IRC log of pbg on 2020-08-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/25-pbg-irc
15:45:44 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:45:45 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Business Group
15:46:05 [Ralph]
chair: Liisa
15:46:26 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/2020/07/21-pbg-minutes.html previous 21-July (NA/EU)
15:46:48 [Ralph]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Aug/0010.html
15:56:17 [Ralph]
present+ dauwhe, Ralph
15:59:41 [Ralph]
present+ Daihei
15:59:49 [Ralph]
present+ WendyReid
16:00:42 [Ralph]
present+ Tzviya, Ivan
16:01:50 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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16:01:58 [Ralph]
present+ Liisa, BillK
16:02:11 [Avneesh]
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16:02:17 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:41 [liisamk]
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16:02:44 [Ralph]
present+ George
16:02:56 [liisamk]
present+
16:02:56 [Karen]
present+ Karen
16:03:19 [Daihei]
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16:03:36 [Daihei]
present+
16:04:11 [Ralph]
chair: Liisa
16:04:29 [tzviya]
q+
16:04:30 [George]
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16:04:30 [Ralph]
topic: EU Text Data Mining Reseration protocol
16:04:37 [Ralph]
-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NwtWv_ESS4ZhaHDHWnDSQSJKHrfRmLNjDTPdwNE3aeA/edit "EU TDM Reservation Protocol" [draft]
16:04:57 [Ralph]
Liisa: Laurent Lemeur brought this to our attention
16:05:26 [George]
present+
16:05:46 [Ralph]
... Cristina noted this raises some concerns for publishers and copyright
16:05:58 [Ralph]
... what users of text data mining will do with content
16:06:08 [Ralph]
... Laurent shared a draft paper with us
16:06:22 [JulieBlair]
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16:06:29 [Ralph]
... thinking about where this impacts people's businesses
16:06:41 [JulieBlair]
present+
16:06:52 [Ralph]
Tzviya: I've been working on TDM at Wiley and in STM
16:06:53 [liisamk]
link to TDM paper - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NwtWv_ESS4ZhaHDHWnDSQSJKHrfRmLNjDTPdwNE3aeA/edit
16:07:04 [Ralph]
... STM is doing a lot of work in conjuction with CrossRef
16:07:16 [Avneesh]
I am not able to see passcode in the archived email. Can someone provide me please.
16:07:34 [Ralph]
... so there's something embedded in the metadata to make it clear what the license is and whether there's an exemption
16:07:56 [Ralph]
... what a "scholarly article" is and what an "exemption" means is not currently well-defined
16:08:15 [Ralph]
... you need to allow the user to access the information
16:08:22 [Ralph]
... and some sort of temporary storage is allowed
16:08:28 [Ralph]
... this is of great interest to Wiley
16:09:01 [Ralph]
Ralph: is this just an FYI from Laurent or is he proposing some sort of activity?
16:09:10 [Ralph]
Liisa: Laurent would like some feedback
16:09:30 [Ralph]
... he had a conflict for today but hopefully we can discuss in future meetings
16:09:38 [Ralph]
Tzviya: I'll try to pull together some stuff
16:09:48 [Ralph]
... the solution is very silo'd
16:10:04 [Ralph]
... if metadata can be embedded in some other identifier then perhaps this can be a more universal solution
16:10:14 [Ralph]
... the idea is to add metadata to an identifier
16:10:39 [Ralph]
... if academic and trade publishers do this different from scholarly, that will be a problem
16:10:50 [Ralph]
present+ Avneesh, JudyBlair
16:11:05 [Ralph]
s/Judy/Julie
16:11:23 [Ralph]
Liisa: was anyone else previously aware of this?
16:11:42 [Ralph]
... I suspect there will be feelings about how and where this gets used
16:11:55 [Ralph]
... it will take some discussion
16:12:34 [Ralph]
Ralph: who are the people in our community who we'd want to try to get to a future BG discussion?
16:12:51 [Ralph]
Liisa: let our members know this is going on
16:12:59 [tzviya]
q+
16:13:00 [Ralph]
... and get them to provide feedback to Laurent
16:13:12 [Ralph]
... do we think this is good or bad?
