15:02:17 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:02:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-irc 15:02:19 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:20 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:02:26 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/129 15:02:34 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/07/02-tt-minutes.html 15:02:43 Present: Nigel 15:02:46 scribe: nigel 15:02:51 Regrets: Cyril 15:03:40 Present+ Atsushi 15:04:16 Present+ Gary 15:04:28 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:04:38 Present+ Pierre 15:04:56 Present+ Andreas 15:06:07 Topic: This meeting 15:06:26 Nigel: Today we have the TTML Profile registry issue on codecs, 15:06:43 .. IMSC 1.2 and TTML2 mainly as placeholders - not a lot to discuss? 15:06:57 .. and Atsushi requested an AOB for IMSC 1.2 AC Review. Thank you! 15:07:13 .. Any other other business? 15:07:24 Pierre: I think Atsushi had a report on his discussion about shear. 15:07:31 Nigel: Ok we should be able to find time for that. 15:07:45 Nigel: Thank you, that's our agenda for today. 15:08:44 Topic: The codecs parameter should have a formal definition of the use of the combination operators. tt-profile-registry#71 15:08:51 github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/71 15:09:16 pal has joined #tt 15:09:50 Nigel: [reminds group of the issue] 15:10:04 Pierre: Some of the primary users of this are in the community where Cyril and Mike 15:10:27 .. participate so I'm not sure we can make much progress without them. 15:11:09 Nigel: I know what you mean. 15:13:09 Topic: AC review of IMSC 1.2 15:13:44 Atsushi: There's no requirement on votes, but it is encouraged that all members actively 15:13:46 atai has joined #tt 15:13:55 .. participating in TTWG to vote. As of now, we only have 4 reviews, 2 from active 15:14:13 .. participants and 2 others. Let me encourage you to ask your organisation to submit its review. 15:14:21 Nigel: That's very clear, thank you! 15:14:44 Atsushi: One FYI: there are no objections except for one issue raised by BBC's AC rep 15:14:55 Nigel: Okay, and that's an editorial issue. 15:14:59 Atsushi: Yes, that's all. 15:15:35 Pierre: There's a pull request against IMSC 1.2 that needs approval to merge. 15:15:44 Nigel: This has somehow passed me by, thank you I will look at it. 15:16:22 .. Thank you for the prompt. 15:17:22 Topic: Shear 15:17:45 Pierre: This is a long-standing topic and on trying to add support for shear, whether it is 15:17:54 .. block or character or line, to CSS. 15:18:00 s/on trying/I'm trying 15:18:14 .. Atsushi kindly took an action item to follow up with folks in the JLREQ community. 15:18:21 .. Are you able to summarise your findings? 15:18:43 Atsushi: Yes. The most baseline one is that there is no mention of shear or italics characters 15:18:47 .. in the current JLREQ document. 15:19:35 .. In the tickets shear is not mentioned in JLREQ, but in one note within JLREQ document 15:19:51 .. shear is mentioned as an uncommon behaviour, sometimes used for headings or something. 15:20:16 .. Shear in Japanese typography was not common and was seen as a rare feature. 15:20:40 .. Since having shear is quite low priority in Japanese typography, usually this is one of the 15:20:53 .. last features to be implemented. In general contributions to Chromium, Firefox and other 15:21:01 .. browser implementations is quite welcome, for implementation. 15:21:12 .. That is a common understanding among JLREQ task force. 15:21:27 .. During our discussion we found one thing for block shearing to be shared in combination 15:21:32 .. with ruby base and annotation. 15:21:51 .. It seems that in discussion there was a request for samples or documentation of block shearing of ruby. 15:22:09 .. But there is no follow-up to that comment. We would welcome such examples or documents 15:22:30 .. if they exist. That would be the point for us to discuss with browser vendors. 15:22:33 .. That is my summary. 15:22:38 Nigel: Thank you. 15:23:18 .. Do we have any examples of use in subtitles? 15:23:27 Pierre: Yes you can find them from Netflix and from Digital Cinema. 15:23:39 .. What I'm trying to do is find a way to break the cycle where every time it is presented 15:23:48 .. the answer is "we don't know about it so it is not relevant". 15:24:14 https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/4871350/40342158-d573a7f8-5d3d-11e8-987a-d76aef5b45c5.png 15:24:21 Atsushi: Actually we would like samples of block shearing? 