IRC log of tt on 2020-05-07

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:58 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/111
15:01:06 [nigel]
Present: Andreas, Atsushi
15:01:17 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
15:02:08 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html
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Present+ Gary
15:02:21 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:02:24 [nigel]
Chair: Gary, Nigel
15:02:43 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:05:04 [nigel]
Gary: Today we have IMSC 1.2 - more discussion on the ARIB liaison.
15:05:27 [nigel]
.. WebVTT, more on the Unicode normalisation, though I haven't had chance to follow up.
15:05:37 [nigel]
.. Then TTML2 2nd Ed IR and a test to talk about
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s/IR/IR, Test Suite
15:06:09 [nigel]
.. in AOB, more TPAC planning, and are there any more AOB items to discuss today?
15:06:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Atsushi reminded me we need to fill in the form, so even if we don't get to discuss
15:06:50 [nigel]
.. it today I will try to fill in something based on the discussion we have already had.
15:07:31 [nigel]
.. Also IMSC - how can we make progress?
15:07:41 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes, I would like to discuss that. We are stuck because of the HR business
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.. and we need to take decisive action.
15:07:52 [nigel]
Nigel: OK let's cover that in IMSC 1.2
15:08:06 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.2
15:08:30 [nigel]
Nigel: Two things today: status of the ARIB liaison and our response, and how we make progress.
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Present+ Cyril
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15:09:11 [nigel]
Nigel: On the ARIB liaison, we left it before that Atsushi would make an informal contact,
15:09:23 [nigel]
.. and I think if I understand correctly that the result is that we should raise GitHub issues.
15:09:34 [nigel]
Atsushi: In summary we can copy/paste their liaison comments into GitHub and discuss
15:09:59 [nigel]
.. them there. ARIB can't discuss them from there, so they would like a reply in liaison form.
15:10:16 [nigel]
Nigel: OK then someone needs to create the issues.
15:10:23 [nigel]
Atsushi: Yes, I will do that.
15:10:45 [nigel]
Pierre: I also could do it, I don't mind.
15:10:56 [nigel]
.. So we have confirmed that they are happy to make the issues public even though the
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.. liaison is confidential?
15:11:17 [nigel]
Atsushi: I specifically pointed to the public repo and asked if it was okay. They are fine
15:11:21 [nigel]
.. for their comments to be made public.
15:11:24 [nigel]
Pierre: Perfect.
15:11:40 [nigel]
Atsushi: They need to conclude discussions internally collecting all comments from members
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.. so that is why it is hard for them to contribute one by one on GitHub.
15:12:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Did you get any sense of whether or not they might want to adopt IMSC if their
15:12:30 [nigel]
.. comments were addressed?
15:13:14 [nigel]
Atsushi: They only said they want to get a reply.
15:13:30 [nigel]
Nigel: OK. Anyway it is great news that they want to engage with us.
15:14:05 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.2 - how to make progress?
15:14:16 [nigel]
i/Nigel: On the ARIB/Topic: IMSC 1.2 - ARIB liaison
15:14:42 [nigel]
Nigel: It seems that Pierre and I (at least) have the feeling that we are a bit stuck with
15:14:50 [nigel]
.. the HR issues.
15:15:20 [nigel]
Pierre: What's on my plate is doing an introduction but we decided to do that once we
15:15:42 [nigel]
.. had conclusion on the other issues. I've not seen any review on PRs, for example.
15:15:52 [nigel]
.. I have not seen any reaction from the APA to our proposed resolutions.
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.. We should avoid making changes that make noone happy.
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.. One way would be to call a meeting and go through the issues. I think you proposed
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.. that before and they did not take you up on it?
15:16:57 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm not sure from recollection.
15:17:29 [nigel]
Nigel: We moved all the privacy issues to TTML2?
15:17:42 [nigel]
Pierre: Correct. There's a TTML2 PR open and a comment that it ought to be generalised.
15:17:51 [nigel]
.. I don't know how to generalise it, but it is a TTML2 issue.
15:18:22 [nigel]
Nigel: We have 5 open issues from APA for IMSC 1.2 and one for a future version.
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.. There are 6 pull requests open.
15:19:31 [nigel]
Pierre: The relevant ones are #526, #527 and #542 that are APA related.
15:19:49 [nigel]
.. For example #527 has a summary from us saying we want review by APA, from April 2.
15:20:03 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm sure they're super busy but this is really slow for us.
15:20:13 [nigel]
Pierre: I'm happy to reach out to the Chair of that group and to Philippe and to say this
15:20:18 [nigel]
.. is not a good way of working for us.
15:20:29 [nigel]
.. My recommendation is to ignore the issues and proceed. Making changes without the
15:20:40 [nigel]
.. commenter being involved is terrible. We will end up with the worst of all worlds.
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.. If they don't have time the safest thing is to move ahead and deal with it later when
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.. they have time.
