IRC log of tt on 2020-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tt
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-irc
15:02:02 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:02:13 [mike]
present+ mike
15:03:01 [nigel]
Present+ Nigel, Pierre
15:03:07 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:03:26 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel, Gary
15:03:29 [nigel]
Present: Gary
15:04:14 [mike]
webex is just spinning. I can hear you, but no mic and I sam still "Conecting..."
15:04:17 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:04:52 [mike]
I hear you just fine. i'll drop and retry
15:05:11 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html
15:05:20 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/132
15:05:29 [nigel]
nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference. Agenda for 2020-07-30 1500 UTC meeting: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/132
15:06:29 [atai]
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15:06:43 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:07:14 [nigel]
Nigel: Today we have IMSC 1.2 transition request, TTML2 IR, and TPAC planning
15:07:19 [nigel]
.. None of them are big topics.
15:07:24 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:07:36 [nigel]
Nigel: Any other business, or points to make sure we cover?
15:08:28 [nigel]
.. I can summarise if anyone wants about the font fingerprinting TTML2 issue, in AOB.
15:08:51 [nigel]
group: [no other business]
15:09:02 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.2 transition request
15:09:14 [nigel]
Nigel: Atsushi, thank you for raising the transition request
15:09:27 [nigel]
.. No objections in the AC review
15:09:38 [nigel]
.. The change feedback has already been addressed.
15:10:24 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/257 REC Request for TTML-IMSC 1.2
15:10:30 [cyril]
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15:10:48 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
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See https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-irc#T15-10-48
15:10:59 [nigel]
Present+ Cyril
15:11:14 [nigel]
Nigel: One question on IMSC 1.2 Rec I think we have not answered yet is:
15:11:25 [nigel]
.. Obsolete IMSC 1.1 or leave as a Rec also?
15:12:22 [nigel]
Pierre: I think IMSC 1.1 remains in active use and should not be obsoleted with 1.2.
15:12:26 [nigel]
Nigel: I think that's right.
15:12:46 [nigel]
Atsushi: Obsolete or superseded means that in e.g. IMSC 1.1 will be marked as inactive
15:12:54 [nigel]
.. by IMSC 1.2, but I think that is not the case for this time.
15:13:09 [nigel]
Nigel: Sounds like we're all in agreement. Any counter-views?
15:13:13 [nigel]
group: [silence]
15:13:42 [nigel]
Mike: Not a counter-view, but a question. 1.0.1 remains in use and people are referencing
15:14:43 [nigel]
.. it. What are you proposing with IMSC 1.1?
15:14:55 [nigel]
Nigel: Not proposing anything, just checking in since we didn't discuss it.
15:15:08 [nigel]
.. This is the easiest time to obsolete the previous version, but I don't believe we want to.
15:15:21 [nigel]
.. Thought I should check in and confirm my understanding/expectation.
15:15:26 [nigel]
Mike: I understand, thank you.
15:15:55 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: On publishing IMSC 1.2 do not obsolete or supersede any previous version.
15:16:18 [nigel]
Nigel: Just for clarity, we don't need a Resolution to request transition to Rec because it
15:16:22 [nigel]
.. is not for us to do.
15:16:34 [nigel]
Atsushi: That's right. If we don't decide to do anything we will have 3 active IMSC specifications.
15:17:04 [nigel]
Nigel: Good, I notice that Pierre has already prepared the Pull Request for Rec, thank you,
15:17:13 [nigel]
.. and Atsushi and I have already approved it.
15:17:22 [nigel]
.. It may need a tweak to the date, which can be done later easily.
15:17:47 [nigel]
.. Any other points on transition to Rec?
15:17:51 [nigel]
Atsushi: No, not from me.
15:18:03 [nigel]
Topic: ARIB liaison response
15:18:15 [nigel]
Nigel: No progress from me after discussion previously.
15:18:27 [nigel]
.. I did think about how to work on this in a private space, and the only option I am
15:18:41 [nigel]
.. aware of is the member-tt reflector, which doesn't feel like a great way to iterate over
15:18:47 [nigel]
.. a document. Any other ideas?
15:19:06 [nigel]
Pierre: What about creating a google doc and just sharing the link on member-tt?
15:19:13 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes, that'd work!
15:19:28 [atsushi]
+1
15:20:24 [nigel]
Nigel: OK, fine, will do.
15:20:33 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition
15:20:49 [nigel]
Nigel: Glenn has made some updates recently, indicating one passing implementation
15:20:56 [nigel]
.. for many of the tests, but not yet all of them.
