20:44:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:44:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-irc
20:45:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:45:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:45:03 <trackbot> Date: 17 June 2020
20:45:12 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:51:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:51:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:52:21 <riccardoAlbertoni> rrsagent, make log public
20:52:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:52:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:58:33 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:00:25 <PWinstanley_> scribenick: PWinstanley_
21:00:34 <PWinstanley_> present+
21:02:33 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:42 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:03:07 <PWinstanley_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.06.17
21:03:10 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:03:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:04:16 <PWinstanley_> regrets+ SimonCox
21:04:27 <riccardoAlbertoni> Chair: RiccardoAlbertoni
21:04:51 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:04:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:05:34 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2020/06/03-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:05:37 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:05:37 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:05:43 <PWinstanley_> +1
21:05:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> RESOLVED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2020/06/03-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:06:00 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:06:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:06:03 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2020.06.17
21:06:34 <PWinstanley_> topic: versioning
21:07:03 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/89
21:07:22 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: issue #89 - version delta
21:07:40 <PWinstanley_> ... in the last meeting we discussed a lot but didn't come to a clear conclusion
21:08:19 <PWinstanley_> ... I am proposing that we use adms:versionNotes
21:08:24 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:08:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> Proposed: Consider  adms:versionNotes as a working solution for expressing textual description of the version delta.
21:09:13 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:09:17 <PWinstanley_> ... principally because it does not imply any entailments.  It is a good flexible starting point
21:09:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:09:35 <PWinstanley_> +1
21:09:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> resolve:Consider  adms:versionNotes as a working solution for expressing textual description of the version delta.
21:10:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> resolved: Consider  adms:versionNotes as a working solution for expressing textual description of the version delta.
21:10:12 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:10:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:10:17 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/91 Version release date
21:10:46 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: version release date -
21:11:26 <PWinstanley_> ... we need to have some mapping between dcterms and prov
21:11:39 <PWinstanley_> s/prov/prof/
21:11:58 <PWinstanley_> ... we had already included dc:modified
21:12:04 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:12:14 <PWinstanley_> ... what are the feelings about dc:issued?
21:12:35 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: I think we should start with the simple solution, in the absence of a motivating use case
21:13:46 <PWinstanley_> ... until we have a good use case then we should not tie ourselves to anything .  a version of a dataset is a dataset
21:14:36 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: so you agree with adopting dct:created ... assuming that each time a new version is created it is a new dataset
21:16:52 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: perhaps the idea was to have a creation date with the initiation of the dataset, then a version for each publication.  Until there is something tangible, using the same properties means that it is like another dataset.  Using this approach we are not explicitly providing a solution for a release date
21:18:13 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: one discussion related to the one you are trying is the PAV which distinguishes between two types of version - one for long-standing entities and another for more short-lived ones
21:18:29 <AndreaPerego_> AndreaPerego_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:18:46 <AndreaPerego_> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:18:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego_
21:19:03 <AndreaPerego_> q+
21:19:15 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:19:16 <PWinstanley_> ... since one of the driving ideas I was following was to make DCAT a lingua franca, I wonder if we need to distinguish between long-standing assets and shorter lived assets
21:20:16 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego_: we need a use case.
21:20:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kOp810ep3gQ2iezVXH-abX2q2QubqxNmyJ2bcX6WAFw/edit?usp=sharing
21:21:02 <PWinstanley_> ... for the time-being we assume that a version of a dataset is another dataset.  Without a use case it is difficult to know how to handle this point
21:21:06 <AndreaPerego_> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:21:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego_
21:21:14 <AndreaPerego_> q-
21:22:19 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: To explain why I am dealing with this type of issue, 2 of the most powerful vocabularies about versioning make this distinction (long-lived vs short-lived) and so perhaps it is an implicit requirement
21:24:06 <PWinstanley_> ... we could ignore fine-tuning but we lose expressivity.  We need to think about the need to be able to map a vocab like PAV to DCAT
21:24:29 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:24:44 <PWinstanley_> ... So, although we don't have a formal requirement, my concern is that we should be able to map these vocabularies.
