05:32:53 RRSAgent has joined #manifest 05:32:53 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/26-manifest-irc 05:32:59 Zakim has joined #manifest 05:33:11 present+ Anssi, plh, xiaoqian, Marcos, yongjing, Krchrist 05:33:13 chair: plh 05:33:17 scribe: xiaoqian 05:33:30 https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/blob/gh-pages/specs/manifest/docs/explainer.md#a-miniapp-manifest-comparison-with-web-app-manifest 05:33:54 xfq has joined #manifest 05:34:17 marcosc has joined #manifest 05:34:23 https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/blob/gh-pages/specs/manifest/docs/explainer.md#a-miniapp-manifest-comparison-with-web-app-manifest 05:34:26 anssik has joined #manifest 05:35:12 scribe: xfq 05:35:20 marcosc: I'm going to talk about where we are at Manifest and the roapmap 05:35:30 ... moving to CR, widely implemented 05:35:41 marcos: @@ 05:35:41 ... web app manifest widely implemented 05:38:09 marcos: @@ new feature requests in CR 05:38:19 ... no more features 05:38:22 ... before CR 05:38:32 ... doesn't mean we can't develop things in parallel 05:39:04 ... let everyone focus on a CR feature set 05:39:14 ... manifest requires manual testing 05:39:18 ... no fun 05:39:35 ... weren't able to automate the tests 05:39:45 ... identify bugs and interop issues 05:40:08 ... quite surprising things like Safari doesn't support the icons 05:40:27 ... I won't go into the details 05:40:35 ... it's an ongoing process 05:40:39 ... that's how we work 05:40:48 ... we love to hear about new use cases 05:41:08 ... want to make sure that there's a common base 05:41:38 plh: does someone want to speak on the status of the miniapp manifest before we go to the list? 05:42:14 anssi: i've been following the discussions 05:42:21 ... high level question 05:42:41 ... does the miniapp community see value to interop with the web ecosystem 05:42:52 ... how people reach that goal? 05:43:27 ... two manifests have overlaps 05:44:30 kenneth: the goal from the TAG is not to have two manifest in the web ecosystem 05:44:46 ... we should know why that happens 05:45:46 yongjing: the status of the miniapp manifest 05:45:48 ... it's like 80% complete but still needs more details 05:45:59 plh: do you mean it's frozen? 05:46:05 yongjing: not frozen 05:46:22 ... we can further update the miniapp manifest 05:46:31 ... after receiving feedback from the community 05:46:56 ... appreciate the effort plh has maid 05:47:05 s/maid/made/ 05:47:32 https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/blob/gh-pages/specs/manifest/docs/explainer.md#a-miniapp-manifest-comparison-with-web-app-manifest 05:47:34 ... we can better adapt to the web app manifest style 05:48:01 plh: is there desire to adopt some of the stuff in miniapp manifest? 05:48:14 marcos: i can't predict the future obviously 05:48:23 ... but if the use cases are compelling 05:48:30 ... by all means possible 05:48:44 ... currently we're focusing on existing features before CR 05:49:24 ... we can go through them 05:49:49 ... if there's sufficient interest there's no reason not to 05:50:01 ... especially in the living standard model 05:50:28 anssik: @@ convert 05:51:35 ... someone who understands miniapps and web apps can answer why web app can't solve some problems 05:51:53 yongjing: let me try clarifying the question 05:52:18 ... why don't we use the PWA model? 05:52:26 ... @@ 05:53:02 ... the miniapp runtime, especially packaging, is not interoperable with web apps 05:53:09 ... miniapp is more like native apps 05:53:16 ... but uses web technologies 05:53:53 ... the things to be archived in a package is not web pages 05:54:17 ... not http exchanges in wpack 05:54:34 ... miniapp doesn't have this kind of requirement 05:54:46 ... but how to organize the files as a package 05:55:01 ... widgets @@ 05:55:33 ... not necessarily HTML5-based components 05:55:43 @@: if not HTML5, what's used instead? 05:55:51 yongjing: different in different vendors 05:56:08 ... some uses modified version of HTML5 05:56:30 ... some are not in a web context 05:56:56 ... markup language is not HTML 05:57:31 plh: an example would be the map component 05:57:37 yongjing: and tabs 05:58:27 anssik: what are the implementations expectations for miniapps? 05:58:56 yongjing: for current impls we have a "super app" model and a "quick app" model 05:59:14 ... for "super apps" like WeChat, miniapps are run in WeChat 05:59:33 ... some of them are based on webviews, some of them are not 05:59:52 ... some of the are moving from webview to a native approach 05:59:58 ... more like a Flutter style 06:00:43 anssik: it seems like miniapp is a fork, or a different thing from the web platform 06:01:14 yongjing: miniapp vendors are trying to converging with each other 06:01:38 ... we would welcome the browser vendors to join 06:01:50 ... to support browsers as another runtime 06:02:04 ... we have a meeting in the CG to discuss the runtime question 06:02:33 ... to see if it's possible to modify the browser runtime to support miniapps 06:02:56 ... or to include another engine in a browser to support miniapps 06:03:09 ... happy to explore this possibility 06:03:30 ... the main contributors