15:21:08 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport TTML2 Implementation Report
15:21:40 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't know of anyone planning a second implementation for these tests at the
15:21:59 [nigel]
.. current time. We may find ourselves in CR for a long time, if nobody steps forward.
15:23:00 [nigel]
Cyril: I checked the exit criteria again. I wasn't clear if we need a validation or presentation
15:23:13 [nigel]
.. or both. I read that at least two implementations must support each changed feature.
15:23:20 [nigel]
.. So it doesn't matter if it is presentation or validation?
15:23:22 [nigel]
Nigel: Right
15:24:01 [nigel]
Pierre: The IR is up to date?
15:24:06 [nigel]
Nigel: I believe so
15:24:24 [nigel]
Pierre: It doesn't look so great. None of those are at risk, right?
15:24:29 [nigel]
Cyril: We have nothing at risk at the moment.
15:25:00 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't think we added any new features in 2nd Ed, as such.
15:25:19 [nigel]
.. So we maybe need to consider exactly what we think is needed for CR exit a bit more
15:25:22 [nigel]
.. more carefully.
15:26:05 [nigel]
Pierre: For instance, all the presentation tests are clarifications, not new features?
15:26:16 [nigel]
Nigel: Arguably audio-in-body is a new feature.
15:26:23 [nigel]
Pierre: For that we do have an implementation.
15:26:29 [nigel]
.. I'm looking at all the other ones.
15:26:53 [nigel]
.. We should try to make sure the page reflects reality. If these are not new features and
15:27:10 [nigel]
.. are just clarifications... In IMSC, we've added tests with clarifications without necessarily
15:27:21 [nigel]
.. having a new round of the IR. Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on ourselves!
15:27:39 [nigel]
Nigel: I have sympathy with this, and will try to assess each test and its related change
15:27:58 [nigel]
.. a little more carefully. Counting against that in my view, the spec should reflect implementation
15:28:03 [nigel]
.. reality generally where possible.
15:29:44 [nigel]
Nigel: My understanding is that Glenn plans to get around to adding code to TTT to
15:29:48 [nigel]
.. pass the remaining tests.
15:30:02 [nigel]
Pierre: Also, and we've discussed this before, where one is an open source implementation,
15:30:19 [nigel]
.. where one is a reference, it is a lot less important that there are 2 independent
15:30:21 [nigel]
.. implementations.
15:30:25 [nigel]
Nigel: I remain unsure about that!
15:30:49 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 Font fingerprinting privacy issue (summary)
15:31:12 [nigel]
Nigel: The minutes are already sent out from Monday's meeting.
15:31:25 [nigel]
.. In essence, we should try to get as close to the request as we can, and make the
15:31:30 [nigel]
.. transition request when we're ready.
15:31:58 [nigel]
.. My understanding is that this will be considered a reasonable approach.
15:35:39 [nigel]
q+ atai
15:35:56 [nigel]
ack at
15:38:30 [nigel]
group: [requests non-scribed discussion]
15:44:39 [atsushi]
(hesitate for comment...)
15:51:26 [nigel]
s/(hesitate for comment...)//
15:52:01 [nigel]
Pierre: Is there a deadline for submitting the pull request?
15:52:05 [nigel]
Nigel: It's our timescale.
15:52:16 [nigel]
Pierre: We ought to let Sam review it in a bounded timeframe.
15:52:51 [nigel]
Nigel: My view is that we treat this like any other pull request, merge, proceed, and tell
15:52:56 [nigel]
.. Sam about it when it's done.
15:53:02 [nigel]
Pierre: Thanks, that answers my question.
15:53:19 [nigel]
Topic: Virtual TPAC 2020 planning
15:53:33 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making requests for joint meetings with MEIG + Media WG,
15:53:43 [nigel]
.. and CSS WG.
15:54:17 [nigel]
Atsushi: I'm waiting for their reply. If we have any preference on day, e.g. Monday/Tuesday,
15:54:24 [nigel]
.. it may be possible to propose something to them just for that.
15:54:58 [nigel]
Nigel: Can I ask you to send a reminder to TTWG please, summarising the virtual TPAC
15:55:02 [nigel]
.. timelines and dates etc?
15:55:07 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, I will send that.
15:55:45 [nigel]
Nigel: I think we have specific topics for MEIG and Media WG, but not for CSS.
15:56:01 [nigel]
.. Please could I ask you all to think about which CSS issues need joint discussion?
