15:01:59 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:01:59 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-irc 15:02:02 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:02 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:02:13 present+ mike 15:03:01 Present+ Nigel, Pierre 15:03:07 scribe: nigel 15:03:26 Chair: Nigel, Gary 15:03:29 Present: Gary 15:04:14 webex is just spinning. I can hear you, but no mic and I sam still "Conecting..." 15:04:17 Present+ Andreas 15:04:52 I hear you just fine. i'll drop and retry 15:05:11 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html 15:05:20 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/132 15:05:29 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference. Agenda for 2020-07-30 1500 UTC meeting: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/132 15:06:29 atai has joined #tt 15:06:43 Topic: This meeting 15:07:14 Nigel: Today we have IMSC 1.2 transition request, TTML2 IR, and TPAC planning 15:07:19 .. None of them are big topics. 15:07:24 Present+ Atsushi 15:07:36 Nigel: Any other business, or points to make sure we cover? 15:08:28 .. I can summarise if anyone wants about the font fingerprinting TTML2 issue, in AOB. 15:08:51 group: [no other business] 15:09:02 Topic: IMSC 1.2 transition request 15:09:14 Nigel: Atsushi, thank you for raising the transition request 15:09:27 .. No objections in the AC review 15:09:38 .. The change feedback has already been addressed. 15:10:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/257 REC Request for TTML-IMSC 1.2 15:10:30 cyril has joined #tt 15:10:48 RRSAgent, pointer 15:10:48 See https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-irc#T15-10-48 15:10:59 Present+ Cyril 15:11:14 Nigel: One question on IMSC 1.2 Rec I think we have not answered yet is: 15:11:25 .. Obsolete IMSC 1.1 or leave as a Rec also? 15:12:22 Pierre: I think IMSC 1.1 remains in active use and should not be obsoleted with 1.2. 15:12:26 Nigel: I think that's right. 15:12:46 Atsushi: Obsolete or superseded means that in e.g. IMSC 1.1 will be marked as inactive 15:12:54 .. by IMSC 1.2, but I think that is not the case for this time. 15:13:09 Nigel: Sounds like we're all in agreement. Any counter-views? 15:13:13 group: [silence] 15:13:42 Mike: Not a counter-view, but a question. 1.0.1 remains in use and people are referencing 15:14:43 .. it. What are you proposing with IMSC 1.1? 15:14:55 Nigel: Not proposing anything, just checking in since we didn't discuss it. 15:15:08 .. This is the easiest time to obsolete the previous version, but I don't believe we want to. 15:15:21 .. Thought I should check in and confirm my understanding/expectation. 15:15:26 Mike: I understand, thank you. 15:15:55 RESOLUTION: On publishing IMSC 1.2 do not obsolete or supersede any previous version. 15:16:18 Nigel: Just for clarity, we don't need a Resolution to request transition to Rec because it 15:16:22 .. is not for us to do. 15:16:34 Atsushi: That's right. If we don't decide to do anything we will have 3 active IMSC specifications. 15:17:04 Nigel: Good, I notice that Pierre has already prepared the Pull Request for Rec, thank you, 15:17:13 .. and Atsushi and I have already approved it. 15:17:22 .. It may need a tweak to the date, which can be done later easily. 15:17:47 .. Any other points on transition to Rec? 15:17:51 Atsushi: No, not from me. 15:18:03 Topic: ARIB liaison response 15:18:15 Nigel: No progress from me after discussion previously. 15:18:27 .. I did think about how to work on this in a private space, and the only option I am 15:18:41 .. aware of is the member-tt reflector, which doesn't feel like a great way to iterate over 15:18:47 .. a document. Any other ideas? 15:19:06 Pierre: What about creating a google doc and just sharing the link on member-tt? 15:19:13 Nigel: Yes, that'd work! 15:19:28 +1 15:20:24 Nigel: OK, fine, will do. 15:20:33 Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition 15:20:49 Nigel: Glenn has made some updates recently, indicating one passing implementation 15:20:56 .. for many of the tests, but not yet all of them. 15:21:08 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport TTML2 Implementation Report 15:21:40 Nigel: I don't know of anyone planning a second implementation for these tests at the 15:21:59 .. current time. We may find ourselves in CR for a long time, if nobody steps forward. 