14:47:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:47:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-irc
14:47:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:47:26 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:51:02 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Jun/0013.html
14:51:33 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/06/12-pbgsc-minutes.html previous: 12-June
14:52:07 <jeff__> jeff__ has joined #pbgsc
14:52:25 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:55:14 <Ralph> present+ Daihei, George, Ralph
14:56:30 <tzviya> regrets+ Wendy_Reid
14:56:49 <dauwhe> present+
14:58:24 <tzviya> present+
15:01:23 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh
15:01:44 <ivan> ivan has joined #pbgsc
15:02:00 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbgsc
15:02:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:02:09 <George> present+
15:02:21 <Daihei_> Daihei_ has joined #pbgsc
15:02:24 <Ralph> present+ Ivan
15:02:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:02:31 <Daihei_> present+
15:02:39 <ivan> present+
15:03:05 <Avneesh> present+
15:03:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> I somehow missed seeing an agenda. I have another meeting I need to be on. Could I report on the captioning progress or lack thereof early in the meeting so I can jump to the other one?
15:04:06 <jeff__> present+
15:04:53 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
15:05:12 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
15:05:30 <Ralph> present+ Liisa
15:05:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: we've been talking about captioning for the webinar
15:05:35 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:05:41 <dauwhe> Topic: webinar
15:05:46 <liisamk> present+
15:06:08 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxI_dvU8EaRfJBVfNvNpwjLPVCa-ZZHZUUCOB-5YomE/edit?usp=sharing
15:06:13 <dauwhe> ... let's look at the GDoc
15:06:23 <dauwhe> ... I've talked to potential speakers
15:06:30 <Ralph> ^^Publishing @ W3C Summer Webinar
15:06:36 <Ralph> present+ Garth
15:06:43 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh was concerned about too many panelists from North America
15:06:54 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:06:55 <dauwhe> ... Cristina could speak about groups and goals
15:07:01 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh talking about a11y
15:07:04 <garth> present+ Garth
15:07:05 <dauwhe> ... Wendy representing the WG
15:07:14 <dauwhe> ... Mateus representing the CG
15:07:40 <dauwhe> ... we have our speakers set
15:07:45 <dauwhe> ... we need to coordinate on dates
15:08:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:08:10 <dauwhe> ... we're talking about two time slots: one America/Europe, one Asia
15:08:23 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:08:33 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf:
15:08:37 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf:
15:08:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I wanted to report on progress and lack of progress about captions
15:09:04 <dauwhe> ... I talked to 3Play first
15:09:28 <dauwhe> ... their CEO said they'd love to do this, but our live captioning is auto-captioning
15:09:49 <dauwhe> ... they have a service that combines auto-captioning with human refinement
15:09:55 <dauwhe> ... the human part happens later
15:10:05 <dauwhe> ... I reached out to Richard Orme
15:10:10 <dauwhe> ... he thinks highly of them
15:10:20 <dauwhe> ... but shares skepticism about auto-captioning
15:10:33 <dauwhe> ... I then reached out to NCam
15:10:49 <dauwhe> ... The captioning services are from WGBH
15:11:09 <dauwhe> ... but they said they would be unlikely to contribute for free
15:11:16 <dauwhe> ... so what should we do?
15:11:24 <tzviya> q?
15:11:26 <dauwhe> ... should we pursue live captioning? Can we pay for it?
15:11:37 <dauwhe> ... I can get back to Richard for referrals to good captioners
15:11:42 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:11:55 <dauwhe> Ralph: Thanks Bill
15:12:08 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #pbgsc
15:12:11 <dauwhe> ... I would appreciate some sense from this group
15:12:22 <dauwhe> ... I asked George about DAISY's general practices around webinars
15:12:55 <dauwhe> ... I'd appreciate guidance from them
15:13:04 <George> q+
15:13:08 <tzviya> ack George
15:13:08 <dauwhe> ... does anyone think live captioning is optional?
15:13:14 <dauwhe> George: two things
15:13:22 <dauwhe> ... first, it's essential from an a11y perspective
15:13:30 <dauwhe> ... and for ESL
15:13:46 <dauwhe> ... the captioning reinforces the spoken word
15:14:04 <dauwhe> ... tzviya, you said the captioning is very good, so you must have it turned on. what do you think?
