15:51:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
15:51:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-irc
15:51:20 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: quiet
15:51:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'quiet', AutomatedTester.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:51:44 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: silence
15:55:00 <AutomatedTester> Meeting: Webdriver Bidi August 2020
15:55:11 <simonstewart> simonstewart has joined #webdriver
15:55:22 <AutomatedTester> chair: AutomatedTester
15:55:39 <AutomatedTester> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-08-BiDi
15:55:58 <AutomatedTester> scribe: David Burns
15:56:10 <AutomatedTester> scribeNick: AutomatedTester
15:57:24 <AutomatedTester> present+
15:59:01 <jgraham> present+
15:59:17 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
15:59:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
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15:59:54 <maja_zf> present+
15:59:56 <simonstewart> present+
15:59:59 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes public
15:59:59 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', jgraham.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:27 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:00:41 <jgraham> gsnedders: Might depend on which browser?
16:00:49 <gsnedders> jgraham: I've tried three
16:00:57 <jgraham> (or only be enabled for some corp. installs I suppose)
16:01:26 <gsnedders> https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/115005666383-Show-a-Join-from-your-browser-Link
16:02:15 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: maybe for the next meeting? unless you can m
16:02:27 <AutomatedTester> I can't figure it out from the things now
16:02:39 <simonstewart> I think you can wait for a Long Time, and then zoom asks if you want to join via the browser
16:03:16 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: try https://browserstack.zoom.us/j/93785219642?pwd=QUZ1dkZyQUJUMnpvVGFwVFI2RXVZUT09 and see if that works
16:03:49 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-08-BiDi
16:04:08 <bwalderman> bwalderman has joined #webdriver
16:04:18 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-08-BiDi
16:04:58 <AutomatedTester> topic: Followups from previous meeting
16:05:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I can't talk about followups but what we have done since the last meeting. bwalderman has landed a PR on how to create commands
16:06:13 <AutomatedTester> .... We have used a schema language that is based off a spec that looks like it should work
16:06:26 <jgraham> CDDL
16:06:52 <AutomatedTester> topic: Non-upgrade sessions
16:07:33 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: As part of the initial landing of the first command we had some fall out.
16:08:19 <AutomatedTester> ... there is no way to send commands unless you have a session but in the httpversion yuou can do it at any point
16:08:35 <simonstewart> q+
16:08:35 <bwalderman> q+
16:08:54 <AutomatedTester> ... so the question for this group is : Do we start from the stance that we upgrade from the start or do we have a status command?
16:09:07 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:09:11 <AutomatedTester> ack
16:09:37 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the status command isn't just used by the things that already has a session. It's used as a health check
16:09:52 <cb> present+
16:09:56 <jgraham> q+
16:10:07 <drousso> present+
16:10:15 <jgraham> ack simonstewart
16:10:37 <AutomatedTester> ... we have things set up in the http version to start from a well known http endpoint ånd fan out. Why cant we do that with the wss connection?
16:10:43 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:10:53 <jgraham> ack bwalderman
16:11:27 <AutomatedTester> bwalderman: the status command is there to show ghow to do CDDL
16:12:21 <AutomatedTester> ... I was wondering how we should approach duplicate commands between the 2 specs?
16:12:29 <gsnedders> q+
16:12:30 <AutomatedTester> ... as sessions without an upgrade would be useful. we just havent spoken about it before
16:12:33 <simonstewart> q+
16:12:48 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:13:42 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in response to simonstewart is that you get a url from the http session. Do we think we should support an wss from the start?
16:14:12 <AutomatedTester> ... status is more like a placeholder so this made me think about the session.
16:14:18 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:14:28 <AutomatedTester> ack gsnedders
16:14:33 <jgraham> ack gsnedders
16:14:57 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: we should not spend too much time here and can loop back to it later
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16:15:42 <AutomatedTester> ... I can see situations where we don't want to start the browser with a window but have a session and that can be really useful
16:15:45 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:15:49 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:16:15 <jgraham> I agree with gsnedders fwiw
16:16:16 <bwalderman> q+
16:17:14 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: to bwalderman point on duplicate commands, I think people willuse one or other, so it seems reasonable to duplicate for now. eventually we wiull go to full bidi
16:17:43 <AutomatedTester> ... I can see having a proper defined wss url being useful in the future but we should worry about it for now
16:17:46 <AutomatedTester> ... end of message
16:17:54 <AutomatedTester> ack bwalderman
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16:18:51 <simonstewart> q+
16:19:08 <AutomatedTester> bwalderman: that makes sense... we will want to get to the point of removing duplications . I think we will need to come a point where interleaving commands becomes super important
16:19:11 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:19:15 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:20:05 <jgraham> q+
16:20:14 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we could habve a predefined webdriver domain that goes over the bidi and that we can call out to the origianl spec and that makes life easier
16:20:17 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:21:05 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham there has been a requirement form the start to support http and bidi.
16:21:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham there has been a requirement form the start to support http and bidi.
16:21:37 <AutomatedTester> topic: Console log interoperability
16:22:05 <AutomatedTester> maja_zf: I filed an issue about a logging module in the spec.
