18:59:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web
18:59:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-immersive-web-irc
18:59:16 <Leonardo> Leonardo has joined #immersive-web
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19:00:32 <kip> present+
19:00:33 <cabanier> present+
19:00:53 <Leonardo> present+
19:01:25 <cwilso> present+
19:01:28 <Manishearth> present+
19:01:41 <cwilso> present+ bajones
19:01:45 <yonet> yonet has joined #immersive-web
19:01:57 <cwilso> present+ atsushi
19:02:09 <cwilso> present+ yonet
19:02:58 <bialpio> bialpio has joined #immersive-web
19:03:20 <ada> I am running a little late
19:03:40 <ada> can someone paste the URL for the call here?
19:03:57 <dino> dino has joined #immersive-web
19:04:00 <ada> nevermind naseemshah isn't online right now
19:05:46 <bajones> I'll look at it ASAP!
19:05:56 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/cg/2020-07-28-Immersive_Web_Community_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:06:03 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive Web Community Group Teleconference
19:06:14 <atsushi> date: 28 July 2020
19:06:22 <atsushi> zakim, clear agenda
19:06:22 <Zakim> agenda cleared
19:06:23 <yonet> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/cg/2020-07-28-Immersive_Web_Community_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:06:44 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr-hand-input#32 Allow caching of XRJointPoses [Manishearth]
19:07:04 <atsushi> agenda+ anchors#55 Should move discussion and API for "creating anchor from hitTestResult" to hit-test API [avadacatavra]
19:07:09 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 1
19:07:09 <Zakim> agendum 1. "webxr-hand-input#32 Allow caching of XRJointPoses" taken up [from Manishearth via atsushi]
19:07:14 <avadacatavra> avadacatavra has joined #immersive-web
19:07:14 <Leonardo> scribe Leonard0
19:07:17 <Leonardo> scribe Leonardo
19:07:36 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
19:07:42 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:07:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:07:50 <Leonardo> Manish: not cache poses (XR & XRViewer) because some content may break
19:07:59 <Leonardo> ... https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/cg/2020-07-28-Immersive_Web_Community_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:08:43 <Leonardo> ... Hand has ~25 joints/hand which could overwhelm the system that needs to created & destroyed every frame
19:09:13 <bajones> q+
19:09:16 <Leonardo> ... Rik propose allows browsers to cache XR joint poses to reduce load
19:09:40 <Leonardo> ... This would come with the warning that the objects may or may not stay around
19:09:41 <Manishearth> q?
19:09:42 <yonet> q?
19:09:47 <cabanier> q+
19:09:50 <RafaelCintron> RafaelCintron has joined #immersive-web
19:09:56 <yonet> ack brandon
19:10:00 <alexturn_> alexturn_ has joined #immersive-web
19:10:02 <alexturn_> present+
19:10:03 <alexturn_> q+
19:10:06 <Manishearth> ack ba
19:10:13 <Leonardo> Brandon: Agrees, but like Manish, not very happy.
19:10:46 <Leonardo> ... 2 other interact with cache and not always with consistent settings
19:11:48 <Leonardo> ... Possibility of comparing the frame N & N+1 may cause some problems with "measured" velocity
19:12:17 <Manishearth> q+
19:12:25 <bialpio> q+
19:12:53 <Manishearth> q-
19:13:09 <Leonardo> Manish: Some conditions are not related to real movements
19:13:16 <yonet> ack cabanier
19:13:50 <Leonardo> Rik: Some things change nothing to very little over time.
19:14:29 <bajones> q+ to also ask about consolidating volumes of pose queries to a single call
19:14:44 <Leonardo> Alex: Share concern that semantics are changing. Hand joints are "medium" data. Meshes are "large" data.
19:15:32 <yonet> q?
19:15:38 <Leonardo> ... Joint comparison may fail because of UA differences. Want it either every frame or all frames, nothing in-between
19:15:43 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:16:14 <dino> q+
19:16:15 <Leonardo> ... However, it may not work through multiple (other) APIs
19:16:23 <yonet> bialpio
19:16:32 <yonet> ack bialpio
19:16:38 <Manishearth> q+
19:17:26 <Leonardo> Bialpio: Can the caching state be signaled through API state? Need to be concerned with timing or values
19:17:47 <yonet> ack bajones
19:17:47 <Zakim> bajones, you wanted to also ask about consolidating volumes of pose queries to a single call
19:18:02 <alexturn_> q+
19:18:11 <yonet> q?
19:18:12 <dino> q-
19:18:57 <Leonardo> Brandon: Likes signaling. Getting hand poses causes some internal delays (Runtime to native interface).
19:19:43 <Leonardo> ... Suggests a means for getting a list of poses and output a predetermined data structure
19:20:05 <ada> q+ to like that idea
19:20:06 <yonet> ack manishearth
19:21:27 <Leonardo> Manish: Agrees with Brandon. OpenXR aligns with Brandon's suggestion - returns a struct with all hand-joints
19:21:37 <Leonardo> ... works on shared structure that gets reused
19:21:47 <yonet> ack alex_
19:21:50 <yonet> q?