15:14:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: I've looked at the captioning afterwords
15:14:42 <dauwhe> ... I've often used it to speed up the absorbtion of video
15:14:43 <tzviya> q?
15:15:06 <dauwhe> garth: what's the complaint about auto-captioning? is it the name problem?
15:15:24 <dauwhe> ... I've never seen google auto-caption get the words wrong
15:15:30 <dauwhe> many: we've seen errors
15:15:33 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:15:33 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to followup after everyone else who cares to respond does so
15:15:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: there's an issue with jargon; it gets messed up
15:15:51 <dauwhe> garth: point taken
15:16:07 <dauwhe> Ralph: George couldn't see us nod that captioning is essential
15:16:19 <dauwhe> ... this group does say captioning is essential
15:16:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: the action item is to follow up with Richard Orme
15:16:46 <dauwhe> Ralph: I'll follow up
15:16:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: moving back to dates
15:16:52 <tzviya> [1] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Publishing+community+meeting&iso=20200723T09&p1=43
15:16:52 <tzviya> [2] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Publishing+community+meeting&iso=20200723T10&p1=43
15:16:52 <tzviya> [3] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Publishing+community+meeting&iso=20200723T20&p1=43
15:16:53 <tzviya> [4] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Publishing+community+meeting&iso=20200723T21&p1=43
15:17:11 <tzviya> on 23,  27, or 28 July
15:17:51 <dauwhe> ... we'll have to vote by email
15:18:18 <dauwhe> ... oh, will have to revise for US Pacific
15:18:30 <dauwhe> ... if any dates don't work for the speakers we'll have to change
15:18:36 <dauwhe> ... I'll do a doodle poll
15:18:39 <ivan> q+
15:18:47 <Ralph> [those dates are Thursday, Monday, and Tuesday]
15:19:00 <dauwhe> ... ivan and karen have been working on a sign-up form
15:19:04 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:19:05 <dauwhe> ... we need to work on slides
15:19:17 <dauwhe> ivan: I think the best is if you send out the doodle for speakers
15:19:24 <dauwhe> ... my preferences don't really count
15:19:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll include liisamk in case cristina can't be a speaker
15:19:54 <dauwhe> ... I'll be in touch with karen about writing that text, making it sound exciting
15:20:04 <dauwhe> ... in the BG we were talking about localized presentations
15:20:16 <dauwhe> ... would we translate and add content? Do different presentations?
15:20:43 <ivan> q+
15:20:46 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:20:53 <dauwhe> ivan: I am not one of the localizers
15:21:07 <dauwhe> ... the idea would be to have essentially the same message everywhere
15:21:21 <dauwhe> ... a translation of a slide set PLUS anything specific to the locale
15:21:57 <dauwhe> ... we should try not to make very different presentations, because that makes the w3c message more diffuse
15:22:15 <dauwhe> ... Daihei_, you were saying about the japanese audience needing something specific
15:22:36 <dauwhe> Daihei_: there was something about epub reflowable for japanese vertical text
15:22:51 <dauwhe> ... who should I send details to?
15:22:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: send it to the list
15:23:20 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:23:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll reach out to cristina
15:23:30 <dauwhe> Ralph: we have room for a little flexibility
15:23:40 <dauwhe> ... the agenda has 30min presentation and 30min qa
15:23:42 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbgsc
15:23:59 <dauwhe> ... it's plausible there may be topics that are higher-priority to present and discuss for japan
15:24:23 <dauwhe> ... if daihei were to feel that detailed discussion of some of those japanese text layout issues could use some of the qa time, that's fine
15:24:38 <dauwhe> ... the first 30min is important info for everyone
15:24:40 <ivan> q+
15:25:32 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is also taken from Richard Orme... we did a webinar with 30min for questions, and we prepped some questions in advance to get the questioning going
15:26:01 <dauwhe> ... Daihei_, if there are concerns about vertical layout, we can ask that question first, or solicit questions in advance
15:26:14 <Daihei_> q+
15:26:22 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:26:36 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:26:42 <tzviya> ack Daihei_
15:26:45 <dauwhe> Daihei_: what i'm going to summarize is
15:26:47 <tzviya> q+ ivan
15:27:01 <dauwhe> ... I will have Shinya Takami
15:27:09 <dauwhe> ... he'll include the more technical issues
15:27:17 <dauwhe> ... and some locally unique issues we want to overcome
15:27:28 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:27:31 <dauwhe> ... that will all be covered
15:27:42 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't want to muddle to waters, but one thing came up for dates
15:27:47 <dauwhe> ... we are at the end of July
15:27:59 <dauwhe> ... and the end of the EPUB 3 WG charter is on July 31
15:28:11 <dauwhe> ... so if everything goes well with the vote...