16:13:20 [dauwhe_]
q+
16:13:25 [Ralph]
... you need metadata to follow along with the content to allow or disallow
16:13:33 [liisamk]
ack tzviya
16:13:40 [Daihei]
q+
16:13:41 [Ralph]
Tzviya: my impression is that this is in legislation, like GDPR
16:14:08 [Ralph]
... I don't know what exactly this will mean in the world of trade publishing
16:14:29 [Ralph]
... it will be a matter of coming to terms on how we incorporate it into our workflows
16:14:41 [Ralph]
... but I don't think we can opt-out
16:14:42 [liisamk]
ack dauwhe
16:14:59 [Ralph]
Dave: this feels out of scope for this group to me
16:15:10 [liisamk]
ack Daihei
16:15:49 [Dan_Sanicola]
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16:15:53 [Ralph]
Daihei: from the perspective of Japanese publishers; in the next month or go we will go into deep discussion on how we apply the new EU circumstances in the Japanese industry
16:16:26 [Ralph]
... I'll come back to you with some understanding of how the Japanese publishing industry wants to apply TDM as well as more generically the accessibility situation
16:16:31 [Dan_Sanicola]
present+
16:16:32 [liisamk]
ack Ralph
16:16:54 [liisamk]
q+
16:17:15 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl-vocab/ "ODRL Vocabulary" [W3C Recommendation, 2018]
16:18:35 [Ralph]
Ralph: perhaps an overview for BG participants on the use cases that the work is tryng to solve
16:18:50 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
16:18:53 [Ralph]
Liisa: yes; a use case understanding that we can bring back to our internal teams
16:19:02 [liisamk]
ack liisamk
16:19:07 [Ralph]
... companies need to figure this out for themselves but awareness is our job here
16:19:32 [Ralph]
Bill: the business issue is not being surprised that your content is being mined without our knowledge, or that you want it to be mined
16:19:44 [Ralph]
... this sounds analogous to the EU accessibility requirements
16:20:06 [Ralph]
present+ Dan_Sanicola
16:20:23 [liisamk]
ack Bill
16:20:29 [wendyreid]
q+
16:20:36 [Ralph]
... the business issue is for publishers not to be unpleasantly surprised
16:20:38 [liisamk]
ack wendyreid
16:21:13 [Ralph]
Wendy: this may fall into a CG discussion; e.g. adding another metadata property to published workds
16:21:16 [Ralph]
s/kds/ks
16:21:23 [Ralph]
... we need use cases
16:21:37 [Ralph]
Liisa: we'll ask Laurent to bring us use cases
16:21:58 [Ralph]
topic: Audiobook Recommendation status
16:22:21 [Ralph]
Wendy: next steps: we're still looking for implementors
16:22:36 [Ralph]
... we got two more pull requests to be added as implementors in the past 24 hours!
16:22:53 [Ralph]
... we're putting together alist of content implementations as well as implementations that are not official yet
16:23:07 [Ralph]
... OBI is officially there as a content-producing implementation
16:23:17 [Ralph]
... I'll be adding Coresource; they plan to implement in Q1 2021
16:23:33 [Ralph]
... I'll be talking with Harper Collins about being listed as a publisher implementor
16:24:01 [Ralph]
... anyone else you know of who is willing to publicly say they're planning to publish in Audiobook form, I'm happy to add
16:24:33 [Ralph]
... we expect to start preparing for a Call for Consensus to advance [to Proposed Recommendation] in September
16:24:45 [Ralph]
... which will put us on track for Recommendation in late November
16:25:12 [Ralph]
topic: MathML Refresh
16:25:20 [Ralph]
Liisa: should we circulate this information
16:25:25 [Ralph]
s/ion/ion?
16:25:35 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/mathml4 MathML Refresh Community Group summary
16:26:00 [wendyreid]
scribe+
16:26:17 [Ralph]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/2020Jul/0028.html "WG draft charter" [Neil Soiffer, 20-July]
16:26:26 [wendyreid]
Ralph: Brian Kardell from Igalia gave a presentation on their MathML work at TPAC to the PWG last year
16:26:49 [wendyreid]
... the MathML community group working on the refresh is now discussing a charter for a working group
16:27:12 [wendyreid]
... Brian told us that the CG is identifying the subset of MathML that is both implemented and used
16:27:26 [wendyreid]
... so this isn't redefining MathML, instead trimming it down to make it easier to implement
16:27:48 [Avneesh]
MathML WG also includes work on Chemistry
16:27:54 [wendyreid]
... I haven't had the chance to review the draft charter, but MathML is important to this community
16:27:57 [Bill_Kasdorf]
There will be two versions, the core "trimmed down" version and the full untrimmed but improved version.
16:28:09 [wendyreid]
... this is something that this community should provide feedback on
16:28:13 [wendyreid]
... bring them use cases
16:28:15 [Ralph]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/2020Jul/0028.html "WG draft charter" [Neil Soiffer, 20-July]
16:28:43 [liisamk]
q+
16:28:44 [wendyreid]
... as we know from the EPUB3 WG charter process, there's a lot of time between starting and shipping a charter
16:28:54 [George]
q+
16:28:58 [Ralph]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mathml4/ Public MathML CG list archive
16:29:19 [ivan]
q+
16:29:27 [wendyreid]
liisamk: Do you think this charter will improve MathML conformance in EPUB?