19:22:32 <Leonardo> Alex: OpenXR did a constant check against use cases and "actual" code. Engines preferred to use bulk data structure
19:22:46 <Manishearth> q+
19:22:55 <Manishearth> ack alex
19:23:01 <Leonardo> ... though, acknowledged that it was cumbersome for people developers
19:23:50 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:24:12 <Leonardo> ... More likely use WebXR over OpenXR, but still could use bulk
19:25:22 <Leonardo> Ada: [lots of background noise - missed most of this]
19:25:25 <yonet> ack Manishearth
19:25:46 <alexturn_> q+
19:26:12 <yonet> ack ada
19:26:12 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to like that idea
19:26:16 <Leonardo> Manish: JavaScript can do most everything that can be done through OpenXR -- the APIs can be similar
19:26:41 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:27:20 <Leonardo> Alex: Wants to consider UAs returning subsets of joints. Does not want to limit innovation
19:27:24 <Leonardo> q+
19:27:52 <ada> sorry about my noisy mic: I was suggesting that by having a split API it would enable the high perf use case of using the buffer to enable displaying the hand model but also allow developers to query individual joints in a way they would expect for things like physics or interactions.
19:28:42 <Leonardo> ... use extra or removed joints. You get everything or nothing. Some joints may be marked as unavailable or emulated
19:29:14 <yonet> ack Leonardo
19:29:36 <Manishearth> Leonardo: would any of these decisions have a bad impact on someone who is disabled
19:29:38 <alexturn_> q+
19:29:40 <bajones> q+
19:29:45 <yonet> q?
19:29:48 <Manishearth> ... or has attachments or something that would make them not fit the humanoid model
19:29:51 <Manishearth> q+
19:29:52 <Leonardo> Leonardo: Would any suggestions compromise use for disabled or
19:30:05 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:30:57 <Leonardo> Alex: Has thought through some level of accessibility. Level of API should be separate from user abstraction -- that would be the UA job
19:31:11 <yonet> ack bajones
19:31:36 <Leonardo> Brandon: Alex covered most issues. Similar conversations about accessibility: Can provide data for website
19:32:24 <Leonardo> ... to do the right thing; however, websites may not choose to do so (ignore accessibility)
19:32:51 <Manishearth> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-hand-input/issues/11
19:32:55 <Leonardo> ... Probably allow UA to be configured to allow a user to specifically configure their own environment
19:33:15 <yonet> ack Manishearth
19:33:18 <Leonardo> Manish: (See link above). No specific answers. 2 concerns:
19:33:51 <Leonardo> ... 1: Application should be written so they can get a hand representation according to user's desire
19:34:10 <alexturn_> q+
19:34:19 <Leonardo> ... 2: Gesture apps should have fall-back gestures (missing digits, etc.)
19:34:40 <yonet> q?
19:35:04 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:35:27 <Leonardo> Alex: Caution to wait before going beyond core. Native side may have further divergence. Believe APIs should be
19:36:02 <Leonardo> ... base-level agreement. Only go beyond when requested and/or needed.
19:36:22 <Manishearth> q+
19:36:32 <Leonardo> ... Allow the API to return the "standard" actions, but "enlightened" apps could access the details
19:36:50 <yonet> ack Manishearth
19:37:28 <alexturn_> q+
19:37:34 <Leonardo> Manish: Agrees with Alex
19:37:41 <yonet> ack alexturn_
19:38:21 <Leonardo> Alex: Double-check with Rik. Wants to make sure that unneeded legacy is not carried forward
19:38:37 <Leonardo> Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/anchors/issues/55
19:38:54 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 2
19:38:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "anchors#55 Should move discussion and API for "creating anchor from hitTestResult" to hit-test API" taken up [from avadacatavra via atsushi]
19:38:55 <bialpio> q+
19:39:01 <Leonardo> Diane: Anchor depends on Hit-Test (APIs)
19:39:03 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:39:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:39:49 <Leonardo> ... Move from Anchor to Hit-Test explainer so that Anchor is stand-alone and Hit-Test contains all dependencies
19:39:56 <yonet> q?
19:40:46 <Leonardo> Piotr (Bialpio): Concerned that Hit-Test is marked as release. If Anchor is moved, then a clarification would be needed
19:40:48 <atsushi> s|Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/anchors/issues/55||
19:40:51 <yonet> ack bialpio
19:41:00 <avadacatavra> q+
19:41:03 <Leonardo> ... Like to delay move until Anchor and HT are at same level of maturity
19:41:17 <yonet> ack avadacatavra
19:41:18 <bajones> q+
19:42:06 <Leonardo> Diane: Asking of level of maturity of Anchors. Doesn't want to go forward until the change is moved
19:42:07 <atsushi> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/06/16-immersive-web-minutes.html
19:42:17 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:42:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:42:29 <alexturn_> q+
19:42:30 <Leonardo> Piotr: Anchors go out in V85 (stable in about a month - 25 Aug)
19:42:35 <yonet> ack bajones
19:43:25 <Leonardo> Brandon: This scenario probably going to be encountered more frequently.
19:43:48 <alexturn_> q-
19:43:49 <Leonardo> ... Probably benefit WG figuring out how to handle the general case for the future
19:44:28 <Leonardo> Aysegul: Continue discussion on GitHub.
19:44:45 <atsushi> s/scribe Leonardo/scribe: Leonardo/
19:45:49 <Leonardo> Manish: Item for WG. Ada to handle
19:46:52 <atsushi> i/Leonardo: would any of these/scribenick: Manishearth/
19:47:10 <atsushi> i/Leonardo: Would any suggestions compromise/scribenick: Leonardo/
19:47:40 <atsushi> s/Piotr (Bialpio):/Piotr_(Bialpio):/
19:47:46 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes v2
19:47:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/28-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:48:34 <atsushi> rrsagent, bye
19:48:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items