14:58:49 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:58:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-irc 14:58:50 inviting RRSAgent 14:58:51 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:58:53 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:04 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/118 14:59:10 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/05/28-tt-minutes.html 14:59:32 Present: Nigel, Pierre 14:59:34 Regrets: Gary 14:59:35 Chair: Nigel 14:59:37 scribe: nigel 15:03:42 Present+ Andreas, Glenn, Atsushi 15:05:28 Topic: This meeting 15:05:55 Nigel: I'd like to wrap up the TTML2 font fingerprinting issue, and there's a placeholder 15:06:01 .. for the TTML2 IR too. 15:06:16 .. Then we can continue to iterate through the IMSC issues from ARIB. 15:06:31 .. I think that's it. AOB, or points to make sure we cover? 15:07:05 Atsushi: We could discuss the IMSC branch protection rules? 15:07:09 Nigel: OK if we have time at the end 15:07:58 atai has joined #tt 15:08:19 Topic: Add consideration for font fingerprinting w3c/ttml2#1203 15:08:33 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1203 15:09:02 Nigel: 2 things outstanding. 15:09:16 .. 1. Change "Font Matching" title to "Font Detection" 15:09:32 .. Any views against calling the section "Font Detection"? 15:09:35 Glenn: Fine with me 15:10:52 Pierre: No objection, and I'm happy for me or someone else to make that change. 15:10:56 .. I can do it right now. 15:11:08 RESOLUTION: Rename "Font Matching" to "Font Detection". 15:11:26 Nigel: The next one is about other detections using `condition`. 15:12:33 cyril has joined #tt 15:12:53 pal has joined #tt 15:13:04 .. First question: any counter-views to my recent conclusion that condition does not 15:13:18 .. provide any further ability to detect fonts than what is already written in this pull request? 15:13:37 Glenn: Note we can conditionalise on user's preference for language, which may not apply 15:13:43 .. to, say, CSS media queries. 15:13:55 Pierre: Yes, you could conditionalise an image based on someone's user preference so 15:14:05 .. you could determine user preference based on the request for an image. 15:14:16 RRSAgent, pointer 15:14:16 See https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-irc#T15-14-16 15:14:17 Glenn: It would have to be heuristic based and it is possible to fail a variety of modes. 15:14:29 Pierre: Yes, and it doesn't change my overall perspective that trying to solve this complex 15:14:46 .. topic that potentially requires coordination, normatively, at the last minute, would lead to 15:14:49 .. a mistake. 15:14:57 .. I would keep it simple. 15:15:06 Nigel: I don't think I'm not suggesting a normative change. 15:15:16 Pierre: I don't object to adding condition but someone would have to propose the text. 15:15:26 Glenn: My preference would be to defer treating condition, which is something Nigel 15:15:38 .. raised. If we try to agree on it now then we need language, and agreement on it, and 15:16:12 .. that will open up the discussion further. This feeds into Pierre's point that it is a wider 15:16:22 .. broader issue and we're likely to get it wrong if we address it at the last minute. 15:16:37 Pierre: We could make a generic statement. As soon as a document allows access to external 15:16:48 .. resources the fingerprinting risk increases. 15:17:02 Glenn: That depends on the delivery mechanism, a prepackaged carousel vs on demand. 15:17:07 .. It depends on the context to know if it is an issue. 15:17:19 Pierre: Yes and on top of that the particular implementation provides heuristics. 15:17:34 Glenn: That's why I think it's in the application environment, outside the scope of TTML. 15:18:20 Nigel: Focusing tightly on this pull request, is there some additional fingerprinting risk 15:18:31 .. for font matching derived from condition? 15:19:16 Glenn: I pointed out that user preference language can be used, which can be used to make 15:19:23 .. decisions about font defaulting. 15:19:29 Present+ Cyril 15:19:41 .. Let's say the user's default is Mongolian, for example. An implementation might look at 15:19:52 .. the font list and throw out any fonts that don't support Mongolian, for example, and never 15:19:55 .. do fetches on them. 15:20:18 Nigel: And that would be caused by the condition attribute and not by the font element? 15:20:33 Glenn: Let's say you conditionalised a style element or declaration based on user language 15:20:46 .. preference and then that style happens to be the one that specifies a fontFamily attribute. 15:21:53 .. You might have different values for fontFamily depending on the condition. 15:22:06 Nigel: And that's independent of font, so you could do the same thing based on fetching 15:22:23 .. any external resource even not a font, also based on the user's language preference. 15:22:26 Glenn: Correct. 15:22:43 .. Resource fetching is a known mechanism for communicating usage back to a server. 