15:23:00 Cyril: I checked the exit criteria again. I wasn't clear if we need a validation or presentation 15:23:13 .. or both. I read that at least two implementations must support each changed feature. 15:23:20 .. So it doesn't matter if it is presentation or validation? 15:23:22 Nigel: Right 15:24:01 Pierre: The IR is up to date? 15:24:06 Nigel: I believe so 15:24:24 Pierre: It doesn't look so great. None of those are at risk, right? 15:24:29 Cyril: We have nothing at risk at the moment. 15:25:00 Nigel: I don't think we added any new features in 2nd Ed, as such. 15:25:19 .. So we maybe need to consider exactly what we think is needed for CR exit a bit more 15:25:22 .. more carefully. 15:26:05 Pierre: For instance, all the presentation tests are clarifications, not new features? 15:26:16 Nigel: Arguably audio-in-body is a new feature. 15:26:23 Pierre: For that we do have an implementation. 15:26:29 .. I'm looking at all the other ones. 15:26:53 .. We should try to make sure the page reflects reality. If these are not new features and 15:27:10 .. are just clarifications... In IMSC, we've added tests with clarifications without necessarily 15:27:21 .. having a new round of the IR. Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on ourselves! 15:27:39 Nigel: I have sympathy with this, and will try to assess each test and its related change 15:27:58 .. a little more carefully. Counting against that in my view, the spec should reflect implementation 15:28:03 .. reality generally where possible. 15:29:44 Nigel: My understanding is that Glenn plans to get around to adding code to TTT to 15:29:48 .. pass the remaining tests. 15:30:02 Pierre: Also, and we've discussed this before, where one is an open source implementation, 15:30:19 .. where one is a reference, it is a lot less important that there are 2 independent 15:30:21 .. implementations. 15:30:25 Nigel: I remain unsure about that! 15:30:49 Topic: TTML2 Font fingerprinting privacy issue (summary) 15:31:12 Nigel: The minutes are already sent out from Monday's meeting. 15:31:25 .. In essence, we should try to get as close to the request as we can, and make the 15:31:30 .. transition request when we're ready. 15:31:58 .. My understanding is that this will be considered a reasonable approach. 15:35:39 q+ atai 15:35:56 ack at 15:38:30 group: [requests non-scribed discussion] 15:44:39 (hesitate for comment...) 15:51:26 s/(hesitate for comment...)// 15:52:01 Pierre: Is there a deadline for submitting the pull request? 15:52:05 Nigel: It's our timescale. 15:52:16 Pierre: We ought to let Sam review it in a bounded timeframe. 15:52:51 Nigel: My view is that we treat this like any other pull request, merge, proceed, and tell 15:52:56 .. Sam about it when it's done. 15:53:02 Pierre: Thanks, that answers my question. 15:53:19 Topic: Virtual TPAC 2020 planning 15:53:33 Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making requests for joint meetings with MEIG + Media WG, 15:53:43 .. and CSS WG. 15:54:17 Atsushi: I'm waiting for their reply. If we have any preference on day, e.g. Monday/Tuesday, 15:54:24 .. it may be possible to propose something to them just for that. 15:54:58 Nigel: Can I ask you to send a reminder to TTWG please, summarising the virtual TPAC 15:55:02 .. timelines and dates etc? 15:55:07 Atsushi: Yes, I will send that. 15:55:45 Nigel: I think we have specific topics for MEIG and Media WG, but not for CSS. 15:56:01 .. Please could I ask you all to think about which CSS issues need joint discussion? 15:56:14 atai1 has joined #tt 15:56:17 .. By the way. CSS WG is having a virtual f2f this week, and immediately before this call 15:56:29 .. I joined, because there was one scheduled TTML issue on the agenda, which is the 15:56:48 .. name of the fillLineGap-equivalent property. That discussion did not conclude yet. 15:57:43 -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5189 [css-inline] inline-sizing property name is too similar to inline-size w3c/csswg-drafts#5189 15:58:31 Nigel: Possibly the shear issues for example need more discussion between us and CSS WG? 15:58:57 Cyril: It depends on how the shear issue evolves until TPAC. 15:59:03 Nigel: Fair enough! 