IRC log of tt on 2020-07-09

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-irc
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:02:26 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/129
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Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/02-tt-minutes.html
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Present: Nigel
15:02:46 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:02:51 [nigel]
Regrets: Cyril
15:03:40 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:04:16 [nigel]
Present+ Gary
15:04:28 [nigel]
Chair: Gary, Nigel
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Present+ Pierre
15:04:56 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:06:07 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:06:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Today we have the TTML Profile registry issue on codecs,
15:06:43 [nigel]
.. IMSC 1.2 and TTML2 mainly as placeholders - not a lot to discuss?
15:06:57 [nigel]
.. and Atsushi requested an AOB for IMSC 1.2 AC Review. Thank you!
15:07:13 [nigel]
.. Any other other business?
15:07:24 [nigel]
Pierre: I think Atsushi had a report on his discussion about shear.
15:07:31 [nigel]
Nigel: Ok we should be able to find time for that.
15:07:45 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you, that's our agenda for today.
15:08:44 [nigel]
Topic: The codecs parameter should have a formal definition of the use of the combination operators. tt-profile-registry#71
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github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/71
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Nigel: [reminds group of the issue]
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Pierre: Some of the primary users of this are in the community where Cyril and Mike
15:10:27 [nigel]
.. participate so I'm not sure we can make much progress without them.
15:11:09 [nigel]
Nigel: I know what you mean.
15:13:09 [nigel]
Topic: AC review of IMSC 1.2
15:13:44 [nigel]
Atsushi: There's no requirement on votes, but it is encouraged that all members actively
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.. participating in TTWG to vote. As of now, we only have 4 reviews, 2 from active
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.. participants and 2 others. Let me encourage you to ask your organisation to submit its review.
15:14:21 [nigel]
Nigel: That's very clear, thank you!
15:14:44 [nigel]
Atsushi: One FYI: there are no objections except for one issue raised by BBC's AC rep
15:14:55 [nigel]
Nigel: Okay, and that's an editorial issue.
15:14:59 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, that's all.
15:15:35 [nigel]
Pierre: There's a pull request against IMSC 1.2 that needs approval to merge.
15:15:44 [nigel]
Nigel: This has somehow passed me by, thank you I will look at it.
15:16:22 [nigel]
.. Thank you for the prompt.
15:17:22 [nigel]
Topic: Shear
15:17:45 [nigel]
Pierre: This is a long-standing topic and on trying to add support for shear, whether it is
15:17:54 [nigel]
.. block or character or line, to CSS.
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s/on trying/I'm trying
15:18:14 [nigel]
.. Atsushi kindly took an action item to follow up with folks in the JLREQ community.
15:18:21 [nigel]
.. Are you able to summarise your findings?
15:18:43 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes. The most baseline one is that there is no mention of shear or italics characters
15:18:47 [nigel]
.. in the current JLREQ document.
15:19:35 [nigel]
.. In the tickets shear is not mentioned in JLREQ, but in one note within JLREQ document
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.. shear is mentioned as an uncommon behaviour, sometimes used for headings or something.
15:20:16 [nigel]
.. Shear in Japanese typography was not common and was seen as a rare feature.
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.. Since having shear is quite low priority in Japanese typography, usually this is one of the
15:20:53 [nigel]
.. last features to be implemented. In general contributions to Chromium, Firefox and other
15:21:01 [nigel]
.. browser implementations is quite welcome, for implementation.
15:21:12 [nigel]
.. That is a common understanding among JLREQ task force.
15:21:27 [nigel]
.. During our discussion we found one thing for block shearing to be shared in combination
15:21:32 [nigel]
.. with ruby base and annotation.
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.. It seems that in discussion there was a request for samples or documentation of block shearing of ruby.
15:22:09 [nigel]
.. But there is no follow-up to that comment. We would welcome such examples or documents
15:22:30 [nigel]
.. if they exist. That would be the point for us to discuss with browser vendors.
15:22:33 [nigel]
.. That is my summary.
15:22:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you.
15:23:18 [nigel]
.. Do we have any examples of use in subtitles?
15:23:27 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes you can find them from Netflix and from Digital Cinema.
15:23:39 [nigel]
.. What I'm trying to do is find a way to break the cycle where every time it is presented
15:23:48 [nigel]
.. the answer is "we don't know about it so it is not relevant".
15:24:14 [atsushi]
https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/4871350/40342158-d573a7f8-5d3d-11e8-987a-d76aef5b45c5.png
15:24:21 [nigel]
Atsushi: Actually we would like samples of block shearing?
