15:00:16 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-irc 15:00:18 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:00:19 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:59 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference. Agenda for 2020-07-23 1500 UTC meeting: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/131 15:01:16 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/131 15:01:24 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/16-tt-minutes.html 15:01:28 scribe: nigel 15:01:38 Present: Nigel, Mike, Andreas, Gary 15:01:42 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:01:47 atai has joined #tt 15:02:19 Present+ Cyril 15:03:19 Topic: This meeting 15:03:47 mike has joined #tt 15:03:59 Nigel: Today we have IMSC 1.2 Liaison response, TTML2 bits and bobs, and TPAC 2020 planning. 15:04:05 .. Any other business, or points to make sure we cover? 15:04:23 group: [no other business] 15:04:30 Topic: IMSC 1.2 15:04:41 Regrets: Atsushi 15:05:03 Nigel: The AC Review is continuing, and I encourage everyone to make sure their AC rep 15:05:05 .. votes! 15:05:44 Topic: ARIB liaison response w3c/ttwg#116 15:05:58 Nigel: I've begun drafting! 15:11:53 .. [shares screen with early preview] 15:13:12 Nigel: Mike, I was wondering if your response on https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/547#issuecomment-640801013 15:13:33 .. is that to the question at https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/546#issuecomment-638954715 15:13:41 .. Since they're two different but related issues. 15:13:58 Mike: I don't think so, I'll research that right now. I think I sent a private comment not on 15:14:07 .. the GitHub issue. [checks] 15:14:35 Nigel: Ah, then there may be some extra information I may need to fold in. 15:15:08 Cyril: I wonder if there should be a sentence after the issue list, because I'm not sure, 15:15:20 .. reading quickly, in which direction this is going. What is the summary of their comment? 15:15:30 .. Should we say something like "some comments are accepted as is, others need more 15:15:33 .. information"? 15:15:38 Nigel: Good point. 15:18:28 Present+ Pierre 15:22:22 Cyril: [suggests adjustments to how we ask for usage information] 15:22:34 Mike: More information about the response I got about images just sent to the TT public reflector. 15:22:38 Nigel: Thanks for that. 15:25:20 .. The last point, about #550, I was slightly less clear about. 15:26:34 Cyril: Re GSUB, PUA and IVS, we said PUA may not be the best method because of 15:26:39 .. degradation not being graceful. 15:34:42 Nigel: We haven't discussed the "end game" of potential convergence between standards, 15:34:53 .. and if ARIB might one day want to adopt IMSC if it has the right feature set, but I think 15:35:24 .. our idea is to assess the differences and if we can come to a better understanding 15:35:29 .. before moving to that. 15:35:57 Mike: Shouldn't we find a polite way to suggest that they participate if they are interested 15:36:05 .. in convergence to a single standard? 15:36:19 Nigel: Interesting point, yes, I haven't considered that too much. 15:36:35 .. Any other views? 15:36:38 cyril has joined #tt 15:36:52 Mike: Or we could ask here if anyone wants to work on it without an ARIB person present. 15:37:18 Pierre: I think there are still unanswered questions in my mind on which we can make 15:37:33 .. progress without direct participation in TTWG. For example it would be good to hear 15:37:42 RRSAgent, pointer 15:37:42 See https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-irc#T15-37-42 15:37:54 .. their opinions on negative letter spacing, PUA, etc. 15:38:02 .. This is information exchange that might make IMSC better. 15:38:15 .. But yes, before asking about switching to IMSC, that is a bigger discussion that 15:38:22 .. really requires face to face or private discussions. 15:38:31 Mike: To the extent that we can make TTML2 and IMSC better and more palatable to the 15:38:44 .. Japanese TV market, that's goodness, but trying to orchestrate something larger and 15:38:54 .. addressing all these issues, I don't think we can make progress without active 15:39:05 .. participation of someone with a detailed knowledge, first hand. 15:39:19 Pierre: I would keep this liaison to the specific questions or seeking specific information. 15:39:42 .. At this point, PUA, IVS and negative letter spacing really come to mind. Examples are 15:39:44 .. really critical. 15:40:37 Nigel: I would keep the whole list rather than pruning it, I'm interested in audio certainly. 15:40:49 .. And animation might be a relatively easy thing to specify, based on TTML2. 15:41:02 Pierre: Maybe some of these questions arise when we get closer to alignment. 15:42:14 Mike: Maybe we should make it clear early in the message that we invite ARIB members 15:42:30 .. to participate in W3C, and to contact the Chair. If we got a good engineer we should 15:42:40 .. figure out how to let them participate, regardless of existing membership. 15:45:01 .. One other point: there's an English version version - did you get that? 15:45:12 Nigel: We did see a link to that in the past. 15:45:18 Mike: I could put a link across the reflector. 15:45:21 Nigel: No harm repeating it! 15:45:24 Mike: Will do. 15:45:42 Nigel: Thank you all very much for the input, that's helpful. I'll find a way to share this 15:45:48 .. in a private space for further review. 15:45:57 Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition 15:45:58 atai has left #tt 15:46:16 Nigel: You should have seen that we now have a date to discuss our PING issue, which is 15:46:28 .. Monday - there's an invitation and details on the member-tt reflector. 15:46:55 .. On the TTML2 Implementation Report, I saw some updates from Glenn, so some features 15:47:20 .. have an implementation. I am not aware of any other implementations yet, especially 15:47:25 .. for the validation functionality. 