… not just US
… even where there are no black people
… anti-blackness is everywhere
… that's why the movement went global in the middle of a pandemic
… tech is not neutral
… intention without strategy is chaos
… that is where this statement is leading
… I commend you for stopping
… lack of inclusion is a risk
… crisis management issue
… most companies have nothing in place
… engaging in safe ways is a crisis management issue
… white folks feeling a portion of what it is like
… this is white supremacy eating on its host
… you might have cared; but not enough
… the fact that you are late doesn't matter
… you are engaging becauses it causes harm to you
… you don't like how you feel
… only seeing white faces - that's a problem
… The violence statement was a red light
… people said we need to stop
… BLM, but with conditions?
… promotes a racist trope
… you should be thankful that black people have not rioted and taken over your cities
… Blacks were not considered people
… the fact that we don't run down white folks says something about our humanity

Leonie: Comments? Questions?

Barbara: I live in Portland
… totally relate
… a very white city struggling to move forward
… I am more action oriented
… if you were us - what are the 2, 3 things you recommend to move forward

Kim: Portland is a great example of what is problematic
… they do all of this stuff
… but they are very racist
… and have not owned up
… white folks think they are helping and are doing harm
… I'm not fixing this for free
… you need to decide if you want a solidarity statement or a BLM statement
… you don't need me for the former
… just remove the BLM title
… if you want a BLM statement
… (and thereby create a template for others)
… and dealing with the issues in tech more generally
… then I can help

Judy: I'm on W3C staff
… I would support paying a consultant
… some working on statements, some working on actions
… W3C is a key influence point in the tech field
… if W3C can develop some actions to improve
… and help others to do the same
… it would be a tiny piece in the right direction
… some members have an interest in W3C helping with that process
… pull together resources and actions
… you said you don't want to provide free advice
… so I don't know what else to say.

Kim: I saw your strategies in the letter
… they don't apply depending on your path
… it is moot since it is not a BLM statements
… as a consultant I can both draft a statement and build a playbook
… white folks should not do this by themselves,
… but I need them involved as a white shield
… without interpretation and change of nuance
… life is full of gray
… playbook needs to be iterative

Tzviya: Thanks Kim for the video, etc.
… assuming we have a BLM statement - can you point us to some companies who have done this well?

Kim: A billionaire reached out to me
… he was going to give the money away
… <provides the name> (not scribed since it is personal)
… wanted to give money to black businesses
… anti-racist education tech foundation
… told him that this does not exist
… I've gotten so many calls
… this is new
… this doesn't exist
… think of yourselves as pioneers
… we get to counter the narratives of companies who are lobbying
… will result in equity
… people are thinking about it; but noone is doing it
… let's get ahead of the harm
… provide alternatives

Wendy: Your feedback was amazing
… I had written the first draft of the statment
… I'm Canadian
… that's part of why I included indigeneous
… fused with BLM in Canada

Kim: Indeed, some are trying to annihilate indigeneous people

Wendy: I don't want to forget that group
… as a group we need to discuss direction
… so BLM v all lives matter - this is screwed up

Kim: Consider this a free coaching session
… You made a binary statement
… We all have a unique experiences
… even indigeneous cultures have anti-blackness
… all sorts of folks pass as white: indigeneous, Jewish
… that's the binary thinking that white folks have
… you can have multiple statements. But they need to be separate
… that is why I told Judy that this is not about people with disabilities
… you need to think in grays

Leonie: We extended our statement because this is not always binary
… people of color with disabilities; LGBTQ
… how do we handle that

Kim: Here you intended a BLM statement
… so you dilute that by bringing in the other things
… white people have never been left out
… you must stop gatekeeping

Annette: Can we share the video with the AC

Kim: Please
… don't translate for me

Annette: In terms of a solidarity statement
… is that worse than no statement?

Kim: Not for me to decide

Annette: What would it be?

Kim: Worthless

Leonie: To whom?

Kim: Who would the statement benefit

Leonie: The intention is that it would be helpful for people from marginalized communities

Kim: Intention without strategy is chaos
… how would the statement help?
… that's my view

Leonie: Well, Annette had asked about a solidarity statement
… off of that you said it would be worthless
… and I said why - it is not worthless to me as part of one marginalized community

Kim: It is worthless for the long term

Kim: Does not help black lives
… everyone has a solidarity statement
… does nothing for me
… it is the status quo
… do you want to stick with that?

Leonie: We as a CG have some decisions to make
… we have clear advice from Kim
… publishing the statement in the current form does not support BLM
… anyone think that is a mischaracterization?

