<Jemma> Scribe:Jemma

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-9%2C-2020-Meeting

ARIA – AT Project update

mck: almost completed pilot testing for checkbox and editor menubar

The goal is testing the system and learning how testers understand the assertions

the report page will be up this week.

The goal at the end of the year is having AT testing result to be incorparated into ARIA APG examples.

Place holder discussion

car: when do you start next round of testing?

mck: I don't have funding confirmed for the rest half of year project yet.
... we still have to define reporting process.

if both testers agree, those will be put into the draft report.

and can be visible.

we would also like to have confirmation from NVDA developers as well as the bugs are raised to them.

Community group helps will be great on the process.

Placehodlers

s/plracehdlers/Place holders

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1413#issuecomment-636359008

mck: instruction of how to use element will not be the part of discussion.

sarah: aria-description should not be used for placeholder.

Matt: yes

<scribe> Scribe: Mark

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: so placeholders aren't read though, right?

<MarkMccarthy> mck: they are, all screen readers do

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: if we do use placeholders, use "e.g." or something similar

<MarkMccarthy> mck: oh, it won't read if you arrow through it, but it will still read it when focused

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: should read it similarly to the way aria-description is read

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: no; and you can have both

<MarkMccarthy> mck: NVDA does it different than JAWS does, it reads the first character, but reading the input itself it reads as if it is there

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: thinking about it, I don't think it makes sense. if we do use it, it should be clear that its nonsense

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: i like the "e.g."

<MarkMccarthy> mck: either way, if we're going to use a placeholder, it shouldn't be possible to mistake that placeholder for actual input

<MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: so dont make it necessary to be perceived to complete the form, and make sure it can't be confused

<MarkMccarthy> s/MarkMccarthy: so don't make it/sarah_higley: so don't make it

<MarkMccarthy> mck: IF we do have a placeholder, it should be "e.g. 06/09/2020" or something similar

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: is it a problem to have a placeholder AND descriptive text?

<MarkMccarthy> mck: not a great UX if they're redundant

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: so if you added instruction on how to use the calendar, that'd be good along with the "e.g. etc"

<MarkMccarthy> mck: if the format isn't described, then there will be some people that will miss the format

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: placeholders also have problems with contrast, they often don't meet

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: and if they do meet, they're confusing

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: we make them barely meet contrast and italic when the language supports

sarah: placeholder does not need to meet color constrast requirement.

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: they're exempt, I think

<jamesn> From WCAG understanding "The minimum contrast success criterion (1.4.3) applies to text in the page, including placeholder text and text that is shown when a pointer is hovering over an object or when an object has keyboard focus. If any of these are used in a page, the text needs to provide sufficient contrast."

<MarkMccarthy> mck: in the case of the combobox, we're taking the placeholder out and adding a visual description OUTSIDE of the input that is referenced by aria-describedby

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: so based on that, you need to change browser defaults?

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: yes or don't use them

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: in this case, if it's in a combobox, it's important to have. and/but I see this everywhere

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: what do we put in the placeholder, or do we just not use it? I don't have a good answer for it

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: if placeholder text really needs to meet CCR, then we probably shouldn't use it?

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: for a11y we shouldn't, but if we do, it should meet the standard

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: people aren't coming here to see how to use placeholder though

<MarkMccarthy> mck: we will for 252

<MarkMccarthy> mck: and i want to make sure that what we do here is in line with what we suggest

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/252

Draft guidance section on input assistance and validation states and properties #252

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: then maybe we say don't use placeholder and make that example based on this discussion

<MarkMccarthy> mck: i've heard two ways of modifying the placeholder, with e.g. or italics maybe, in languages that support it

<MarkMccarthy> mck: it also has to be nonessential content. essential content has to be rendered outside of input somewhere

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: but if it's perceivable, the cognitive load skyrockets

<MarkMccarthy> mck: then if there's consensus, we could recommend not using it

<MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: +1 to not using placeholder

<MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: i find that placeholder has more problems than benefits

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: guidance for how to make it as good as possible is helpful

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: so for this example, we'd put MM/DD/YYYY after the date and make it visually part of the label

<MarkMccarthy> Jemma: so to be clear - we're getting rid of placeholder and making it part of the description

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: i'm also trying to understand

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: it could go next to the label in parenthesis etc.

<MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: that's what I recommend for devs

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: +1

<MarkMccarthy> mck: i'd like to capture in 252 that we discourage placeholders, and if there's a reason it's -necessary- then it should meet these other critera (nonessential and not mistaken for actual input etc.)

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: so it shouldn't replace label or instruction

<MarkMccarthy> mck: yeah!

<MarkMccarthy> Jemma: we can add this to 252

Widget States

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1277

sarah's comment - Based on the discussion in the APG meeting today, we decided on removing this example, and adding guidance to indicate that a valid use of aria-checked over aria-selected is when you need to support a mixed selection state, but that both attributes should not be used at the same time.

<MarkMccarthy> mck: we discussed aria-checked vs -selected but no new commits, so maybe now isn't a good time to review

<MarkMccarthy> mck: looks like we gathered some action items that aren't finished yet, so maybe we'll move on

open pull requests

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen++sort%3Aupdated-desc

1. Select-only combobox

<MarkMccarthy> mck: where are we with 1396?

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: should be ready to merge if reviews are done

<MarkMccarthy> mck: should get done this week, valerie will get to it thurs or fri, and will put it to top of her list

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: one question - if tabbing to combo, drop it down and move around, and press tab, what should happen?

<MarkMccarthy> mck: since selection follows focus, it'd choose what you were on - similar to native select

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: so where does focus go?

<MarkMccarthy> mck: next item in tab order

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: they don't

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: all Windows and MacOS Firefox reselect the combo. either way it's very common that the select gets refocused

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: happy to have it go to the next or prev in tab order, but why did browsers choose to stay in place?

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: maybe users wanted a chance to review? or something like that?

<MarkMccarthy> mck: they way comboboxes are commonly done, they work that same way too. even ones that do autocomplete

<MarkMccarthy> mck: so i think our select-only should be consistent and not mimic weirdness

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: one more consideration - a multiselect combobox that gets a bunch of values. maybe you'll want to review? can always shift-tab

<MarkMccarthy> mck: well right now spec says combobox is a single select. so if we want to discuss these things, that'd be a 1.3 thing

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: sina was very vocal about it, we've been discussing it on the WG call

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: maybe it came from something to do with OSs, or it wasn't easy to implement sending tab to the next item or something...

+1

<MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: so decision is go to next item in tab order?

<MarkMccarthy> CurtBellew: +1

+1

<MarkMccarthy> MarkMccarthy: +1

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: and add a note that we're deliberately altering from select behavior

explict note will be added for this behavior in the example.

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: or if we get a good reason, we could change it

<MarkMccarthy> mck: that was a deep dive, right?

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: yeah, and lots of that discussion is on slack or comments.

<MarkMccarthy> jamesn: this one was mostly in slack

<MarkMccarthy> mck: so how about an aria 1.3 issue on combobox that can ref that slack conversation?

<CurtBellew> I've got to run to another meeting. Bye all.

<MarkMccarthy> sarah_higley: i'll add a line in documentation about tab for that

<MarkMccarthy> scribe: MarkMccarthy

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Present: mck carmacleod JaeunJemmaKu jamesn MarkMccarthy jongund CurtBellew sarah_higley
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