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14:01:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:13 <Zakim> Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group
14:01:14 <cwilso> present+ florian
14:01:18 <cwilso> present+
14:01:19 <dsinger_> present+ dsinger
14:04:45 <jeff> present+
14:05:34 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #w3process
14:05:45 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
14:05:50 <plh> plh has joined #w3process
14:05:52 <tantek> tantek has joined #w3process
14:05:54 <plh> present+
14:06:03 <tantek> present+
14:06:21 <dsinger_> Proposed to close: <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/labels/P2021%3A%20Close>
14:06:22 <fantasai> Topic: Issues proposed to close
14:07:13 <fantasai> dsinger_: After long discussion, decided logistics were very difficult if some comments confidential and some not
14:07:23 <fantasai> dsinger_: so we closed 39, effectively same issue
14:07:44 <wseltzer> q+
14:07:47 <fantasai> plh: Propose to close. We do encourage AC to put comments in GH. But we don't require, also have WBS form.
14:08:09 <fantasai> tantek: What I don't understand, I thought this was kinda moving forward in practice
14:08:18 <fantasai> tantek: what plh said, more charter comments in public channels
14:08:30 <fantasai> tantek: Maybe this is a phrasing challenge rather than something that's impossible
14:08:35 <fantasai> tantek: Is there something we can salvage here?
14:09:00 <fantasai> florian: Unsure that's the case. At least chaals and maybe others, were against WBS to be public.
14:09:18 <fantasai> dsinger_: Didn't want to split across public, private, and GH channels. Too many channels.
14:09:29 <fantasai> wseltzer: Thought it was more useful to have a formal acknowledgement of what we're trying to do in practice.
14:09:45 <fantasai> wseltzer: Several members wanted to raise comments in GH, discuss them there, with WG members proposing charter updates.
14:09:52 <fantasai> wseltzer: Trying to find a practical way to acknowledge that.
14:10:00 <fantasai> florian: I would be in support, but we were deadlocked.
14:10:16 <fantasai> florian: I wouldn't mind making progress if we can
14:10:32 <fantasai> dsinger_: Team isn't prohibited from improving practice even if Process is not hcanged
14:10:49 <fantasai> tantek: Team isn't stopped from using public channel
14:11:00 <fantasai> dsinger_: Not prohibited from making public channel in addition
14:11:06 <fantasai> florian: ...
14:11:19 <fantasai> tantek: Seems we are doing some charter reviews in public in practice, I feel that must at least acknowledge that.
14:11:23 <fantasai> +1 from fantasai
14:11:33 <fantasai> tantek: Either there should be a concerted effort to stop that (which I would oppose)
14:11:47 <fantasai> tantek: or we should [? audio cuts out ?]
14:12:10 <fantasai> dsinger_: There's a private AC conversation in the formal ballot, and a public conversation that anyone can have in GH
14:12:15 <wseltzer> q+
14:12:18 <fantasai> dsinger_: Do we need to confuse with a public AC channel?
14:12:32 <fantasai> florian: This is about formal comment as an AC
14:12:35 <fantasai> florian: anyone can comment in GH
14:12:45 <fantasai> dsinger_: Any AC member can cite GH comments if they want
14:13:08 <plh> https://w3c.github.io/w3process/#ACReviewStart
14:13:14 <chaals1> chaals1 has joined #w3process
14:13:21 <fantasai> fantasai: Agree with Tantek, acknowledge in Process that public comment is possible.
14:13:37 <fantasai> tantek: One way to close issue is to acknowledge existing practice. Not open-ended issue.
14:13:46 <weiler> present+
14:13:50 <fantasai> tantek: Candidate for 2021
14:14:09 <fantasai> tantek: Proposed to scope specifically to what's already implemented by the Team, and consider that wording for 2021
14:14:16 <fantasai> dsinger_: Can you summarize and retag, please?
14:14:35 <fantasai> plh: One of the rationale for doing public channel is because vast majority of groups are working in public
14:14:43 <tantek> can we poll the proposal / resolve here first?
14:14:44 <fantasai> plh: If have to discuss comments with WG, needs to be public
14:14:57 <wseltzer> q-
14:15:48 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Update Process wording to acknowledge existing practice of allowing public comment (through GH), although this is not the official AC comment.
14:15:57 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/38
14:16:07 <fantasai> Topic: Issue 63
14:16:24 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/63
14:16:32 <fantasai> github: none
14:16:40 <fantasai> Topic: Good Standing
14:16:59 <wseltzer> +1 to close
14:17:11 <jeff> q+
14:17:38 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/76
14:17:47 <fantasai> fantasai: This is open in the AB. Shouldn't close.