15:47:57 Topic: Virtual TPAC 2020 Planning 15:48:22 Nigel: The Chairs have been asked to plan for virtual joint meetings under the "virtual TPAC" 15:48:36 .. banner. So far I think we would like to talk to: 15:48:41 .. MEIG 15:48:44 .. WebMedia WG 15:48:47 .. CSS WG 15:49:01 .. Any others? Or should we try to merge MEIG and WebMedia WG for example? 15:49:37 Cyril: Is WebMedia WG the Media WG? I'm not sure there's a "Web" in front. 15:49:42 Nigel: Apologies, I got the name wrong. 15:49:47 Gary: Yes, it's just Media WG 15:49:55 Nigel: Thanks for the correction! 15:50:10 Cyril: I agree a 3 way meeting is probably better. 15:50:21 Gary: Yes unless there's something specific for one but not the other but I highly doubt it. 15:50:36 Nigel: I'm not aware of anything like that and I think a lot of the people are the same. 15:50:46 Gary: Definitely a large overlap between those three groups. 15:50:58 Cyril: What is the status of the Text Track v2 work, Pierre? 15:51:03 Gary: It's in Safari 15:51:12 Pierre: I don't know, but apparently it's in Safari! 15:51:20 Gary: I guess they shipped it as an experimental feature. 15:51:33 Pierre: I'm "pleasantly surprised"! [laughter] 15:51:46 .. I thought they would go down the path of HTML not a bespoke API. 15:51:51 .. Do you have a link to the announcement? 15:51:58 pal has joined #tt 15:52:06 -> https://webkit.org/blog/10247/new-webkit-features-in-safari-13-1/ safari 13.1 announcement 15:52:09 Gary: They mention this is available in the Safari 13.1 announcement 15:52:21 .. That links to an explainer that apparently no longer exists. 15:52:43 .. They renamed the branch name. Here's the explainer: 15:52:45 -> https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/main/texttracks texttrack explainer link 15:53:11 .. You provide a specially formatted HTML fragment. That's available as an experimental 15:53:16 .. feature in Safari. 15:53:28 Pierre: It's not the original idea of having an API specific to timed text, it's a more generic 15:53:57 .. HTML based approach. 7 years ago this was my original feedback, why not allow 15:54:08 .. general HTML to be rendered. They said "security issues..." but maybe they've 15:54:13 .. decided that it is okay. 15:54:17 .. Thanks for pointing that out! 15:54:27 Nigel: I'm super excited to read about this. 15:54:34 Pierre: My name is everywhere here, too! 15:54:47 Gary: I noticed because we had a bug in video.js for captions and spotted the announcements. 15:55:08 Pierre: On a side note, I guess this is webkit so if I was subscribed to webkit GitHub I would 15:55:11 .. get those announcements. 15:55:16 Gary: I subscribed to the webkit blog. 15:55:25 Pierre: Okay. thanks a lot for pointing that out. 15:55:39 .. I guess from an IMSC perspective what it really does is... 15:55:54 .. We still have to handle client side conversion of TTML to HTML but all the timing 15:55:59 .. is handled by this. 15:56:12 Gary: Yes, it sounds like there are a couple of special attributes to specify the cue part 15:56:19 .. and the cue background, but otherwise it's HTML. 15:56:33 Pierre: I get it, so they followed the TTML model but as HTML, a subset that you can use 15:56:42 .. that happens to be [scribe missed] 15:57:11 .. The explainer is 6 months old! 15:57:19 Gary: Yes, I believe this shipped in mid-March. 15:57:29 Cyril: Do you know if other browsers are adopting it? 15:57:36 .. It leads to nowhere if it is only in Safari. 15:58:05 Gary: Yes, I think Google is the one that needs convincing. 15:58:25 Pierre: My recollection (7 years old, maybe exaggerated) was this idea of passing HTML 15:58:37 .. to a cue was a terrible idea from a browser perspective, but if the model were constrained 15:58:40 .. that would make it easier. 15:58:46 Nigel: I remember the same thing. 15:58:54 Pierre: I will follow up with Eric and Tess offline. 15:59:06 Gary: I think because they limit the allowed elements it makes it relatively safe. 15:59:16 Pierre: Right, and even though the explainer doesn't say it, it could be that the 15:59:27 .. relationship between the elements may be further constrained. The early implementation 15:59:40 .. used JSON and enforced the TTML data model, like a p has to be within a div. 15:59:52 .. I wonder if they still enforce that, because if so, it further reduces the risk. 15:59:57 Gary: I'm not sure about that. 16:00:00 Pierre: It's not in the explainer. 16:00:26 Nigel: Back to the topic, there's an action for the Chairs and staff to arrange those meetings. 16:00:33 .. So far no other groups have been requested. 16:02:11 Nigel: As an aside, CSS WG has an upcoming "virtual f2f" which has an issue on the agenda 16:02:42 .. for considering the name of their equivalent of the fillLineGap property, and it's possible 16:02:55 .. they will revisit the background painting area property for linePadding too, and bring them 16:02:57 .. together. 16:03:10 -> XXXX CSS issue 16:03:30 Topic: Meeting close 16:03:57 Nigel: Thanks for the stimulating meeting everyone. Apologies we're 3 minutes over. [adjourns meeting] 16:11:29 s|XXXX|https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5189 16:11:59 s|CSS issue|[css-inline] inline-sizing property name is too similar to inline-size w3c/csswg-drafts#5189 16:12:05 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:12:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:16:08 s/IMSC 1.2 Liaison response/IMSC 1.2 ARIB Liaison response 16:18:54 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:18:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:19:12 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:19:19 zakim, end meeting 16:19:19 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Mike, Andreas, Gary, Cyril, Pierre 16:19:21 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:19:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:19:24 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:19:28 Zakim has left #tt 16:23:44 rrsagent, excuse us 16:23:44 I see no action items