15:56:14 [atai1]
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15:56:17 [nigel]
.. By the way. CSS WG is having a virtual f2f this week, and immediately before this call
15:56:29 [nigel]
.. I joined, because there was one scheduled TTML issue on the agenda, which is the
15:56:48 [nigel]
.. name of the fillLineGap-equivalent property. That discussion did not conclude yet.
15:57:43 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5189 [css-inline] inline-sizing property name is too similar to inline-size w3c/csswg-drafts#5189
15:58:31 [nigel]
Nigel: Possibly the shear issues for example need more discussion between us and CSS WG?
15:58:57 [nigel]
Cyril: It depends on how the shear issue evolves until TPAC.
15:59:03 [nigel]
Nigel: Fair enough!
15:59:09 [nigel]
Cyril: Is CSS WG working on overhang also?
15:59:12 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't know.
15:59:26 [nigel]
Cyril: I think that was one issue they wanted to work on at some point, maybe deferred until the next version.
15:59:39 [nigel]
Pierre: What's the best way to work with CSS? If we need changes in CSS we need a concerted
15:59:46 [nigel]
.. effort. Is this the right time to do it?
16:00:09 [nigel]
Cyril: I can just repeat what I said on the email thread.
16:00:20 [nigel]
.. Several ways to work with CSS WG. Japanese subtitles are my main concern.
16:00:35 [nigel]
.. Either go through Japanese Layout TF, who are focused on print, and harder to convince
16:00:42 [nigel]
.. on subtitles-related issues.
16:00:59 [nigel]
.. I'd rather persuade CSS WG directly that is is important, keeping JL TF in the loop.
16:01:16 [nigel]
.. Best way is to get the feature implemented in browsers I think, then they will talk in CSS WG
16:01:19 [nigel]
.. about the best way to do it.
16:01:42 [nigel]
Atsushi: Not for me, but just my personal feeling. This conversation includes CSS WG and
16:01:59 [nigel]
.. browser vendors like Kojii-san and Florian. But there are many other issues to be resolved
16:02:12 [nigel]
.. earlier. So it's just about how important it is for prioritising against other issues.
16:02:30 [nigel]
s/.. earlier. So it's just about how important it is for prioritising against other issues.//
16:02:36 [nigel]
s/.. browser vendors like Kojii-san and Florian. But there are many other issues to be resolved//
16:02:42 [nigel]
s/Atsushi: Not for me, but just my personal feeling. This conversation includes CSS WG and//
16:05:13 [nigel]
Pierre: It's important that subtitling community people are included in prioritisation discussions about styling that affects subtitles.
16:10:37 [nigel]
Atsushi: There is a lot of work to do, and many complex interactions across other CSS properties, e.g. tate chu yoko and oblique together.
16:11:08 [nigel]
.. Even for now, applying underline to Japanese in horizontal writing mode is quite complex.
16:11:40 [nigel]
.. For a wider variety of decoration, a question for JL TF and CSS WG is all the permutations that
16:11:45 [nigel]
.. should be supported and their behaviours.
16:12:05 [nigel]
.. For now Chrome's implementation allows tate chu yoko to be expanded to 1.1em, but
16:12:30 [nigel]
.. that could conflict with several decoration styles, so if we can consider all of these illegal
16:12:50 [nigel]
.. combinations it might be possible to go forward. But it is quite difficult to cover them all.
16:12:56 [nigel]
s/illegal/legal (illegal?)
16:13:26 [nigel]
.. For manual typesetting editors will coordinate everything but for CSS we need the capability
16:13:39 [nigel]
.. for all the decorations. All of these special cases need to be considered for the specification.
16:13:56 [nigel]
.. That is the question actually, and which ones may not be needed for timed text or subtitles.
16:14:21 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting Close
16:14:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Apologies for going over time, very stimulating discussions. [adjourns meeting]
16:14:55 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:14:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:17:53 [nigel]
Present+ Mike
16:18:04 [nigel]
Present+ Nigel
16:18:14 [nigel]
s/webex is just spinning. I can hear you, but no mic and I sam still "Conecting..."//
16:18:21 [nigel]
s/I hear you just fine. i'll drop and retry//
16:18:25 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:18:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:20:06 [nigel]
s/discussions./discussions. Thank you!
16:20:16 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
16:20:19 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:20:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:20:51 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:20:55 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:20:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Andreas, Atsushi, Cyril, Mike, Nigel, Pierre
16:20:57 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:20:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:21:00 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:21:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:21:59 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:21:59 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items