15:28:16 <dauwhe> ... Ralph is shaking his head
15:28:22 <dauwhe> Ralph: [shakes his head]
15:28:22 <liisamk> q+
15:28:35 <dauwhe> ivan: rm -rf /Ivan
15:28:36 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:28:45 <jeff_> q+
15:28:48 <dauwhe> liisamk: what is the next piece, and how long will it take
15:28:53 <dauwhe> Ralph: we don't know how long it takes
15:29:05 <dauwhe> ... it depends if the director has to address any tough questions from the membership
15:29:18 <dauwhe> ivan: a week if there are no problems, which would put us mid-august
15:29:33 <tzviya> ack je
15:29:36 <dauwhe> Ralph: I don't recommend moving the schedule based on w3c member activity
15:29:57 <dauwhe> jeff_: I wanted to hear more about what Ivan was saying
15:30:17 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm not concerned; being able to say that we are going to start the EPUB 3 WG would be a good thing
15:30:25 <Avneesh> q+
15:30:26 <dauwhe> ... we can't say that yet because the vote is ongoing
15:30:34 <tzviya> ack av
15:30:39 <dauwhe> Avneesh: this is a concern
15:30:49 <dauwhe> ... the good thing is that the webinar is not only about WG
15:30:57 <Ralph> +1; not just about the WG
15:31:06 <dauwhe> ... it's about strategy at a high level; we can say that we are working on these things
15:31:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's a fair point
15:31:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: we talked in the BG meeting about having the slides available publicly
15:31:39 <dauwhe> ... is there an SC github?
15:31:59 <Ralph> action: Ralph cause a SC GitHub repo to exist
15:32:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: better to keep all the slides in one deck; I'll reach out to the speakers, and we need accessible slides
15:32:11 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:32:12 <George> q+
15:32:13 <Avneesh> q+
15:32:17 <tzviya> ack George
15:32:27 <dauwhe> George: we will need to provide the slides in advance to the captioner
15:32:36 <dauwhe> ... that helps them prepare their language in advance
15:32:43 <dauwhe> ... sending them a powerpoint is best
15:32:45 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
15:32:57 <Ralph> s/is best/is best rather than expecting them to go into GitHub
15:33:10 <dauwhe> Avneesh: when we talk about webinar two times, will we present once and then do a recording, or live both times?
15:33:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: I thought we'd do it live both times
15:33:19 <George> q+
15:33:25 <liisamk> +1 to live both times
15:33:29 <dauwhe> Ralph: I would hope the presenters all be available
15:33:37 <tzviya> ack George
15:33:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: for Avneesh the time zones are challenging
15:33:57 <dauwhe> George: I like pre-recording. Things go smoothly.
15:34:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: we talked about pre-recording for everyone last time, and that got nixed
15:34:29 <dauwhe> ... let's look at the times again, and then see if everyone can make it.
15:34:39 <Avneesh> good to go thorugh times first. anywhays everyone has to be present for question and answers
15:34:53 <dauwhe> Ralph: having presenters being awake and alert is a good thing
15:35:18 <Avneesh> q+
15:35:22 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
15:35:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: we could expand group for qa, have different group for diff time zones
15:35:40 <dauwhe> Avneesh: sometimes you have to dress up at odd times because video :)
15:36:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: I will follow up with folks about logistics
15:36:18 <dauwhe> Topic: The CG
15:36:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: I expected mateus could call in from the road
15:36:40 <dauwhe> ... he and Jeff Xu are co-chairs of CG, and are talking about kicking off the group
15:36:52 <dauwhe> ... they want a new charter
15:37:01 <dauwhe> ... they want to organize around committees
15:37:05 <dauwhe> ... the know the scope is broad
15:37:39 <dauwhe> ... there will be lot of flexibility in the structure
15:37:48 <Ralph> s/the k/they k
15:37:48 <dauwhe> ... it will be a bit like the strategy funnel
15:38:09 <dauwhe> ... ralph has talked about combining the CG mailing lists
15:38:10 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:38:16 <dauwhe> ... then there will be a kickoff meeting
15:38:21 <dauwhe> Ralph: re combo of CGs
15:38:28 <dauwhe> ... that action item is in limbo on my desk
15:38:53 <dauwhe> ... we can do a relaunch of the CG
15:39:02 <dauwhe> ... my delay may be OK
15:39:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: it will come at an opportune time
15:39:30 <dauwhe> Ralph: I will sync with them
15:39:36 <George> q+
15:39:40 <tzviya> ack ge
15:40:19 <Ralph> topic: What to advise when an OS doesn't have support for EPUB ?