14:18:03 <fantasai> fantasai: AB can discuss here if it wants. either way should tag to AB issue.
14:18:17 <fantasai> jeff: We're looking at Director-free.
14:18:28 <fantasai> jeff: Since related to overturning Director's decision, propose closing.
14:18:34 <dsinger_> ack jeff
14:18:43 <fantasai> tantek: I agree with Jeff's reasoning, if we do Director-free then this issue becomes irrelevant.
14:18:44 <wseltzer> +1 to close
14:19:45 <jeff> [I'm OK with that]
14:19:50 <fantasai> fantasai: When are we implementing Director-free? I don't think we should close it. Don't need to prioritize to P2021, but don't agree to close.
14:20:01 <fantasai> dsinger_: OK, retagging to director-free
14:20:44 <fantasai> Topic: transitions to Obsolete/Superseded
14:20:49 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/141
14:21:09 <fantasai> dsinger_: Waiting on Tantek for proposed wording, proposed to close otherwise...
14:21:13 <fantasai> dsinger_: tantek is on the call today :)
14:21:24 <fantasai> tantek: I thought y'all would do the work :)
14:21:36 <fantasai> florian: I don't disagree that this section is editorially improveable
14:21:42 <fantasai> tantek: ...
14:21:58 <fantasai> florian: We did decide that we wanted to make editorial improvements to Process to make it easier to read
14:22:08 <fantasai> florian: whether we want this particular issue to be tracked, idk
14:22:18 <fantasai> florian: assigning to Tantek seems one way to make progress on it
14:22:45 <fantasai> cwilso: I had this assigend to me because Tantek wanted to keep it open and wasn't participating at the time
14:23:10 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Assigned to Tantek to propose wording
14:23:22 <fantasai> Topic: CRUD/Snapshot Split
14:23:29 <fantasai> dsinger_: Can we finally close this issue?
14:23:41 <fantasai> wseltzer: Please do!
14:23:47 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Close
14:24:23 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/346
14:24:30 <fantasai> Topic: Something Else
14:24:52 <fantasai> s/Something Else/ Document management for DF
14:25:01 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/366
14:25:08 <fantasai> florian: This should be assigned t ome
14:25:48 <fantasai> dsinger_: Should close then
14:26:03 <fantasai> fantasai: [quotes Léonie's comments]
14:26:14 <fantasai> dsinger_: What else is there?
14:26:23 <fantasai> florian: Process, patent Policy, Member Agreement, various other things
14:26:50 <fantasai> fantasai: Does not need to be tagged to P2021
14:27:09 <fantasai> fantasai: explicitly not about the Process, so shouldn't be tagged P2021 :)
14:27:19 <tantek> Proposed: Document (in the Process) existing public comments practices (e.g. GitHub comments) as allowed and encouraged for wider review of charter proposals and revisions.
14:27:30 <fantasai> Topic: None
14:27:56 <fantasai> Topic: Public Charter Reviews
14:27:58 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/38
14:28:04 <tantek> Per previous discussion in today's process CG call: Proposed: Document (in the Process) existing public comments practices (e.g. GitHub comments) as allowed and encouraged for wider review of charter proposals and revisions.
14:28:25 <florian> +1
14:28:29 <fantasai> +!
14:28:32 <plh> +1
14:28:37 <fantasai> +1, but I already typed that in as our resolution
14:28:59 <jeff> 0
14:29:06 <dsinger_> Proposed explicitly to defer: <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/labels/P2021%3A%20Defer>
14:29:09 <fantasai> github: noe
14:29:11 <fantasai> github: none
14:29:18 <fantasai> Topic: Deferring Issues
14:29:49 <fantasai> jeff: Aren't we closing all the ones?
14:29:55 <fantasai> dsinger_: They're in an amorphous state
14:30:01 <tantek> states: accepted2021, deferred2021, unknown2021
14:30:26 <tantek> untagged = unknown right?
14:30:28 <fantasai> s/state/state if not tagged/
14:30:35 <fantasai> jeff: Why not explicitly defer?
