IRC log of tt on 2020-08-06

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/06-tt-irc
15:02:05 [Zakim]
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15:02:06 [Zakim]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:03:47 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/134
15:03:55 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html
15:04:02 [nigel]
Present+ Nigel
15:04:06 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel, Gary
15:04:08 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:06:37 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Mike, Pierre
15:07:16 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:07:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Today we celebrate IMSC 1.2 Rec! And consider the ARIB liaison response.
15:07:53 [nigel]
.. TTML2 IR - I've had a look and would like to mention a couple of things
15:08:10 [nigel]
.. Lastly a small amount of TPAC planning.
15:08:24 [nigel]
.. Any other business, or points to ensure we cover?
15:08:36 [nigel]
Pierre: Is that TTML2 issue on the agenda?
15:08:39 [nigel]
Nigel: Not currently.
15:08:55 [nigel]
Pierre: 1211 - the one about writingMode and direction
15:09:09 [nigel]
.. I guess if Cyril is not on the call maybe it will be a short discussion.
15:09:24 [nigel]
Nigel: We can raise it.
15:09:39 [nigel]
group: [no other business]
15:09:45 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.2 Rec
15:10:40 [nigel]
Nigel: Congratulations all, and thank you all for your work on this, it's great to publish!
15:10:51 [nigel]
.. Special shout out to Pierre for Editing.
15:11:12 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/ IMSC 1.2 Rec
15:11:20 [nigel]
Nigel: I think there is no more to do on this?
15:11:40 [nigel]
Atsushi: I don't think there are any additional tasks for this Rec.
15:11:49 [nigel]
Pierre: So Pull Request #563 should be merged?
15:12:24 [nigel]
.. And 565 good to merge too?
15:12:29 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, that's in the Rec.
15:12:40 [nigel]
Pierre: So all the outstanding Pulls should be merged?
15:12:49 [nigel]
Atsushi: Please be careful not to conflict 564 and 565
15:13:01 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes, though the current ED is the Rec because there's no modification
15:13:03 [nigel]
Atsushi: Right
15:13:12 [nigel]
Pierre: Thank you, I will merge.
15:13:21 [nigel]
Atsushi: 564 is the actual source file I used for publication.
15:13:36 [atsushi]
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/564#issuecomment-667834906
15:13:53 [nigel]
Pierre: I will be careful with that then
15:14:24 [nigel]
.. And in the Rec the group has been changed in the respec settings?
15:14:39 [nigel]
Atsushi: No, the respec config is internal now, replacing the settings doesn't change the output.
15:14:52 [nigel]
Pierre: Ok that's fine. But the Rec did not include pull 563
15:15:00 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, it does not include it, but it does include 565.
15:15:14 [nigel]
Pierre: Alright, I will take care of that. I will merge 565 into 564 and then that will be the Rec,
15:15:17 [atai]
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15:15:19 [nigel]
.. and then separately will merge 563.
15:15:23 [nigel]
Atsushi: sure.
15:15:29 [nigel]
Pierre: OK I'll take of this, thanks.
15:15:53 [nigel]
Topic: ARIB liaison response
15:16:31 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you to those who proposed changes on the google doc, they all made sense
15:16:35 [nigel]
.. so I accepted them all.
15:17:04 [nigel]
.. Just checking in, did anyone try to look at the google doc and fail?
15:17:21 [nigel]
group: [silence]
15:17:25 [nigel]
Nigel: Ok, a good sign.
15:18:11 [nigel]
.. I think this is good. There's one TODO on it, so we should do that and send.
15:18:25 [nigel]
Pierre: There's some cleaning up, but I'm happy with the substance. Commas and full-stops
15:18:27 [nigel]
.. missing etc.
15:18:33 [nigel]
Nigel: I will proof-read before sending.
15:19:46 [nigel]
.. For the TODO, I need to point them at somewhere for joining TTWG.
15:19:59 [nigel]
.. Could put me, or the home page, or the Charter. Is there a normal way to do it?
15:20:14 [nigel]
Atsushi: Normally there would be a cover page, but for this time I think it is fine to include
15:20:24 [nigel]
.. the Charter/Home page and How to Join in that section of the response.
15:20:53 [nigel]
Nigel: If I'm suggesting someone to talk to, should I mention the Chairs and yourself Atsushi?
15:21:06 [nigel]
Atsushi: I suppose they will take the Chairs and team contact as myself from the liaisons page.
