Meeting minutes
This meeting
Gary: Today we have IMSC 1.2 - more discussion on the ARIB liaison.
… WebVTT, more on the Unicode normalisation, though I haven't had chance to follow up.
… Then TTML2 2nd Ed IR, Test Suite and a test to talk about
… in AOB, more TPAC planning, and are there any more AOB items to discuss today?
Nigel: Atsushi reminded me we need to fill in the form, so even if we don't get to discuss
… it today I will try to fill in something based on the discussion we have already had.
… Also IMSC - how can we make progress?
Pierre: Yes, I would like to discuss that. We are stuck because of the HR business
… and we need to take decisive action.
Nigel: OK let's cover that in IMSC 1.2
IMSC 1.2
Nigel: Two things today: status of the ARIB liaison and our response, and how we make progress.
IMSC 1.2 - ARIB liaison
Nigel: On the ARIB liaison, we left it before that Atsushi would make an informal contact,
… and I think if I understand correctly that the result is that we should raise GitHub issues.
Atsushi: In summary we can copy/paste their liaison comments into GitHub and discuss
… them there. ARIB can't discuss them from there, so they would like a reply in liaison form.
Nigel: OK then someone needs to create the issues.
Atsushi: Yes, I will do that.
Pierre: I also could do it, I don't mind.
… So we have confirmed that they are happy to make the issues public even though the
… liaison is confidential?
Atsushi: I specifically pointed to the public repo and asked if it was okay. They are fine
… for their comments to be made public.
Pierre: Perfect.
Atsushi: They need to conclude discussions internally collecting all comments from members
… so that is why it is hard for them to contribute one by one on GitHub.
Nigel: Did you get any sense of whether or not they might want to adopt IMSC if their
… comments were addressed?
Atsushi: They only said they want to get a reply.
Nigel: OK. Anyway it is great news that they want to engage with us.
IMSC 1.2 - how to make progress?
Nigel: It seems that Pierre and I (at least) have the feeling that we are a bit stuck with
… the HR issues.
Pierre: What's on my plate is doing an introduction but we decided to do that once we
… had conclusion on the other issues. I've not seen any review on PRs, for example.
… I have not seen any reaction from the APA to our proposed resolutions.
… We should avoid making changes that make noone happy.
… One way would be to call a meeting and go through the issues. I think you proposed
… that before and they did not take you up on it?
Nigel: I'm not sure from recollection.
Nigel: We moved all the privacy issues to TTML2?
Pierre: Correct. There's a TTML2 PR open and a comment that it ought to be generalised.
… I don't know how to generalise it, but it is a TTML2 issue.
Nigel: We have 5 open issues from APA for IMSC 1.2 and one for a future version.
… There are 6 pull requests open.
Pierre: The relevant ones are #526, #527 and #542 that are APA related.
… For example #527 has a summary from us saying we want review by APA, from April 2.
Nigel: I'm sure they're super busy but this is really slow for us.
Pierre: I'm happy to reach out to the Chair of that group and to Philippe and to say this
… is not a good way of working for us.
… My recommendation is to ignore the issues and proceed. Making changes without the
… commenter being involved is terrible. We will end up with the worst of all worlds.
… If they don't have time the safest thing is to move ahead and deal with it later when
… they have time.
… I'm happy to craft an email or to have the Chairs or all of us do it.
… The more I think about it this is really the issue - if they don't have time we should defer
… and move on.
Nigel: This is no fun for us - we have vNext stuff to consider and we're in stasis waiting
… to do it.
Nigel: Any other views?
Andreas: I agree
Nigel: I think this is probably better coming from the Chair.
Pierre: Happy to review that email and please CC me.
… I don't think any of the issues is fatal so it is fine to defer them.
… I'm really worried about the introduction myself.
WebVTT
Gary: I did not get a chance to make progress on the Unicode issue so unless there are
… thoughts from others I think we can skip it today.
TTML2 2nd Edition Implementation Report
Nigel: We have tests and the IR itself here.
… Glenn merged a pull request on the tests recently, and there's one more outstanding one.
… That is w3c/ttml2-tests#235, which I reviewed on 15 Nov, and reminded Glenn about
… again a week ago and earlier today.
Cyril: If you look at line 16 the same comment would apply.
Nigel: Oh yes, I didn't notice that.
Cyril: Your comment is this is not testing the xml:id, but the semantic about nesting?
Nigel: Yes
Cyril: Makes sense to me, yes.
Nigel: I've added that comment to the pull request.
Cyril: What about the references then, if you change the inner xml:id, what about the used
… attribute value? Oh actually line 14 has use="#nestedContentProfile" and there's a comment
… that it's invalid as a fragment identifier.
Nigel: Now I'm confused about what this is trying to test.
Cyril: Yes he seems to be testing multiple things.