Wendy: I agree we should not publish in the current state
… it was not my intention to cause more harm than good
… W3C can be a leader
… but we need help
… we also noted the lack of black people
… (and often the lack of women at W3C)
… I want us to be a leader
… but I want it to be the right way
… I want a BLM statement
… that requires changing the wording massively

<dka_> +1 to listening to Kim's feedback and to publishing a proper BLM statement.

Wendy: doing it right is better even if later

Kim: Don't worry about the time
… we started this thing
… we stepped on the breaks because we did not want to cause harm
… so we decided to create a strategy

Annette: We need to do more than reword it
… we need to rethink our strategy
… make W3C more black

Kim: Needs to be an international black lives matter statement
… says you are thoughtful
… recognize a global problem

Tzviya: We also discussed an equity review board
… early stages
… should we shift focus to recruiting more people
… shift our energies to actual actions
… sad that we are non-diverse
… big problem that this is a white group

Kim: I don't use terms like fair since that is decided by people in power
… I don't talk about equality
… give two families $100 for groceries
… one with farms and quality food; a car; kids in day care and they have choices
… the other lives in a food desert. Most go to convenience store. They don't have a call.
… it is not equal
… need to supplement family that does not have a car.
… money for taxis, baby sitter
… so they have same quality of food
… equal ability to prepare the food
… if people don't understand from the perspective of lived experiences?
… tech loves qualitative data
… quantitative data helps experience

Leonie: We all think the review board needs people of color

Kim: We recruit these people

<Ralph> [I heard qualitative vs quantitative the other way 'round]

Kim: but we fall flat on retention

<jeff> [Ralph, feel free to correct the record]

Kim: Looking at these white faces - you failed.

Leonie: In a community that is almost white, how do we make it more welcoming
… we need to take responsibility

<Ralph> [others might wish to record how they heard those remarks]

Leonie: that's what this community is doing.

<jeff> [You can provide a responsible opposing view]

Leonie: We have almost no people of color.

Kim: You don't know any black people?

Leonie: We do, but we don't want to impose on people's time

Kim: But you are willing to fix a problem that you don't understand?

Tzviya: We don't want to tell black people what to do
… we don't select the people who join W3C

Kim: That this is moot.
… you don't have the power.
… I'm hearing excuses
… you have not taken ownership
… you have not created a space where black people would feel safe

Annette: Here is how the AC works
… when an organization joins, they are the ones that nominate an AC rep

Kim: So that needs to change
… where is the power?
… why do it here if you don't have the power.
… push it up to where the power is

Wendy: I'm not an AC rep
… we are a CG
… we have some status
… but we don't have the power
… the CEO is listening
… my company is global
… why can't they send a diverse set of representatives
… we should demand that our members send their best and most diverse candidates
… I am giving an AC presentation
… I will ask them about that
… as a CG we should decide what we want to do
… the companies have diverse workforces

Kim: So Jeff is the CEO
… that is why I talk to leadership
… I have a finite bandwidth
… I don't like being translated
… people without power get burned out
… people in leadership need to advocate
… needs to come from the top
… communicated as an important initiative
… but I don't work with focus without power
… leadership needs to be at the table

Jeff: That's why I'm here

Judy: I wanted to give some examples
… with regard to inclusion of women
… over decades we kept hearing that W3C cannot do anything about it
… must rely on AC
… we pushed back
… start talking about standards career path
… then our membership started sending more engineers
… then women said it was uncomfortable
… then made it more welcoming
… similar thing happened with disability
… good is some areas
… but it took many years to recruit, mentor, encourage, find people with disabilities
… still working to be more welcoming
… we are in early stage for racial justice

Kim: In your efforts for women and disabilities
… you don't have black people
… still get left out
… women becomes white women
… LGBTQ becomes white LGBTQ
… disabilities become white disabilities
… I'm focused on the most vulnerable

Barbara: In my large company I see no effort
… I appreciate Judy's work
… but I've not seen it
… so is this a focus
… there seem to be no teeth or action

Kim: Without Jeff signing off I won't be doing it.

Leonie: I propose that we share the video feedback to the AC
… and recommend that we not publish the statement as is
… we will get back to them once we consider other steps

<dka_> +1

<tzviya> +1

<marisa> +1

<annette_g> +1

Leonie: since IDCG needs to rethink the plan

<hober> +1

<wendyreid> +1

<BarbH> +1

<jeff> +1 with coordination with W3M and the current WBS survey

<wendyreid> coralie: +1

several additional verbal: +1
… thanks Kim for all that you offered and shared

Kim: Thanks for having me

<BarbH> Great job. Learned a lot

Kim: you are bold to have invited me