15:21:37 [nigel]
Nigel: If ARIB members see this they are unlikely to know about the W3C liaisons page.
15:21:45 [nigel]
.. Better to be clear about how to join and who to talk to.
15:21:57 [nigel]
.. That's the Chairs and Team Contact I think. Good.
15:22:38 [nigel]
Nigel: What review opportunities do we want?
15:22:55 [nigel]
.. By default, I think we're at the point where I can edit this and send it almost as is.
15:23:06 [nigel]
.. But if anyone wants more review time, please say!
15:23:25 [nigel]
.. I won't come to this until Monday at the earliest.
15:23:39 [nigel]
Pierre: My recommendation is if you want to make the editorial pass, post it through the
15:23:46 [nigel]
.. reflector, give people 1 day and then proceed.
15:23:49 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks for that.
15:24:24 [nigel]
.. I think it's in the remit of the Chair to send this, and I really appreciate the input so far.
15:24:32 [nigel]
.. I will give a short review cycle and then proceed.
15:24:38 [nigel]
.. Thank you all!
15:25:00 [nigel]
.. We've spent a lot of time on this and I feel it is worthwhile.
15:25:15 [nigel]
Topic: TTML 2 2nd Ed.
15:25:34 [nigel]
Nigel: Last week I mentioned that the IR covers a lot of features, none of which are at risk.
15:27:53 [nigel]
.. I checked again and I think the structure of the IR doesn't quite match what the exit criteria
15:28:05 [nigel]
.. need. In particular there are changed features that have validation tests but no presentation
15:28:17 [nigel]
.. tests, and we may have presentation implementations that could usefully be brought in.
15:28:34 [nigel]
.. I'm thinking in particular about the implied audio features, where there is only a validation
15:28:47 [nigel]
.. test but there may be a presentation implementation.
15:29:00 [nigel]
.. Therefore I think we may need to restructure in relation the changed features and group
15:29:12 [nigel]
.. the tests like that instead of around validation pass/fail + presentation tests.
15:29:27 [nigel]
.. My thinking on that is work in progress.
15:30:05 [nigel]
.. I think the action for me is to follow up on this with Cyril and Glenn.
15:30:22 [nigel]
Topic: Virtual TPAC 2020 planning
15:30:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you for your ongoing help organising, Atsushi.
15:30:59 [nigel]
.. Things are in progress with MEIG and Media WG, and with CSS WG.
15:31:13 [nigel]
.. However with CSS WG we don't have a list of agenda items, and I think it would be
15:31:20 [nigel]
.. helpful to begin putting that together if we can.
15:32:07 [nigel]
.. They may not be obvious, for example font fingerprinting could be one of them.
15:32:20 [nigel]
Pierre: I think Cyril is key to this - he's recently filed an issue against Chrome for example.
15:32:32 [nigel]
Nigel: I saw that, about oblique.
15:32:52 [nigel]
Nigel: Then there's a request to us!
15:33:12 [nigel]
.. Janina from APA asked for a joint meeting about formalising synchronisation requirements
15:33:27 [nigel]
.. for making media accessible when there are different representations, e.g. text + audio.
15:33:31 [nigel]
.. That was my understanding.
15:34:21 [nigel]
.. I think we should say yes. We obviously do care about synchronisation of timed text
15:34:31 [nigel]
.. against media, and we don't know the shape of what they're proposing at this time.
15:34:48 [nigel]
.. Assuming there are no naysayers, I will respond positively.
15:34:55 [nigel]
Gary: No objections here.
15:35:08 [nigel]
.. This goes hand in hand with what Chris Needham from BBC has been doing about the
15:35:19 [nigel]
.. timing of the cue events and time updates in the media element and how, because they
15:35:26 [nigel]
.. happen so infrequently, it's hard to synchronise.
15:35:32 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes, I think it does.
15:36:01 [nigel]
.. I think one of the things APA is interested to know is if there are different thresholds for
15:36:09 [nigel]
.. synchronisation accuracy for different kinds of presentation.
15:37:15 [nigel]
.. This email was sent to me and Gary. I think she may not know about the links with
15:37:25 [nigel]
.. MEIG and Media WG, so we should respond to inform APA about that work.
15:38:03 [nigel]
q?
15:38:41 [nigel]
Nigel: I Chair ADCG too and asked them if they would like to spend time with us here, but
15:38:51 [nigel]
.. so far the silence implies they're happy for us to continue, I think.