… Maybe we should have nested profile elements without xml:id, and test that nesting
… is not allowed.
… I don't know if we need to test twice the same id, it doesn't make sense.
… And then test that a `use` attribute refers to an absent profile element (in the invalid case).
Nigel: Thanks for the input, I'm not sufficiently confused that I will go back and check the
… spec change that was made and what this test is trying to do.
…
… Moving on to the Implementation Report,
… last time Cyril you volunteered to do a pass over the IR assuming that the tests would
… be as they are if these pull requests get merged. I'm not sure if you managed to do that?
TTML2 2nd Ed Implementation Report
Cyril: I haven't had time yet, but I will do it.
Nigel: The next agenda item here is w3c/ttml2#1207 which is to add more examples
… to the Introduction.
… Last time I put this on the agenda when Glenn had registered regrets he objected to it
… being discussed in his absence. He's not present today and wasn't last week when it was
… on the agenda, and did not object again, so I think we need to make progress.
… Cyril reviewed this a week ago and I resolved the comment about trailing whitespace.
Nigel: Are there any other views on this pull request?
… This pull request was opened 3 weeks ago and had some review.
Andreas: I didn't review the complete example in detail but in general it is super helpful
… to have text and examples that clarify that putting region on body isn't always good.
… People don't go into the detail about content being pruned if it has a different region,
… to body in this case, so I think it is good to try to clarify and fix this.
Nigel: Thank you for that.
Cyril: I'm just reading the paragraph in the intro. It says each paragraph is flowed into
… "its targeted region" but it means its own one but here there's only one. It should say
… "each paragraph is flowed into the target region" not "its target region" - it is misleading.
… This is in the existing text, not what's in the pull request.
Pierre: TTML2 has an introduction, that has an example that's not practical - misleading
… is too strong a word, so this is an attempt to correct that by including a more practical
… example. Is that correct?
Nigel: Yes.
Pierre: I'm wondering if the original example should be removed. If the problem was the
… first example that is not incorrect but also not representative. Should it be removed and
… replaced with this more complete example?
Nigel: I wouldn't object but I suspect Glenn might.
Pierre: As long as the new example is correct, it's fine with me.
Nigel: Obviously I believe it to be correct but it would be helpful to get extra review.
… [shows pull request]
Pierre: This is a more advanced example?
Nigel: Yes
Pierre: If anything the complexity may make people think a bit more carefully.
… "The location of content spatially is independent of its timing." strikes me as incredibly
… abstract and mind-blowing.
… The way I've tried to describe this is that the author defines region and selects what text
… and when the text flows into those regions.
Nigel: Yes
Pierre: So there are multiple steps. First define regions, then specify text, and then specify
… when that text flows in what region. This is how I try to summarise when people ask
… how this all works. Figure out which region text in a document flows into, and then figure
… out when, separately.
… Looking at this, I'd be tempted to replace the first sentence by something along those
… lines. Then the example illustrates that.
Nigel: I'm happy to try to make that change.
Andreas: I also agree, I found that first sentence a bit confusing.
Pierre: It's true, right, you can specify the position and timing independently, but that is
… incredibly abstract, but for people especially with experience of, say, 608, will understand
… the concept of regions.
… To answer the question, I don't have any objections to adding examples at this point.
Nigel: Thanks all for that.
Andreas: I also think it is useful and gives a good idea of how you could use TTML and
… some of the basic patterns you can apply.
Nigel: Moving on due to time, that's really positive, thank you. The action is with me
… to do another editorial pass on the first paragraph first sentence.
AOB TPAC Planning
Nigel: I think this is for Chairs now, and we have good input from members on this from
… previous discussions. I may also have trouble getting funding for travel now, even if
… there were no potential health implications.
Pierre: As another data point, in another group I chair, we have had long discussions about
… this and concluded that we should try to arrange the best possible virtual meeting and
… if somehow a physical meeting becomes possible, deal with that then.
… Let's make the best out of it.
Nigel: Agreed.
Pierre: Especially with CSS-WG we should try to make an effort to meet virtually together
… soon, regardless of TPAC, to coordinate our efforts on Ruby, text emphasis etc.
… For example ruby overhang, if they want to discuss that.
… tate chu yoko was another one.
<atsushi_> (just these reminded me that I should work on JLReq more...)
Nigel: Action for me and Gary to work out how to fill the form in.
Gary: If you want to, feel free to fill it out, otherwise I guess if you want my feedback you
… could put it in a doc and I can look it over and add comments or something.
Nigel: Okay, I'll fill it in, get what I wrote emailed back to me, share that with you, and if
… there are any changes to make we can go back in and change it.
Gary: That works.
Meeting close
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're 2 minutes over so I'll adjourn. See you next time. [adjourns meeting]