16:29:30 [liisamk]
ack liisamk
16:29:31 [Ralph]
Liisa: do we feel there are still challenges in implementing and deploying MathML that will help the WG?
16:29:48 [Ralph]
George: in addition to the MathML CG there's a CG on chemistry
16:30:05 [Ralph]
... the Chemistry CG has been working with the MathML CG to add chemical semantics
16:30:16 [wendyreid]
q+
16:30:23 [Ralph]
... the first point was to identify the content as chemistry
16:30:52 [Ralph]
... and add metdata suggestions to allow differentation between symbols; e.g. 'K' can be potassium or Kelvin
16:31:00 [liisamk]
ack ivan
16:31:06 [Ralph]
... good work in the chemistry domain
16:31:06 [liisamk]
ack George
16:31:41 [Ralph]
Ivan: looking at the draft charter, it has a goal of two specs:
16:31:59 [Ralph]
... a simplified MathML Core and a MathML 4 that adds terms and features
16:32:12 [Ralph]
... it seems to be a big charter
16:32:34 [Ralph]
... may require a lot of work to shepherd it through the process
16:32:44 [Ralph]
... they have a long road ahead
16:32:54 [liisamk]
ack wendyreid
16:33:16 [Ralph]
Wendy: from what Brian told us at TPAC last year, the main challenge is not how MathML is referenced
16:33:23 [Ralph]
... but rather on the reading system side
16:33:31 [Ralph]
... webkit doesn't support MathML natively
16:33:40 [Ralph]
... we have to use a library to support it consistently
16:33:53 [Ralph]
... and App Stores get angry if your package size is too large
16:34:22 [Ralph]
... if Igalia's work is adopted by enough browsers, this will be a major change for us
16:34:36 [Ralph]
... support in webkit alone will be great
16:34:37 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to Wendy
16:34:39 [JulieBlair]
+1 Wendy
16:34:51 [Bill_Kasdorf]
It's a big deal and it's really happening
16:34:53 [tzviya]
q+
16:35:00 [Ralph]
Liisa: yes; the implementation has always been the struggle
16:35:08 [Ralph]
... there are some issues around authoring too
16:35:33 [Ralph]
Wendy: yes; authoring has been a challenge but one of the biggest challenges was lack of interoperability
16:35:40 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Would love to stay but have to drop for another meeting
16:35:41 [liisamk]
ack Ralph
16:35:55 [ivan]
q+
16:36:57 [Ralph]
Ralph: It's great that this is happening
16:37:13 [Ralph]
George: Mellon Foundation provided the funding to NISO and NISO engaged Igalia
16:37:16 [liisamk]
ack tzviya
16:37:29 [Ralph]
Tzviya: the integration with CSS and Aria is one of the more important aspects
16:37:49 [Ralph]
... the charter has so much in it; it might need to be trimmed
16:37:59 [guillian_hetzler]
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16:38:10 [Ralph]
... integrating MathML into Aria will be very useful and important
16:39:35 [liisamk]
ack ivan
16:40:05 [Ralph]
Ivan: early feedback on the CG's draft charter would be useful
16:40:27 [Ralph]
... a clear standard for what is implemented to have a core
16:40:32 [Avneesh]
q+
16:40:51 [Ralph]
... until that is done, extending beyond what's in MathML 3 seems a recipe for problem
16:41:02 [liisamk]
ack Avneesh
16:41:13 [Ralph]
present+ Guillian_Hetzler
16:42:10 [Ralph]
Avneesh: it seems that Chrome may ship something within a year
16:42:55 [Ralph]
... the charter has many deliverables; we need to help them streamline
16:43:42 [Ralph]
Ralph: we need to know what the publishing community feels should be streamlined
16:44:27 [Ralph]
topic: Use cases and content types
16:44:35 [Ralph]
Liisa: we'd like a TF in the CG for three content types:
16:44:41 [Ralph]
... FXL + reflow
16:44:53 [Ralph]
... what kinds of publications would benefit from being able to combine these?
16:45:02 [Ralph]
... Fullpage image + Reflow
16:45:15 [Ralph]
... where the image could vary depending on the screen
16:45:25 [Ralph]
... mix of FXL and Reflow in a single file
16:45:36 [Ralph]
... so the reading system can select
16:46:05 [Ralph]
... Daihei noted that this would be useful to the web comics publishers, so people could see something as if it were Reflow
16:46:19 [Ralph]
... get a discussion going to see how these things might be implemented
16:46:36 [Ralph]
... should we start a document and start sharing stuff?