15:39:27 [nigel]
Nigel: Separately I think we have dates for the AC week in virtual TPAC 2020 now...
15:40:12 [nigel]
.. Thank you Atsushi for sending the details to the member-tt reflector.
15:40:55 [nigel]
Topic: AOB - Chairing on 2020-08-13
15:41:09 [nigel]
Nigel: Regrets from me for next week. Assumption is the meeting goes ahead as normal?
15:41:16 [nigel]
Gary: I can probably Chair it.
15:41:43 [atsushi]
q+ do we plan long group meeting in solid date/time?
15:42:08 [nigel]
Nigel: It doesn't seem that there's a huge amount for the agenda.
15:42:11 [nigel]
ack at
15:42:29 [nigel]
Atsushi: do we plan long group meeting in solid date/time?
15:42:36 [nigel]
Nigel: During TPAC?
15:42:47 [nigel]
Atsushi: yes. 3 weeks of proposed meetings.
15:42:49 [nigel]
.. 1st joint.
15:42:53 [nigel]
.. 2nd group meetings.
15:42:57 [nigel]
.. 3rd breakouts
15:43:07 [nigel]
.. Do we plan to have our group meeting during TPAC?
15:43:49 [nigel]
Nigel: I would be in favour - I think there are topics that could warrant a longer session.
15:44:01 [nigel]
Pierre: Everybody is going to get the same slots so unless we need a WG meeting we should
15:44:03 [nigel]
.. avoid doing so.
15:45:27 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm thinking about topics like IMSC future requirements, ADPT, TTML Live extensions
15:45:39 [nigel]
.. etc. and that will need a lot of prep. I think we could use a longer session, but it needs
15:45:48 [nigel]
.. prep time and it doesn't have to be in virtual TPAC, it could be later.
15:45:53 [nigel]
Pierre: Exactly.
15:46:23 [nigel]
Nigel: In answer, I think we quite likely won't meet, and if we do then it would likely be
15:46:25 [nigel]
.. maximum one day.
15:46:38 [nigel]
Atsushi: We need to complete the wiki form, so if we can fix that it would be a great help
15:46:39 [nigel]
.. for me.
15:46:43 [nigel]
Nigel: Understood!
15:47:47 [nigel]
Topic: (AOB) Interaction between tts:writingMode and tts:direction on <p> w3c/ttml#1211
15:47:51 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1211
15:49:09 [nigel]
Nigel: One thing I note about this is Direction003 used to be in TTML tests and has moved
15:49:21 [nigel]
.. to IMSC tests and that has confused a couple of people independently recently.
15:49:48 [nigel]
.. Does anyone else feel that an explainer for Where to Find TTML Tests would be a useful document?
15:51:32 [nigel]
Pierre: Looking at Glenn's comments, he thinks TTPE's presentation is wrong.
15:51:38 [nigel]
Nigel: He thinks the reference render is wrong though.
15:53:17 [nigel]
Pierre: [explains how the lines in the p all use the whole width so the layout direction - scribe failure]
15:53:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Is textAlign used in the test?
15:53:38 [nigel]
Pierre: It would be weird for textAlign to be affected by writingMode.
15:54:46 [nigel]
.. I think we need an answer from Glenn.
15:56:11 [nigel]
Nigel: How do you know the line areas cover the whole width? That seems unusual.
15:56:16 [nigel]
Pierre: Exactly.
15:56:34 [nigel]
Pierre: Maybe we need to get everyone around the table for that with examples.
15:58:01 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm sure if we schedule this for a meeting and invite Glenn then we can gather him and
15:58:06 [nigel]
.. anyone else interested.
15:58:20 [nigel]
Andreas: I planned also to look into this issue so please keep me posted if you schedule a
15:58:23 [nigel]
.. separate meeting.
15:58:42 [nigel]
Nigel: My default here would be to use one of these TTWG weekly calls if possible.
15:59:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Let's allow the conversation to continue on the issue thread, and convene a meeting
15:59:37 [nigel]
.. perhaps in 2 weeks time, if there are outstanding questions.
15:59:46 [nigel]
Pierre: Alright.
16:00:03 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Continue discussions on the issue thread for the time being.
16:00:20 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:00:58 [nigel]
Nigel: The clock has just ticked over to the hour, and we've completed our agenda. I'm adjourning this meeting!
16:01:02 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:07:11 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:07:18 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:07:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Mike, Pierre
16:07:20 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:07:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/06-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:07:23 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:07:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:07:54 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:07:54 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items