15:40:22 <dauwhe> George: I would assume the CG would be able to deal with issues like the windows EPUB viewer, and promote EPUB
15:40:30 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:40:33 <dauwhe> ... but the tech issues associated with it, would be fair game for the CG
15:40:39 <dauwhe> Ralph: thanks for raising that, George
15:40:45 <dauwhe> ... the tech issues are fair game for the CG
15:40:47 <tzviya> q+ to talk about evangelism
15:40:55 <dauwhe> ... as I read your email, there's a deployment question
15:41:06 <dauwhe> ... this Q may be to Liisa and Daihei
15:41:22 <dauwhe> ... is that deployement question, giving assistance to MS Windows users
15:41:31 <dauwhe> ... is the BG the place to give advice?
15:41:36 <dauwhe> ... can the bg take that up?
15:41:42 <dauwhe> q+ to rant
15:41:55 <dauwhe> liisamk: from an awareness perspective yes
15:42:13 <dauwhe> ... we can promote... laurent talked about thorium in the BG
15:42:16 <tzviya> q later
15:42:20 <dauwhe> ... I'm not sure what else we could do
15:42:25 <dauwhe> Ralph: it could be a FAQ
15:42:34 <Daihei_> q+
15:42:37 <tzviya> ack dau
15:42:37 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to rant
15:42:41 <dauwhe> ... could the business group maintain an FAQ?
15:42:47 <Ralph> scribe+
15:43:01 <Ralph> dauwhe: this is a really hard question
15:43:10 <liisamk> q+
15:43:15 <Ralph> ... this gets to one of the reasons why Publishing@W3C struggles in general
15:43:21 <Ralph> ... we don't have the power to change things
15:43:35 <Ralph> ... in CSS it's different; the group participants are the browser developers
15:43:47 <Ralph> ... they can decide to add a feature to their OS
15:44:06 <Ralph> ... all we can do is petition others to do things that we don't have the power to do
15:44:14 <Ralph> ... that puts us in a challenging position
15:44:23 <Ralph> ... we're aware of this but we are not the decision makers
15:44:33 <tzviya> ack me
15:44:33 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about evangelism
15:44:46 <dauwhe> tzviya: I was going to say something similar
15:44:56 <dauwhe> ... when I read George's note
15:45:00 <dauwhe> ... this is a shock to people
15:45:10 <dauwhe> ... just because you write a standard doesn't mean it gets implemented
15:45:13 <dauwhe> ... and that's frustrating
15:45:23 <dauwhe> ... we can learn about how to work on implementations
15:45:28 <dauwhe> ... and how to petition browsers
15:45:40 <dauwhe> ... for those who were at the event after the AB meeting in NY
15:45:53 <dauwhe> ... Robin and Leonie talked about how frustrating to work on standards
15:45:57 <Ralph> s/the AB/the January AB
15:46:12 <dauwhe> ... Robin spoke about how it took 8 years to get a feature in HTML
15:46:18 <dauwhe> ... we need to speak to the browsers
15:46:33 <dauwhe> ... HTML5 was no picnic either. The browsers had evangelists.
15:47:03 <dauwhe> ... we should talk to MS about what worked and didn't work in their implementation
15:47:08 <dauwhe> ... patience is part of the game
15:47:14 <tzviya> q?