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.. I'm happy to craft an email or to have the Chairs or all of us do it.
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.. The more I think about it this is really the issue - if they don't have time we should defer
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.. and move on.
15:22:10 [nigel]
Nigel: This is no fun for us - we have vNext stuff to consider and we're in stasis waiting
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.. to do it.
15:22:22 [nigel]
Nigel: Any other views?
15:22:38 [nigel]
Andreas: I agree
15:23:04 [nigel]
Nigel: I think this is probably better coming from the Chair.
15:23:11 [nigel]
Pierre: Happy to review that email and please CC me.
15:23:20 [nigel]
.. I don't think any of the issues is fatal so it is fine to defer them.
15:23:32 [nigel]
.. I'm really worried about the introduction myself.
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q?
15:24:11 [nigel]
Topic: WebVTT
15:24:24 [nigel]
Gary: I did not get a chance to make progress on the Unicode issue so unless there are
15:24:31 [nigel]
.. thoughts from others I think we can skip it today.
15:24:53 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition Implementation Report
15:25:03 [nigel]
Nigel: We have tests and the IR itself here.
15:26:14 [nigel]
.. Glenn merged a pull request on the tests recently, and there's one more outstanding one.
15:28:32 [nigel]
.. That is w3c/ttml2-tests#235, which I reviewed on 15 Nov, and reminded Glenn about
15:28:37 [nigel]
.. again a week ago and earlier today.
15:29:10 [nigel]
Cyril: If you look at line 16 the same comment would apply.
15:29:16 [nigel]
Nigel: Oh yes, I didn't notice that.
15:29:30 [nigel]
Cyril: Your comment is this is not testing the xml:id, but the semantic about nesting?
15:29:31 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes
15:29:35 [nigel]
Cyril: Makes sense to me, yes.
15:30:19 [nigel]
Nigel: I've added that comment to the pull request.
15:30:32 [nigel]
Cyril: What about the references then, if you change the inner xml:id, what about the used
15:31:26 [nigel]
.. attribute value? Oh actually line 14 has use="#nestedContentProfile" and there's a comment
15:31:35 [nigel]
.. that it's invalid as a fragment identifier.
15:31:44 [nigel]
Nigel: Now I'm confused about what this is trying to test.
15:31:51 [nigel]
Cyril: Yes he seems to be testing multiple things.
15:32:02 [nigel]
.. Maybe we should have nested profile elements without xml:id, and test that nesting
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.. is not allowed.
15:32:20 [nigel]
.. I don't know if we need to test twice the same id, it doesn't make sense.
15:32:40 [nigel]
.. And then test that a `use` attribute refers to an absent profile element (in the invalid case).
15:33:07 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks for the input, I'm not sufficiently confused that I will go back and check the
15:33:15 [nigel]
.. spec change that was made and what this test is trying to do.
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..
15:33:45 [nigel]
.. Moving on to the Implementation Report,
15:34:03 [nigel]
.. last time Cyril you volunteered to do a pass over the IR assuming that the tests would
15:34:13 [nigel]
.. be as they are if these pull requests get merged. I'm not sure if you managed to do that?
15:34:28 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport TTML2 2nd Ed Implementation Report
15:34:55 [nigel]
Cyril: I haven't had time yet, but I will do it.
15:35:50 [nigel]
Nigel: The next agenda item here is w3c/ttml2#1207 which is to add more examples
15:35:54 [nigel]
.. to the Introduction.
15:36:08 [nigel]
.. Last time I put this on the agenda when Glenn had registered regrets he objected to it
15:36:23 [nigel]
.. being discussed in his absence. He's not present today and wasn't last week when it was
15:36:41 [nigel]
.. on the agenda, and did not object again, so I think we need to make progress.
15:37:14 [nigel]
.. Cyril reviewed this a week ago and I resolved the comment about trailing whitespace.
15:37:31 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1207 TTML2 Pull request #1207
15:37:39 [nigel]
Nigel: Are there any other views on this pull request?
15:39:04 [nigel]
.. This pull request was opened 3 weeks ago and had some review.
15:41:21 [nigel]
Andreas: I didn't review the complete example in detail but in general it is super helpful
15:41:37 [nigel]
.. to have text and examples that clarify that putting region on body isn't always good.
15:41:53 [nigel]
.. People don't go into the detail about content being pruned if it has a different region,
15:42:02 [nigel]
.. to body in this case, so I think it is good to try to clarify and fix this.
15:42:10 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you for that.
15:42:27 [nigel]
Cyril: I'm just reading the paragraph in the intro. It says each paragraph is flowed into
15:42:46 [nigel]
.. "its targeted region" but it means its own one but here there's only one. It should say
15:43:09 [nigel]
.. "each paragraph is flowed into the target region" not "its target region" - it is misleading.
15:43:20 [nigel]
.. This is in the existing text, not what's in the pull request.