16:22:18 <AutomatedTester> ... since this would be a good avenue for prototyping
16:22:41 <simonstewart> Can we get a link to the logging module, please?
16:22:49 <AutomatedTester> https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/45
16:23:37 <AutomatedTester> maja_zf: we are seeing testers want this feature and there can be interop issues
16:23:39 <simonstewart> q+
16:23:47 <jgraham> ack jgraham
16:24:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:24:13 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:25:02 <brrian> q+
16:25:21 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: logging is something that people really want and there are ideas we need to do it
16:25:31 <AutomatedTester> ... this seems like a reasonable start
16:25:39 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:25:51 <AutomatedTester> ack brrian
16:26:20 <AutomatedTester> brrian: this seems to be oriented towards console.log but there are other logs that are useful
16:26:22 <jgraham> q+
16:26:49 <bwalderman> q+
16:26:52 <AutomatedTester> ... there is logging that doesnt come from the engine but is useful in the client
16:27:29 <AutomatedTester> ... [give iOS example]
16:27:29 <simonstewart> Side note: The equivalent API in Selenium looks like this: https://github.com/SeleniumHQ/selenium/blob/trunk/java/client/src/org/openqa/selenium/logging/LogEntry.java
16:27:35 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:27:40 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:27:45 <simonstewart> (Essentially a level, timestamp and message)
16:28:31 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: A "bad" way to interpret it is what would be in the console in devbtools .
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16:28:45 <AutomatedTester> ... so it's not just console but things that come from the engine
16:29:13 <AutomatedTester> ... should we just say send all from the protocol and let the client filter
16:29:41 <simonstewart> q+
16:29:55 <simonstewart> q-
16:30:05 <simonstewart> q+
16:30:08 <gsnedders> q+
16:30:46 <AutomatedTester> ... should we be filtering in the browser instead of the client
16:30:54 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:30:55 <maja_zf> q+
16:31:05 <AutomatedTester> ack bwalderman
16:31:10 <simonstewart> q-
16:31:15 <brrian> in WebKit at least, console messages in DevTools can come from the engine, or appended by the embedder. Blocking valid navigations that would launch another app is a WebDriver-specific behavior and so is not currently logged to console. It may be that logging to console is the easiest way to exfiltrate the event to WebDriver BiDi.
16:32:29 <AutomatedTester> bwalderman: I would try limit what can go itno the logging to a console and if you want platform events you would subscribe to those logging events
16:32:56 <AutomatedTester> and they would be differently shaped instead of shoehorning it all into 1 type
16:33:08 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:33:19 <AutomatedTester> ack gsnedders
16:33:31 <AutomatedTester> ack maja_zf
16:33:47 <bwalderman> q+
16:33:55 <AutomatedTester> maja_zf: filtering on the browser makes a lot of sense
16:33:56 <simonstewart> q+
16:34:45 <AutomatedTester> ... and we don't want that network pressure on the cleint
16:34:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:34:55 <AutomatedTester> ack bwalderman
16:35:18 <AutomatedTester> bwalderman: filtering is still a good idea. What granularity do we want to subscribe to
16:36:40 <AutomatedTester> ... what is less clear. Do we want to filter at the level of just 1 target with z`console.error`? If yes, that's going to be interesting to setup
16:36:54 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:36:59 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:37:47 <jgraham> q+
16:38:07 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: One of the things that hasn't been covered as before. We had the ability to get logs from intermediary nodes and that is useful
16:38:08 <maja_zf> Intermediary node in what sense?
16:38:29 <jgraham> maja_zf: Middleware between the browser and the client
16:38:57 <simonstewart> https://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/#dfn-intermediary-nodes
16:39:33 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we should look at previous discussions to make sure we arent missing things
16:39:35 <AutomatedTester> q>
16:39:37 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:39:42 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:40:16 <gsnedders> jgraham: "not to spend time on this but…"
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16:40:34 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: as a consideration we should think about logging on intermediary nodes different to the bidfi work
16:42:14 <AutomatedTester> maja_zf: my other question is... there are not enough of the prerequistes to get this done. Is this discussion too premature?
16:42:14 <simonstewart> maja_zf: I've found some previous minutes about logging: https://www.w3.org/2017/11/10-webdriver-minutes.html#item01
16:42:33 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: We don't have enough infrqa in the spec yet
16:42:43 <simonstewart> And previous discussion: https://www.w3.org/2013/06/13-testing-minutes.html#item02
16:43:37 <AutomatedTester> ... and once we decide what is next and then we can go from there.
16:43:53 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:44:05 <AutomatedTester> topic: Sync on next work items
16:44:56 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Are there specific plans to work on over the next month. I am going to start looking at browsing context and realms
16:45:15 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:45:18 <bwalderman> q+
16:45:22 <AutomatedTester> ack bwalderman
16:46:09 <AutomatedTester> bwalderman: I won't be able to do much over hte next few weeks due to other commitments
16:48:03 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:48:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:48:28 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
16:48:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:48:36 <simonstewart> BTW, who here is also on the W3C Slack?
16:48:58 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: publish minutes
16:48:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:49:04 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: publish minutes v2
16:49:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/08/05-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:50:19 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: excuse us
16:50:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items