14:30:48 <fantasai> fantasai: If someone comes up with a proposal, should feel free to bring it up for discussion and possibly fold in to P2021
14:31:00 <dsinger_> Proposed as important, worth delaying to get: <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/labels/P2021%3A%20Priority>
14:31:01 <fantasai> Topic: Priorities
14:31:07 <wseltzer> present+
14:31:17 <dsinger_> Proposed as important, worth delaying to get: <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/labels/P2021%3A%20Priority>
14:31:46 <fantasai> dsinger_: Basically, 4 issues on Registries
14:32:13 <fantasai> dsinger_: Getting rid of Director-free mentions that are largely editorial
14:32:15 <fantasai> s/4/5
14:32:18 <jeff> q+
14:32:34 <jeff> q+ to comment on #130
14:32:50 <fantasai> florian: Not planning to do DF generally, but want to fix cases where Director is doing things like announcing, etc.
14:32:58 <fantasai> florian: prevents excessive rebasing of the DF branch
14:33:06 <fantasai> dsinger_: And also editorial streamlining
14:33:11 <florian> s/planning to do /planning to prioritize/
14:33:12 <fantasai> dsinger_: Agreed we focus on these?
14:33:34 <fantasai> jeff: Wondering, given so many posts on 130, if we should prioritize
14:33:48 <fantasai> dsinger_: You're right
14:34:06 <wseltzer> [you have widely divergent proposals on how to address it]
14:34:11 <weiler> q+
14:34:13 <fantasai> florian: Should definitely work on it. If we fail to come to consensus, should we block?
14:34:22 <fantasai> jeff: Identifying as priority doesn't tie our hands.
14:34:25 <fantasai> jeff: If we truly fail, we fail.
14:34:35 <fantasai> jeff: We pulled Registries at the last moment last year because didn't have consensus on it, eg..
14:34:53 <fantasai> ??: I think we're getting close to there
14:35:07 <fantasai> ??: Argument about what needs to be specified, but end goal is becoming clear
14:35:13 <weiler> s/??/weiler/
14:35:33 <fantasai> s/??/weiler/
14:35:36 <fantasai> Topic: Candidate Topics
14:35:38 <dsinger_> Proposed that we handle if they finish in time: <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/labels/P2021%3A%20Candidate>
14:35:39 <weiler> q-
14:35:46 <jeff> q-
14:36:03 <fantasai> florian: What does it mean to disagree that something is a candidate?
14:36:15 <fantasai> dsinger_: more likely we should add to this list rather than remove
14:36:25 <fantasai> dsinger_: A number of these fall under editorial simplifications
14:36:29 <fantasai> dsinger_: Do we need to discuss these?
14:36:38 <fantasai> dsinger_: For candidates would like to have assignees
14:38:21 <fantasai> fantasai: These are basically proposed as "we think we can do this in P2021, if someone works on them, so here's stuff might want to work on"
14:38:28 <fantasai> dsinger_: Maybe will triage with florian and jeff
14:38:44 <fantasai> florian: There are a few untagged that I wish to do, but no confidence could be done
14:38:52 <fantasai> dsinger_: ok, Florian and I will discusss
14:39:15 <fantasai> Topic: PRs
14:39:24 <dsinger_> Editor’s start on the cleanup, pull requests, and so on. <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pulls> etc.
14:39:31 <fantasai> florian: Many are old, and some of them like registries, don't make sense to discuss on the fly
14:39:46 <fantasai> florian: Gratuitous mentions of Directors, though, I think it's clean.
14:39:52 <fantasai> florian: I would like to merge
14:40:04 <fantasai> florian: Don't want this to drag on for weeks/month, it's a lot of work to rebase that branch every time we change something else
14:40:20 <fantasai> dsinger_: OK, explicit request to everyone to review this PR, make sure it doesn't change the sense of the Process
14:40:24 <fantasai> florian: Meant to do two things.
14:40:53 <fantasai> florian: Some places where Process says "Director decides X", and then references 'Director's decision'. Just removing tha mention of Director
14:41:02 <fantasai> florian: Then others where "Director announces"
14:41:10 <fantasai> florian: Doesn't need to be Director, so switching to Team
14:41:27 <fantasai> s/tha /that second/
14:41:32 <fantasai> jeff: Reviewing right now
14:41:41 <tantek> Just reviewed in GH
14:42:13 <fantasai> dsinger_: Not going to execute this PR this week, good to do next week
14:42:23 <fantasai> jeff: Agree we should pull gratuitous mentions
14:43:00 <fantasai> jeff: 2nd one (quotes text)
14:43:18 <fantasai> jeff: You're removing because by definition, Director resolves the FO?
14:43:20 <fantasai> florian: right
14:44:26 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/254
14:44:30 <florian> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/420
14:44:39 <fantasai> githb: none
14:44:42 <jeff> q+
14:44:43 <fantasai> Topic: Another PR
14:44:55 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/420
14:46:03 <fantasai> jeff: General obsevation, maybe group editorial fixes into one PR to review as a set?