21:25:40 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: I understand the point, but I'm still concerned about addressing this in DCAT without a statement about how and why we are doing this.  Perhaps it is just to get alignment with PAV or Version
21:25:43 <PWinstanley_> q+
21:25:49 <PWinstanley_> ack AndreaPerego
21:26:18 <PWinstanley_> ... so perhaps it is an alignment issue rather than an extension of DCAT
21:26:25 <PWinstanley_> ack PWinstanley_
21:28:06 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_: there is already a link to Prov and use thing like wasGeneratedBy
21:29:19 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:29:57 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: the PAV shows how dct:isVersionOf is the prop that links something that is not version with something that it.... this kind of property occurs in so many places it makes it difficult to actually find the actual version that an entity is.  We need something that is explicit
21:30:21 <PWinstanley_> ack AndreaPerego
21:31:00 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: so we can provide something simple in DCAT and if that is not enough we can direct users to PAV or other version vocabularies
21:31:34 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: I think that if you provide only the simplest thing you are providing something that is not very useful/useable
21:32:15 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:33:21 <PWinstanley_> ... This isn't an issue that we absolutely need to deal with , but we risk providing a solution that is not really satisfactory - but it depends on what kind of user you have in mind.  Simple annotation of the next version, then that simple case is enough, but with the need to know the most recent version then something more sophisticated is needed
21:34:16 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: I agree that the key information needed is whether a version is the most recent or not.
21:35:53 <PWinstanley_> ... I think with the prof and adms properties we can cover things like next and last.  This is ok for the use cases that I can figure out, but there may be some that cannot be covered by this.  For the time-being I think that what we have from dc and adms could be enough
21:37:15 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: the relation which is the pointer to the latest version - what does that point to?  there needs to be an update to earlier versions at publication time
21:37:57 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: if there is a URL pointing to the latest version, then that is OK, but otherwise there is a need to have updates
21:38:27 <PWinstanley_> ... so we need to distinguish between a vocabulary requirement and an implementation approach
21:38:39 <PWinstanley_> ... this is something from DWBP
21:39:27 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: there needs to be a property that returns the latest version without assuming anything about versioning practice
21:40:02 <PWinstanley_> ... my hunch is that if we don't want to enter into this best practice we need a more complex solution
21:41:03 <PWinstanley_> ... each time the version is updated the prev relationship needs to be entered to the previous version
21:41:57 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: the unversioned entity always corresponds to the most recent?
21:42:47 <PWinstanley_> ... this is about the ways of publishing data.  It is platform-dependent.  Otherwise it has to be done another way
21:43:10 <PWinstanley_> ... zenodo has a mechanism for providing a list of previous versions
21:43:30 <PWinstanley_> ... but in this case it is related to the publication mechanism
21:44:05 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: you can cover both approaches with the same vocabulary
21:44:20 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: in CKAN I don't think this is possible
21:45:03 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: so there is no single option.  PAV would fit with some platforms; adms into others
21:45:34 <PWinstanley_> ... so instead of mandating a single approach we can show alternatives and people can select depending on the data publishing platform
21:45:53 <PWinstanley_> q+
21:46:01 <PWinstanley_> ack AndreaPerego
21:46:29 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: I know use cases where conceptually this relationship wouldn't work
21:47:25 <PWinstanley_> ... gathering data for a specific purpose, what may happen is that the approach may change from year to year.  So they are different datasets because the survey approach changed from year to year
21:48:12 <PWinstanley_> ... so it is important to know that datasets are related, but they are not versions of the same entity because of the survey changes.  Nevertheless I would still want to know the latest version
21:48:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> ?q
21:48:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:48:33 <PWinstanley_> ack PWinstanley_
21:50:29 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_: we need to keep a broad approach that will allow the versioning of any of the main classes of DCAT
21:50:34 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:51:08 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: one possible approach is to describe the cases that AndreaPerego was suggesting and see how different vocabs measure up
21:52:13 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: we are not going to address versioning in detail, we are going to deal with a subset - but we can refer to other vocabularies whilst looking at the subset of cases
21:52:35 <PWinstanley_> ... we can provide pointers to other vocabularies
21:54:18 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: prov is powerful but the same thing can be said in different ways.
21:55:35 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: we just need to discuss this.  we might not arrive at a solution, but we need to see what we can do
21:55:57 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: we can include dc and adms, they are stable and related to DCAT
21:57:06 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: if there are terms from vocabularies that are not standard we could implement something similar within DCAT.  If we are precise enough we can have a mapping with existing vocabularies
21:58:22 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: People still want a 'solution' for versioning in spite of there being many vocabularies.... I think we should take this opportunity
21:59:36 <PWinstanley_> topic: how to catalog a relational database
22:00:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1240
22:00:26 <PWinstanley_> AndreaPerego: this is related to cataloguing a service or API.  there was a similar requirement for a triplestore recently.  We need to put this on the agenda
22:00:43 <PWinstanley_> ... this is something we might want to address for the next version
22:01:11 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: this is also something for the primer, and we might not be able to provide a full solution, but we can give some pointers
22:04:43 <PWinstanley_> ... We need to get more thoughts about versioning, but for the next meeting we perhaps need to focus on something else and see if we can make progress there
22:07:30 <PWinstanley_> riccardoAlbertoni: I will send out an email asking for topics for the next call
22:07:45 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:07:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/17-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:07:52 <PWinstanley_> bye