15:24:30 Pierre: What do you mean? [shows image on share] 15:25:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2983 CSS Issue 2983 for shear 15:25:47 Pierre: This is a long thread with a lot of examples in it. 15:26:32 .. You can shear every character individually or as a block, and the difference is the alignment 15:26:37 .. of ruby annotations with the base. 15:26:50 Atsushi: We need real world examples too. 15:27:07 Pierre: SMPTE has a document that describes this, that is used every day in digital cinema. 15:27:13 .. SMPTE ST 428-7. 15:27:22 .. Netflix has it in their subtitle guidelines. 15:28:47 Andreas: How I understood Atsushi to mean that they need real documents, like from an actual movie. 15:29:05 Atsushi: Yes, some reference to a real movie including this would be very useful. 15:29:20 .. We could not find any example of it being used for ruby. 15:29:39 Pierre: Just to make sure, do you mean a specification or an actual distributed subtitle document? 15:30:00 Atsushi: Any guideline, internal company guideline or reference. 15:30:20 Pierre: OK I provided a couple of links like the Netflix one and the SMPTE one which both 15:30:32 .. have examples of shear. 15:30:44 .. I think a copy was shared with this group so we have a liaison with the SMPTE document. 15:31:39 .. There is also software called SST G1Pro, which is Japanese subtitling software. 15:32:33 .. [shares screen showing a manual] This manual has examples of shear. 15:32:37 .. Is that what you're looking for? 15:32:46 Atsushi: If this shows block shearing for ruby that would be great. 15:32:59 Pierre: It does, yes. I'm not sure if I can find it on the spot but I will send an email 15:33:15 .. summarising those three documents. Do you think that would be helpful in continuing the discussion? 15:33:17 Atsushi: Yes 15:34:11 Pierre: I will find the examples and send it over. 15:34:39 .. [finds it on page 45] 15:34:44 .. Here we go! 15:34:58 Atsushi: I see, I can see this is sheared by block. 15:35:10 Pierre: I don't want to presume about the ideal way of shearing, block, line or character. 15:35:27 .. The idea is to come up with the right answer. I'm fairly certain italic is not the right answer. 15:35:40 .. I am happy to put you in touch with an engineer behind this software if you would like. 15:36:03 Atsushi: I think we should start with these reference documents. 15:36:03 Pierre: OK 15:37:15 Nigel: Just thinking out loud, I guess a different answer could be to skew the alignment line 15:37:30 .. for aligning the ruby annotation, when shear is applied to a ruby base character. 15:37:52 Pierre: I'm happy with whatever the answer is but not "this doesn't happen" - I'm happy 15:37:55 https://github.com/w3c/type-samples 15:37:55 .. to provide a list of examples. 15:38:11 Atsushi: Just for information, JLREQ is operating a repository of samples, as above. 15:38:48 Pierre: Please upload the links. While you have the attention of JLREQ I recommend you go 15:38:50 .. to them immediately and share the examples. 15:38:56 Atsushi: Yes, of course. 15:42:24 Topic: AOB: EBU Webinar on TTML over RTP 15:42:43 Nigel: Not sure if I shared this before but I will be participating in an EBU Webinar 15:43:01 .. alongside the author of RFC 8759, James Sandford, about TTML over RTP, on 28th July. 15:43:32 -> https://tech.ebu.ch/events/2020/timed-text-over-rtp-webinar EBU Webinar link 15:43:40 .. If you're interested, please do register. 15:47:53 Topic: Meeting close 15:48:07 Nigel: It seems Mike had difficulty joining today, so we'll have to resolve that offline and 15:48:17 .. return to the codecs parameter issue next week. 15:48:28 .. Thanks everyone, since we've completed those parts of the agenda that we could, 15:48:35 .. let's adjourn. [adjourns meeting] 15:48:41 rrsagent, make minutes v2 15:48:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:52:24 atai has left #tt 15:59:52 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:59:58 zakim, end meeting 15:59:58 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Atsushi, Gary, Pierre, Andreas 16:00:00 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:00:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:00:04 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:00:08 Zakim has left #tt 16:01:22 rrsagent, excuse us 16:01:22 I see no action items