of miniapps don't have a consensus on this yet 06:04:11 anssik: interop between web and miniapps can be very challenging from my experience 06:04:24 ... but interop among different miniapp vendors is easier 06:04:44 ... thanks for your explanations 06:04:48 ... clearer now 06:05:11 yongjing: at least in individual technology point of view, like manifest 06:05:18 ... we can align as much as possible 06:05:43 anssik: need to figure out the incentive of aligning with each other 06:05:59 ... like make porting web apps to miniapps easier 06:06:35 ... my limited understanding on miniapps 06:06:47 yongjing: this is one of the use cases we're exploring 06:06:59 ... some developers are porting from web apps to miniapps 06:07:17 plh: we can make the job of developers easier 06:07:50 ... converge between web apps and miniapps 06:07:59 ... and converge among different miniapps 06:08:22 marcosc: if there's interesting things that would benefit the web platform 06:08:32 ... that's tremendously useful 06:08:52 ... as anssik said, incrementally improve what's already have is the current model of the web platform 06:09:14 ... given we have millions of millions of web apps out three 06:09:20 s/three/there/ 06:10:38 marcosc: we're trying to force the community to finish the first phase of web app manifest 06:10:49 ... but still open to new features 06:10:55 ... after the first phase 06:11:23 https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Feature+Request%22 06:11:30 yongjing: what's the plan after the first phase? 06:11:58 marcosc: I don't expect much delay after the first phase 06:12:51 anssik: after process 2020 it's easier to add new features 06:13:15 marcosc: adding new features is not a challenge in w3c process 06:13:52 ... but a challenge to persuade Apple, Mozilla, Microsoft etc. the feature is a good idea 06:14:11 plh: I put a link on irc 06:14:17 ... on the feature requests 06:14:21 https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/804 06:15:19 plh: how we can converge on this example issue ^ 06:16:11 anssik: go back to miniapp environment 06:16:30 ... is it a reasonable goal to transition between web and miniapps 06:16:39 ... if so we should mention that in the charter 06:16:51 ... this is a side comment 06:17:18 ... if we have two different manifests in REC-track 06:17:23 ... membership will ask questions 06:19:00 yongjing: we can mention that in the charter 06:19:11 anssik: i've been charing das wg for a while 06:19:27 ... in that group we have connections with cordova/phonegap 06:19:35 ... not 100% converge with them 06:19:57 ... for example there are apis for accessing sensors in cordova 06:20:32 ... miniapp should feed those use cases and requirements into w3c and see if web can solve them 06:21:11 plh: doing an extension would work but in the future new feature @@ 06:21:36 marcosc: where things can align they should align 06:22:33 plh: the description of window is the most pressing one now 06:22:52 marcosc: miniapp manifest can have a miniapp properties 06:23:04 ... all miniapp-related properties can go into there 06:23:07 ... like a namespace 06:24:11 yongjing: one question 06:24:18 ... I read through the web app manifest 06:24:33 ... is there any text on which properties are optional 06:24:41 ... or all of them are optional? 06:24:47 marcosc: all of them are optional 06:25:31 yongjing: kind of worry that the mandatory properties are different 06:26:43 marcosc: @@ 06:26:48 plh: regarding permissions 06:26:59 ... reqPermissions in miniapps 06:27:09 ... what about web app manifest? 06:27:39 marcosc: incompatible with the web's permissions model 06:28:00 ... permission prompt when used 06:28:11 ... we also have Permissions Policy 06:28:29 plh: upfront is not possible? 06:28:47 marcosc: unless something like Permissions Policy 06:29:28 present+ wanyzitao 06:29:31 ... basically everything is allowed unless you disable it 06:29:52 plh: what's the use case for miniapps? 06:30:16 yongjing: most current miniapp implementations have permissions control 06:30:32 ... in many cases you need to get a user consent 06:30:40 ... before delivering the miniapp to the user 06:31:05 marcosc: that's fundamentally incompatible with web platform 06:31:14 ... also incompatible with iOS 06:31:48 ... @@ only when users agree 06:32:04 ... closely follow the Web's permission model 06:32:44 plh: next step is to keep iterating the miniapp manifest spec 06:32:51 ... not based on my pull request 06:33:06 ... raise feature requests against web app manifest 06:33:28 marcosc: super excited to see more use cases 06:33:55 yongjing: how do we do that from a logistics perspective? 06:34:10 ... @@ 06:34:22 marcosc: we can catch up every 3-6 months 06:34:40 yongjing: when we have a compatible version of manifest 06:34:43 ... we'll let you know 06:35:02 plh: I call that progress 06:35:18 ... can organize another call when we have a compatible version of manifest 06:36:04 [adjourned] 06:36:15 rrsagent, make minutes v2 06:36:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/26-manifest-minutes.html xfq 06:58:01 xfq has joined #manifest 07:17:10 RRSAgent, make log public 08:53:09 Zakim has left #manifest