15:59:09 Cyril: Is CSS WG working on overhang also? 15:59:12 Nigel: I don't know. 15:59:26 Cyril: I think that was one issue they wanted to work on at some point, maybe deferred until the next version. 15:59:39 Pierre: What's the best way to work with CSS? If we need changes in CSS we need a concerted 15:59:46 .. effort. Is this the right time to do it? 16:00:09 Cyril: I can just repeat what I said on the email thread. 16:00:20 .. Several ways to work with CSS WG. Japanese subtitles are my main concern. 16:00:35 .. Either go through Japanese Layout TF, who are focused on print, and harder to convince 16:00:42 .. on subtitles-related issues. 16:00:59 .. I'd rather persuade CSS WG directly that is is important, keeping JL TF in the loop. 16:01:16 .. Best way is to get the feature implemented in browsers I think, then they will talk in CSS WG 16:01:19 .. about the best way to do it. 16:01:42 Atsushi: Not for me, but just my personal feeling. This conversation includes CSS WG and 16:01:59 .. browser vendors like Kojii-san and Florian. But there are many other issues to be resolved 16:02:12 .. earlier. So it's just about how important it is for prioritising against other issues. 16:02:30 s/.. earlier. So it's just about how important it is for prioritising against other issues.// 16:02:36 s/.. browser vendors like Kojii-san and Florian. But there are many other issues to be resolved// 16:02:42 s/Atsushi: Not for me, but just my personal feeling. This conversation includes CSS WG and// 16:05:13 Pierre: It's important that subtitling community people are included in prioritisation discussions about styling that affects subtitles. 16:10:37 Atsushi: There is a lot of work to do, and many complex interactions across other CSS properties, e.g. tate chu yoko and oblique together. 16:11:08 .. Even for now, applying underline to Japanese in horizontal writing mode is quite complex. 16:11:40 .. For a wider variety of decoration, a question for JL TF and CSS WG is all the permutations that 16:11:45 .. should be supported and their behaviours. 16:12:05 .. For now Chrome's implementation allows tate chu yoko to be expanded to 1.1em, but 16:12:30 .. that could conflict with several decoration styles, so if we can consider all of these illegal 16:12:50 .. combinations it might be possible to go forward. But it is quite difficult to cover them all. 16:12:56 s/illegal/legal (illegal?) 16:13:26 .. For manual typesetting editors will coordinate everything but for CSS we need the capability 16:13:39 .. for all the decorations. All of these special cases need to be considered for the specification. 16:13:56 .. That is the question actually, and which ones may not be needed for timed text or subtitles. 16:14:21 Topic: Meeting Close 16:14:35 Nigel: Apologies for going over time, very stimulating discussions. [adjourns meeting] 16:14:55 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:14:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:17:53 Present+ Mike 16:18:04 Present+ Nigel 16:18:14 s/webex is just spinning. I can hear you, but no mic and I sam still "Conecting..."// 16:18:21 s/I hear you just fine. i'll drop and retry// 16:18:25 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:18:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:20:06 s/discussions./discussions. Thank you! 16:20:16 Present+ Pierre 16:20:19 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:20:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:20:51 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:20:55 zakim, end meeting 16:20:55 As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Andreas, Atsushi, Cyril, Mike, Nigel, Pierre 16:20:57 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:20:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:21:00 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:21:04 Zakim has left #tt 16:21:59 rrsagent, excuse us 16:21:59 I see no action items