15:22:57 .. Non-resource-fetching semantics such as presentation without fetching would have 15:23:03 .. no route back to the server. 15:23:50 Nigel: My conclusion is that there may be a need for a new issue or pull request related 15:23:59 .. to condition but it should not block this pull request. Is that correct? 15:24:09 Glenn: No objections from me. 15:24:16 Pierre: I agree too. 15:25:15 RESOLUTION: Detections based on condition attribute need not be factored into this pull request. 15:25:29 Nigel: Then thank you Pierre for volunteering to update the pull request for the section 15:25:44 .. title, when that's done I think we can go ahead and merge. 15:26:15 Topic: Implementation Report 15:26:24 s/Im/TTML2 Im 15:26:40 Glenn: I just did a pull request last night on ttml2-tests to address a message that 15:26:54 .. Cyril sent a week or so ago. Also there was an open issue #238 that Cyril had opened. 15:27:06 .. I think I dealt with all of the questions in #238 as well as the new message. The answer 15:27:20 .. to Cyril's question as to whether they belong in the manifest is Yes, and they were 15:27:30 .. missing by admin error on my part. In a couple of cases there were some bad names. 15:27:42 .. I believe I've got that all fixed up, and if you find any other discrepancies let me know 15:27:45 .. and I'll fix those. 15:27:56 Cyril: Thank you, I will update the IR to make sure these tests are in there. 15:28:07 Glenn: Yes, keep in mind a couple of test names changed too. 15:28:35 Nigel: They're pretty easy to spot in the pull request. 15:29:02 .. Thanks for that Glenn, assuming that all looks good I think we can merge it quickly. 15:29:29 Glenn: The only other thing is moving forward with updating the IR to list an implementation 15:29:54 .. for all the validation tests. 15:30:07 Nigel: Thanks for that. I've already put our implementation on against the audio presentation test, which passes. 15:30:32 [Glenn leaves] 15:30:59 Topic: IMSC 1.2 CfC to request transition to PR 15:31:09 Nigel: Any queries or anything to raise on the CfC? 15:31:29 .. The CfC period ends tomorrow. 15:31:41 group: [nothing to raise] 15:32:05 Nigel: Thanks, Atsushi, it looks as though we'll be going ahead with that transition request. 15:32:09 Pierre: Thank you everybody. 15:32:12 Nigel: Thank you! 15:35:09 Topic: IMSC/ARIB issues 15:35:23 Pierre: It would be helpful to have a roadmap, otherwise we have a risk of going through 15:35:43 .. the issues without doing any of the work, and then the relevance would be lost before 15:35:59 .. we do get around to it. I would like us to have a plan for IMSC, do we want a new version 15:36:14 .. in the next year, or change to moving to a working draft model. I'm interested in everybody's 15:36:16 .. input on that. 15:36:48 Nigel: I'm interested in that too, but I think the first thing we have to do is understand the 15:36:54 .. scope of our response to ARIB. 15:37:09 Pierre: Ah, that would help, if we limit our discussion to the scope of the response to ARIB 15:37:14 .. that would be helpful to know. 15:37:31 Topic: [WR/ARIB] Compatibility with ARIB-TTML / 1. Image handling imsc#546 15:37:39 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/546 15:38:51 Nigel: I want to know more about the use case for this. 15:38:56 Pierre: I agree this is the essential question. 15:39:10 .. Thinking about going back to ARIB, asking for sample documents or exemplar renders 15:39:13 .. would be really helpful. 15:40:04 Cyril: I remember that when we discussed mixing text and image profile we said we would 15:40:17 .. not do it because there are other ways to do it, and that there's a complexity side to it too. 15:40:29 Pierre: That's my recollection too. My question is do they have use cases that cannot be 15:40:33 .. solved with the current approach. 15:40:45 .. Image and Text can mean many different things. It would be good to understand what they mean. 15:40:55 Cyril: I wonder if we should ask about the complexity of implementation too. 15:41:29 Pierre: Yes I think that would be great if they could point to a reference implementation so 15:41:34 .. we can understand complexity. 15:42:30 Nigel: Two things for me to add to the list for w3c/ttwg#116: 1. Request more info about use cases; 2. Ask about complexity. 15:43:01 SUMMARY: TTWG would like to know more about the use cases for this feature, and complexity of implementation. 15:43:22 Topic: [WR/ARIB] Compatibility with ARIB-TTML / 2. Font handling imsc#547 15:43:29 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/547 15:44:05 Nigel: This relates a bit to the conversation we had about putting images into text via fonts. 15:45:52 Cyril: It is not even a feature of IMSC 1.2. Even in IMSC 1.1 or earlier, if you have the right 15:45:58 .. font, then you can do it. 15:46:09 Nigel: I've always thought you can only do that if you have a contract effectively that 15:46:15 .. links the document to the font. 15:46:35 Cyril: You can have a closed environment out of band of the document that allows this to be done. 15:46:38 Nigel: Ah yes, understood. 