15:24:30 [nigel]
Pierre: What do you mean? [shows image on share]
15:25:24 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2983 CSS Issue 2983 for shear
15:25:47 [nigel]
Pierre: This is a long thread with a lot of examples in it.
15:26:32 [nigel]
.. You can shear every character individually or as a block, and the difference is the alignment
15:26:37 [nigel]
.. of ruby annotations with the base.
15:26:50 [nigel]
Atsushi: We need real world examples too.
15:27:07 [nigel]
Pierre: SMPTE has a document that describes this, that is used every day in digital cinema.
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.. SMPTE ST 428-7.
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.. Netflix has it in their subtitle guidelines.
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Andreas: How I understood Atsushi to mean that they need real documents, like from an actual movie.
15:29:05 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, some reference to a real movie including this would be very useful.
15:29:20 [nigel]
.. We could not find any example of it being used for ruby.
15:29:39 [nigel]
Pierre: Just to make sure, do you mean a specification or an actual distributed subtitle document?
15:30:00 [nigel]
Atsushi: Any guideline, internal company guideline or reference.
15:30:20 [nigel]
Pierre: OK I provided a couple of links like the Netflix one and the SMPTE one which both
15:30:32 [nigel]
.. have examples of shear.
15:30:44 [nigel]
.. I think a copy was shared with this group so we have a liaison with the SMPTE document.
15:31:39 [nigel]
.. There is also software called SST G1Pro, which is Japanese subtitling software.
15:32:33 [nigel]
.. [shares screen showing a manual] This manual has examples of shear.
15:32:37 [nigel]
.. Is that what you're looking for?
15:32:46 [nigel]
Atsushi: If this shows block shearing for ruby that would be great.
15:32:59 [nigel]
Pierre: It does, yes. I'm not sure if I can find it on the spot but I will send an email
15:33:15 [nigel]
.. summarising those three documents. Do you think that would be helpful in continuing the discussion?
15:33:17 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes
15:34:11 [nigel]
Pierre: I will find the examples and send it over.
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.. [finds it on page 45]
15:34:44 [nigel]
.. Here we go!
15:34:58 [nigel]
Atsushi: I see, I can see this is sheared by block.
15:35:10 [nigel]
Pierre: I don't want to presume about the ideal way of shearing, block, line or character.
15:35:27 [nigel]
.. The idea is to come up with the right answer. I'm fairly certain italic is not the right answer.
15:35:40 [nigel]
.. I am happy to put you in touch with an engineer behind this software if you would like.
15:36:03 [nigel]
Atsushi: I think we should start with these reference documents.
15:36:03 [nigel]
Pierre: OK
15:37:15 [nigel]
Nigel: Just thinking out loud, I guess a different answer could be to skew the alignment line
15:37:30 [nigel]
.. for aligning the ruby annotation, when shear is applied to a ruby base character.
15:37:52 [nigel]
Pierre: I'm happy with whatever the answer is but not "this doesn't happen" - I'm happy
15:37:55 [atsushi]
https://github.com/w3c/type-samples
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.. to provide a list of examples.
15:38:11 [nigel]
Atsushi: Just for information, JLREQ is operating a repository of samples, as above.
15:38:48 [nigel]
Pierre: Please upload the links. While you have the attention of JLREQ I recommend you go
15:38:50 [nigel]
.. to them immediately and share the examples.
15:38:56 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, of course.
15:42:24 [nigel]
Topic: AOB: EBU Webinar on TTML over RTP
15:42:43 [nigel]
Nigel: Not sure if I shared this before but I will be participating in an EBU Webinar
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.. alongside the author of RFC 8759, James Sandford, about TTML over RTP, on 28th July.
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-> https://tech.ebu.ch/events/2020/timed-text-over-rtp-webinar EBU Webinar link
15:43:40 [nigel]
.. If you're interested, please do register.
15:47:53 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
15:48:07 [nigel]
Nigel: It seems Mike had difficulty joining today, so we'll have to resolve that offline and
15:48:17 [nigel]
.. return to the codecs parameter issue next week.
15:48:28 [nigel]
.. Thanks everyone, since we've completed those parts of the agenda that we could,
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.. let's adjourn. [adjourns meeting]
15:48:41 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-minutes.html nigel
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zakim, end meeting
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As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Atsushi, Gary, Pierre, Andreas
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RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:04 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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rrsagent, excuse us
16:01:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items