15:47:17 <tzviya> ack Daihei_
15:47:18 <dauwhe> ... we need to work with the browsers instead of complaining about it
15:47:31 <dauwhe> Daihei_: it's worthwhile to discuss at PBG
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15:47:43 <dauwhe> ... and talk about implementation
15:47:58 <dauwhe> ...  and do some research about how the industry thinks about the extension issue
15:48:10 <dauwhe> ... I can talk to people in Japan about how they see this
15:48:18 <dauwhe> ... and about other possibilities
15:48:30 <tzviya> ack liis
15:48:34 <dauwhe> ... and I can work with the PBG chairs
15:48:58 <dauwhe> liisamk: coming out of survey result was dismay at the misinformation out there
15:49:14 <dauwhe> ... and we could help educate people, as we're starting to do with the guest speakers
15:49:20 <dauwhe> ... an FAQ could be part of that
15:49:40 <dauwhe> ... and how do we help our community get traction to do good things
15:49:59 <dauwhe> ... like Thorium... we need to get it to a place where you can search
15:50:10 <dauwhe> ... not having search is the thing that keeps publishers from adopting tools
15:50:19 <dauwhe> ... so we need to educate the community
15:50:32 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:50:34 <dauwhe> ... but also how to we let people working on tools understand why their tools aren't be adopted
15:50:39 <dauwhe> Ralph: exactly, liisamk
15:50:51 <dauwhe> ... we have an opportunity to correct some misunderstandings
15:50:56 <dauwhe> ... I appreciate dave's rant
15:51:14 <dauwhe> ... what I was thinking was along the lines of what liisa said
15:51:17 <tzviya> q+ to mention MDN
15:51:18 <George> q+
15:51:26 <dauwhe> ... we can be frustrated that we don't see the deployment that we want
15:51:31 <dauwhe> ... but there are solutions
15:51:39 <dauwhe> ... if the community doesn't know about thorium
15:51:50 <dauwhe> ... we have to be careful about being neutral
15:52:02 <dauwhe> ... but saying "windows users can't read epub" is factually incorrect
15:52:02 <tzviya> ack me
15:52:02 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention MDN
15:52:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: last year, Rachel Comerford and I were working on MDN documentation for EPUB
15:52:46 <dauwhe> ... we never finished that up. Could the BG take that up? We have all the docs and initial feedback
15:52:53 <ivan> q+
15:52:55 <jeff__> q+
15:52:57 <dauwhe> ... the SEO is very good
15:53:04 <dauwhe> ... I'd be willing to help
15:53:12 <dauwhe> liisamk: I'd want to see the details
15:53:21 <dauwhe> ... it sounded like it was hell on wheels to get off the ground
15:53:31 <dauwhe> ... and it was going to be very basic
15:53:37 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll dig up what I have
15:53:38 <jeff__> q-
15:53:43 <tzviya> ack George
15:53:59 <dauwhe> George: an FAQ sounds like a good method for solving a problem or future problems
15:54:20 <dauwhe> ... some of these companies, they're asking me for boilerplate for what they put on their web page when they host an epub
15:54:42 <dauwhe> ... we could get a link to thorium on the microsoft store and an FAQ for more information
15:54:57 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:55:01 <dauwhe> ... DAISY would be delighted to provide a link to our roundup and a11y evaluations
15:55:06 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm a regular user of MDN
15:55:14 <dauwhe> ... we should have EPUB somehow presented there
15:55:23 <dauwhe> ... but MDN is different than what we're talking about
15:55:50 <Ralph> <ralph> [MDN addresses an important, but separate audience than a "So how to I read an EPUB?" FAQ]
15:56:15 <Ralph> scribe+
15:56:35 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #pbgsc
15:56:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm hearing that MDN will be great but we have something that needs to be addressed before MDN
15:57:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'll follow up with details about the Webinar for presenters and planners
15:57:32 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:57:35 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:57:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, George, Ralph, dauwhe, tzviya, Avneesh, Ivan, Bill_Kasdorf, Daihei_, jeff__, Liisa, liisamk, Garth
15:57:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:40 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:57:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
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16:07:10 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
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16:29:38 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
16:31:05 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:31:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
16:31:23 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
16:31:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
16:31:49 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:31:49 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
16:31:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph cause a SC GitHub repo to exist [1]
16:31:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2020/06/26-pbgsc-irc#T15-31-59