14:46:15 <fantasai> florian: Maybe, but then again for DF, I did this 1.5 yrs ago, and the fact that it was being massive delayed it being reviewed.
14:46:20 <jeff> [another time, other considerations]
14:46:38 <fantasai> dsinger: Thisseems trivial
14:46:54 <fantasai> florian: Since ppl say Process is too long, mentioning when AB and TAG were created seems unnecessary
14:47:00 <fantasai> fantasai: let's accept
14:47:24 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept PR
14:48:15 <dsinger_> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/274
14:48:24 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/420
14:48:28 <fantasai> Topic: Something
14:48:48 <dsinger_> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/274
14:49:12 <fantasai> s/Something/Reference to Stale Discipline Doc/
14:49:24 <fantasai> florian: AB discussed updating document rather than removing link
14:49:28 <jeff> q+
14:49:36 <fantasai> florian: but we're still linking to a confidential document that's not up to date
14:49:53 <fantasai> dsinger_: I propose Team moves this somewhere visible so we can see it and maybe update it
14:50:02 <fantasai> florian: chaals did a clean-up of the document to make it not wrong
14:50:06 <fantasai> florian: so we might have a way forward?
14:50:13 <fantasai> florian: Seems like Team action to get this cleaned up
14:50:17 <fantasai> jeff: I propose we assign to me
14:50:41 <fantasai> Topic: Something
14:51:20 <fantasai> dsinger_: Leave to the editor
14:51:23 <fantasai> florian: I don't care either way
14:51:33 <fantasai> florian: Coralie prefers one way, you prefer other way
14:51:48 <fantasai> florian: so I don't know how to move forward
14:51:59 <jeff> q-
14:52:08 <fantasai> dsinger_: Defer to editor
14:52:09 <fantasai> tantek: agree
14:52:12 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Defer to editor
14:52:18 <fantasai> Topic: Something Else
14:52:34 <fantasai> dsinger_: I will look for issues assigned, proposed text
14:52:40 <fantasai> dsinger_: so get your ideas rolling. This is time for creativity
14:52:47 <fantasai> dsinger_: Next meeting is August 12th
14:53:08 <fantasai> tantek: Do we want that much time between meetings, or schedule one in 2 weeks?
14:53:16 <fantasai> florian: This week is oddly scheduled due to conflicts
14:53:28 <fantasai> dsinger_: Time for serious offline work
14:54:37 <fantasai> florian: To prompt merging of DF fix, should we say we'll merge unless ppl disagree?
14:54:44 <fantasai> topic: DF Cleanup
14:55:11 <dsinger_> resolved: we will merge PR 254 (Director-free cleanup) unless someone sees a problem, at the next meeting
14:55:40 <florian> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/274
14:55:46 <fantasai> Topic: Scheduling
14:56:05 <fantasai> dsinger_: Usually we submit for review at TPAC, is that same schedule ?
14:56:14 <fantasai> jeff: Seems unrealistic. Just sumbitted P2020 for AC ballot
14:56:19 <fantasai> jeff: So we will slip compared to normal schedule
14:56:26 <fantasai> dsinger_: So spring AC like we did this year?
14:56:37 <fantasai> jeff: I think what we really need to do is to come to ground on how we'll solve Registries
14:56:44 <fantasai> jeff: That's the priority item for this year, along with HR
14:56:49 <fantasai> jeff: 130 is a great conversation
14:56:52 <fantasai> jeff: Registries is stalled
14:56:57 <fantasai> jeff: need to restart that before going back to AC
14:57:08 <fantasai> dsinger_: OK, will make that priority for next meeting
14:57:28 <jeff> q+
14:57:41 <fantasai> tantek: Want to make more progress on DF
14:58:05 <jeff> ack je
14:58:13 <fantasai> fantasai: Plan was to do not so substantial fixes to DF for 2021
14:58:20 <fantasai> fantasai: Do more substantial work on branch for later
14:58:24 <jeff> [tantek, agree, please check AB agenda as well]
14:58:51 <fantasai> dsinger_: continue discussing in AB, if something is agreed and solid will pull into Process cycle
14:59:19 <fantasai> dsinger_: Thanks, see you next month hopefully with offline progress to discuss
14:59:23 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
15:06:15 <florian> RRSAgent, make minutes public v2
15:06:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public v2', florian.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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15:07:14 <florian> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
15:07:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/15-w3process-minutes.html florian
15:07:38 <florian> rrsagent, make log public
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