15:44:59 [nigel]
Pierre: TTML2 has an introduction, that has an example that's not practical - misleading
15:45:15 [nigel]
.. is too strong a word, so this is an attempt to correct that by including a more practical
15:45:21 [nigel]
.. example. Is that correct?
15:45:23 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes.
15:45:36 [nigel]
Pierre: I'm wondering if the original example should be removed. If the problem was the
15:45:49 [nigel]
.. first example that is not incorrect but also not representative. Should it be removed and
15:45:56 [nigel]
.. replaced with this more complete example?
15:46:05 [nigel]
Nigel: I wouldn't object but I suspect Glenn might.
15:46:13 [nigel]
Pierre: As long as the new example is correct, it's fine with me.
15:46:50 [nigel]
Nigel: Obviously I believe it to be correct but it would be helpful to get extra review.
15:51:05 [nigel]
.. [shows pull request]
15:51:13 [nigel]
Pierre: This is a more advanced example?
15:51:15 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes
15:51:33 [nigel]
Pierre: If anything the complexity may make people think a bit more carefully.
15:52:08 [nigel]
.. "The location of content spatially is independent of its timing." strikes me as incredibly
15:52:12 [nigel]
.. abstract and mind-blowing.
15:52:32 [nigel]
.. The way I've tried to describe this is that the author defines region and selects what text
15:52:38 [nigel]
.. and when the text flows into those regions.
15:52:40 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes
15:52:53 [nigel]
Pierre: So there are multiple steps. First define regions, then specify text, and then specify
15:53:05 [nigel]
.. when that text flows in what region. This is how I try to summarise when people ask
15:53:23 [nigel]
.. how this all works. Figure out which region text in a document flows into, and then figure
15:53:29 [nigel]
.. out when, separately.
15:53:40 [nigel]
.. Looking at this, I'd be tempted to replace the first sentence by something along those
15:53:46 [nigel]
.. lines. Then the example illustrates that.
15:53:56 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm happy to try to make that change.
15:54:04 [nigel]
Andreas: I also agree, I found that first sentence a bit confusing.
15:54:19 [nigel]
Pierre: It's true, right, you can specify the position and timing independently, but that is
15:54:31 [nigel]
.. incredibly abstract, but for people especially with experience of, say, 608, will understand
15:54:36 [nigel]
.. the concept of regions.
15:55:34 [nigel]
.. To answer the question, I don't have any objections to adding examples at this point.
15:55:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks all for that.
15:55:52 [nigel]
Andreas: I also think it is useful and gives a good idea of how you could use TTML and
15:55:57 [nigel]
.. some of the basic patterns you can apply.
15:56:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Moving on due to time, that's really positive, thank you. The action is with me
15:56:48 [nigel]
.. to do another editorial pass on the first paragraph first sentence.
15:56:53 [nigel]
Topic: AOB TPAC Planning
15:58:11 [nigel]
Nigel: I think this is for Chairs now, and we have good input from members on this from
15:58:35 [nigel]
.. previous discussions. I may also have trouble getting funding for travel now, even if
15:58:47 [nigel]
.. there were no potential health implications.
15:59:01 [nigel]
Pierre: As another data point, in another group I chair, we have had long discussions about
15:59:11 [nigel]
.. this and concluded that we should try to arrange the best possible virtual meeting and
15:59:19 [nigel]
.. if somehow a physical meeting becomes possible, deal with that then.
15:59:33 [nigel]
.. Let's make the best out of it.
15:59:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Agreed.
15:59:52 [nigel]
Pierre: Especially with CSS-WG we should try to make an effort to meet virtually together
16:00:13 [nigel]
.. soon, regardless of TPAC, to coordinate our efforts on Ruby, text emphasis etc.
16:00:26 [nigel]
.. For example ruby overhang, if they want to discuss that.
16:00:34 [nigel]
.. tate chu yoko was another one.
16:01:10 [atsushi_]
(just these reminded me that I should work on JLReq more...)
16:01:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Action for me and Gary to work out how to fill the form in.
16:01:45 [nigel]
Gary: If you want to, feel free to fill it out, otherwise I guess if you want my feedback you
16:01:54 [nigel]
.. could put it in a doc and I can look it over and add comments or something.
16:02:37 [nigel]
Nigel: Okay, I'll fill it in, get what I wrote emailed back to me, share that with you, and if
16:02:44 [nigel]
.. there are any changes to make we can go back in and change it.
16:02:46 [nigel]
Gary: That works.
16:03:11 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:04:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're 2 minutes over so I'll adjourn. See you next time. [adjourns meeting]
16:04:26 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/07-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:24:23 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
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zakim, end meeting
16:24:27 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Atsushi, Pierre, Gary, Cyril
16:24:29 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:24:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/07-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:24:32 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:24:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
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rrsagent, excuse us
16:24:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items