16:46:51 [liisamk]
ack Ralph
16:47:06 [wendyreid]
Ralph: Part of the function of the BG is to find people who ought to be participating in these conversations
16:47:10 [wendyreid]
... whatever it takes
16:47:19 [wendyreid]
q+
16:47:26 [liisamk]
ack wendyreid
16:47:41 [Ralph]
Wendy: I struggle with this
16:47:50 [Ralph]
... they are all already EPUB features and in the spec
16:47:53 [Ralph]
... in the spine
16:48:03 [Ralph]
... is this a CG thing to understand the use cases?
16:48:15 [Ralph]
... so the spec properly communicates how to do it
16:48:29 [Ralph]
... it's not as clear in the spec as it needs to be
16:48:46 [Ralph]
... maybe a GitHub thread on use cases is enough; it might not need to be a full Task Force
16:48:56 [Ralph]
... we need to understand what people are trying to do and how we are failing them
16:49:13 [Ralph]
Liisa: I said "task force" because that's what the CG chairs proposed the way the CG will work
16:49:45 [Ralph]
... use cases are helpful; when there's a better understanding that it works and how, it can come back to the BG to help the reading systems understand how much content there will be
16:50:01 [Ralph]
... putting together som euse cases and handing them off
16:50:11 [Ralph]
... showing what works, what works with some tweaking
16:50:15 [Avneesh]
q+
16:50:17 [Daihei]
q+
16:50:18 [Ralph]
... will help push the conversations
16:50:25 [liisamk]
ack Avneesh
16:50:31 [Ralph]
Avneesh: technically this is in the standard
16:50:44 [Ralph]
... but it would be good to have some sample content and best practices
16:51:00 [Ralph]
... people start implementing more easily with sample code
16:51:10 [liisamk]
ack Daihei
16:51:13 [Ralph]
Daihei: the issues here are ...
16:51:31 [Ralph]
... whether it's a formal TF or not, we should explore use cases and samples
16:51:40 [Ralph]
... these subjects will help contribute to the advancement of business
16:51:44 [Ralph]
... expansion of business
16:51:57 [Ralph]
... I would like to see Publishing@W3C help get such contributions
16:52:21 [Ralph]
... as you know, manga is a key element of digital publishing in Japan; 85% of the business is manga
16:52:49 [Ralph]
... @@ is making a big impact on manga in Japan
16:53:08 [Ralph]
... the form of FXL rendering is going to be a key issue for digital publishing around the world
16:53:21 [Ralph]
... the example cases could be really helpful
16:53:31 [wendyreid]
s/@@/webtoons/
16:53:33 [Ralph]
... and W3C's presence will be really appreaciated
16:53:49 [Ralph]
Tzviya: do we have a method for documenting these use cases?
16:53:53 [Ralph]
Liisa: GitHub ?
16:54:46 [Ralph]
Ralph: we can ask around the Team for patterns for gathering use cases
16:55:22 [Ralph]
topic: PBG Meetings during TPAC
16:55:45 [Ralph]
Liisa: Daihei, Cristina, and I would to propose that we have two BG meetings on the same day as part of TPAC
16:55:56 [Ralph]
... two 90-minute meetings on the 13th
16:56:04 [Ralph]
... what big topics should we discuss there?
16:56:18 [Ralph]
... should we propose cross-group meetings there?
16:56:31 [Ralph]
s/13th/13th of October
16:57:15 [Ralph]
Ivan: the EPUB WG needs to plan its virtual F2F
16:57:30 [Ralph]
... it's like to meet for several days
16:58:04 [Ralph]
Wendy: I proposed some dates
16:58:17 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2020/GroupMeetings TPAC Group Meetings scheduling wiki
16:58:28 [Ralph]
... 19 to 23rd
16:59:26 [Avneesh]
Oct 26 week should be week of breakout sessions
16:59:42 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/#schedule TPAC 2020 schedule
17:02:38 [Ralph]
Ralph: we're asked to keep the week of 12-16 October free for joint group meetings
17:02:52 [Ralph]
... so the PBG meeting on the 13th isn't necessarily a show-stopper
17:03:16 [Ralph]
... but some of our participants and hoped-for observers may have conficts with scheduled joint meetings
17:03:21 [tzviya]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2020/GroupMeetings
17:03:39 [Ralph]
Daihei: we'll come back with a proposed agenda
17:04:04 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
17:04:08 [Ralph]
zakim, end meeting
17:04:08 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, Ralph, Daihei, WendyReid, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, BillK, Bill_Kasdorf, George, liisamk, Karen, JulieBlair, Avneesh, JudyBlair,
17:04:11 [Zakim]
... Dan_Sanicola, Guillian_Hetzler
17:04:11 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:04:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/25-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
17:04:13 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:04:17 [Zakim]
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