15:46:56 Pierre: I think this is exactly what they have in mind, an environment with specified font 15:46:58 .. requirements. 15:47:16 Cyril: Even out of band, broadcasting a font alongside the IMSC document. You could get 15:47:26 .. it for free that way, whilst still being outside the scope of IMSC. 15:48:21 Nigel: I think they are saying that they have an arib-tt:font-face element that references 15:48:52 .. a font delivered externally somehow. 15:49:12 Cyril: They seem to link the ability to do IVS and Gaiji with this arib-tt:font-face element. 15:49:22 .. Maybe in our response we should say that in a closed environment you don't need 15:49:30 .. a font-face element to use IVS and Gaiji. 15:49:39 .. We can ask them if they have considered that. 15:50:23 Nigel: It seems that in ARIB-TT and IMSC 1.2 we have both arrived at a similar solution. 15:50:37 Pierre: Yes, I agree that it looks like the same capabilities are present and we can ask for 15:50:41 .. samples of how they use it. 15:50:50 Atsushi: +1 15:51:45 Nigel: Does anyone have a sense of whether we should add something to IMSC vNext, 15:51:59 .. informatively, noting the similar functionality? 15:52:30 .. More widely, is it useful in IMSC to talk about functional overlap with other profiles of TTML? 15:52:42 Cyril: We already do, with SDP-US or EBU-TT-D. 15:52:58 .. Speaking of scope, yes maybe it could be in scope in the next version to extend the lsit 15:53:02 s/lsit/list 15:53:09 .. of standards it matches or overlaps. 15:53:20 Pierre: As soon as we have the details to get comfortable with that, absolutely. 15:54:23 SUMMARY: TTWG is interested to know more about the usage of these features, and would like to consider noting the functional overlap in a future version. 15:55:00 Topic: [WR/ARIB] Compatibility with ARIB-TTML / 3. Animation imsc#548 15:55:06 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/548 15:55:17 Cyril: Nigel noted it matches #animation-version-2. 15:55:36 .. I think our answer is similar to #546 that we would like to have use cases and examples. 15:55:46 Nigel: And I assume complexity is an issue here too. 15:55:48 Cyril: Yes 15:56:22 Nigel: Looking at it from a spec development perspective it would be easy to add, but 15:56:27 .. a lot of work for implementers. 15:56:38 Pierre: That's an understatement. We need to know more details about what support is 15:56:45 .. needed, especially from an interop perspetive. 15:56:50 s/etiv/ective 15:57:20 SUMMARY: TTWG is interested to know more about the usage of these features, and complexity of implementation. 15:57:35 Topic: [WR/ARIB] Compatibility with ARIB-TTML / 4. Audio presentation imsc#549 15:57:41 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/549 15:58:04 Cyril: I agree with @nigelmegitt's comment and would like to know more about the use cases. 15:58:35 Nigel: Behind my question is "what is the use case specifically for playing audio back as 15:58:39 .. part of a subtitle document?" 15:58:56 .. I obviously have been working on an AD profile, but my assumption has always been 15:59:08 .. that it can be an independent resource from the subtitle document. 16:00:06 .. As an example, I'd be interested to know if they want to send audio renderings of the 16:00:28 .. subtitle text as something like a pre-recorded version of speech to text, or if they are using 16:00:34 .. it for audio description, or some other thing. 16:01:06 SUMMARY: TTWG is interested to know more about the usage of these features. 16:01:48 github-bot, end topic 16:01:52 Topic: Meeting close 16:02:07 Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time! See you next week. [adjourns meeting] 16:02:12 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:11:01 atai has left #tt 16:12:27 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/settings/branches 16:15:20 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:15:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:16:09 s/I don't think I'm not suggesting a normative change/I am not suggesting a normative change 16:19:34 s|https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌imsc/‌settings/‌branches|| 16:19:37 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:19:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:24:23 s|https:|| 16:24:26 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:24:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:25:21 s/s|h/h 16:25:32 s/s||/s 16:25:34 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:25:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:26:59 s|github-bot, end topic|| 16:27:00 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:27:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:39:26 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:39:29 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:39:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:44:12 github-bot- has joined #tt 17:29:21 Zakim has left #tt