15:00:48 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:48 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/05/07-tt-irc 15:00:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:00:51 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:58 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/111 15:01:06 Present: Andreas, Atsushi 15:01:17 Present+ Pierre 15:02:08 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html 15:02:18 Present+ Gary 15:02:21 scribe: nigel 15:02:24 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:02:43 Topic: This meeting 15:05:04 Gary: Today we have IMSC 1.2 - more discussion on the ARIB liaison. 15:05:27 .. WebVTT, more on the Unicode normalisation, though I haven't had chance to follow up. 15:05:37 .. Then TTML2 2nd Ed IR and a test to talk about 15:05:57 s/IR/IR, Test Suite 15:06:09 .. in AOB, more TPAC planning, and are there any more AOB items to discuss today? 15:06:42 Nigel: Atsushi reminded me we need to fill in the form, so even if we don't get to discuss 15:06:50 .. it today I will try to fill in something based on the discussion we have already had. 15:07:31 .. Also IMSC - how can we make progress? 15:07:41 Pierre: Yes, I would like to discuss that. We are stuck because of the HR business 15:07:47 .. and we need to take decisive action. 15:07:52 Nigel: OK let's cover that in IMSC 1.2 15:08:06 Topic: IMSC 1.2 15:08:30 Nigel: Two things today: status of the ARIB liaison and our response, and how we make progress. 15:08:32 Present+ Cyril 15:08:44 cyril has joined #tt 15:09:11 Nigel: On the ARIB liaison, we left it before that Atsushi would make an informal contact, 15:09:23 .. and I think if I understand correctly that the result is that we should raise GitHub issues. 15:09:34 Atsushi: In summary we can copy/paste their liaison comments into GitHub and discuss 15:09:59 .. them there. ARIB can't discuss them from there, so they would like a reply in liaison form. 15:10:16 Nigel: OK then someone needs to create the issues. 15:10:23 Atsushi: Yes, I will do that. 15:10:45 Pierre: I also could do it, I don't mind. 15:10:56 .. So we have confirmed that they are happy to make the issues public even though the 15:11:02 .. liaison is confidential? 15:11:17 Atsushi: I specifically pointed to the public repo and asked if it was okay. They are fine 15:11:21 .. for their comments to be made public. 15:11:24 Pierre: Perfect. 15:11:40 Atsushi: They need to conclude discussions internally collecting all comments from members 15:11:50 .. so that is why it is hard for them to contribute one by one on GitHub. 15:12:26 Nigel: Did you get any sense of whether or not they might want to adopt IMSC if their 15:12:30 .. comments were addressed? 15:13:14 Atsushi: They only said they want to get a reply. 15:13:30 Nigel: OK. Anyway it is great news that they want to engage with us. 15:14:05 Topic: IMSC 1.2 - how to make progress? 15:14:16 i/Nigel: On the ARIB/Topic: IMSC 1.2 - ARIB liaison 15:14:42 Nigel: It seems that Pierre and I (at least) have the feeling that we are a bit stuck with 15:14:50 .. the HR issues. 15:15:20 Pierre: What's on my plate is doing an introduction but we decided to do that once we 15:15:42 .. had conclusion on the other issues. I've not seen any review on PRs, for example. 15:15:52 .. I have not seen any reaction from the APA to our proposed resolutions. 15:16:22 .. We should avoid making changes that make noone happy. 15:16:45 .. One way would be to call a meeting and go through the issues. I think you proposed 15:16:52 .. that before and they did not take you up on it? 15:16:57 Nigel: I'm not sure from recollection. 15:17:29 Nigel: We moved all the privacy issues to TTML2? 15:17:42 Pierre: Correct. There's a TTML2 PR open and a comment that it ought to be generalised. 15:17:51 .. I don't know how to generalise it, but it is a TTML2 issue. 15:18:22 Nigel: We have 5 open issues from APA for IMSC 1.2 and one for a future version. 15:18:46 .. There are 6 pull requests open. 15:19:31 Pierre: The relevant ones are #526, #527 and #542 that are APA related. 15:19:49 .. For example #527 has a summary from us saying we want review by APA, from April 2. 15:20:03 Nigel: I'm sure they're super busy but this is really slow for us. 15:20:13 Pierre: I'm happy to reach out to the Chair of that group and to Philippe and to say this 15:20:18 .. is not a good way of working for us. 15:20:29 .. My recommendation is to ignore the issues and proceed. Making changes without the 15:20:40 .. commenter being involved is terrible. We will end up with the worst of all worlds. 15:20:51 .. If they don't have time the safest thing is to move ahead and deal with it later when 15:20:54 .. they have time. 15:21:23 .. I'm happy to craft an email or to have the Chairs or all of us do it. 15:21:39 .. The more I think about it this is really the issue - if they don't have time we should defer 15:21:41 .. and move on. 15:22:10 Nigel: This is no fun for us - we have vNext stuff to consider and we're in stasis waiting 15:22:11 .. to do it. 15:22:22 Nigel: Any other views? 15:22:38 Andreas: I agree 15:23:04 Nigel: I think this is probably better coming from the Chair. 15:23:11 Pierre: Happy to review that email and please CC me. 15:23:20 .. I don't think any of the issues is fatal so it is fine to defer them. 15:23:32 .. I'm really worried about the introduction myself. 15:23:53 q? 15:24:11 Topic: WebVTT 15:24:24 Gary: I did not get a chance to make progress on the Unicode issue so unless there are 15:24:31 .. thoughts from others I think we can skip it today. 15:24:53 Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition Implementation Report 15:25:03 Nigel: We have tests and the IR itself here. 15:26:14 .. Glenn merged a pull request on the tests recently, and there's one more outstanding one. 15:28:32 .. That is w3c/ttml2-tests#235, which I reviewed on 15 Nov, and reminded Glenn about 15:28:37 .. again a week ago and earlier today. 15:29:10 Cyril: If you look at line 16 the same comment would apply. 15:29:16 Nigel: Oh yes, I didn't notice that. 15:29:30 Cyril: Your comment is this is not testing the xml:id, but the semantic about nesting? 15:29:31 Nigel: Yes 15:29:35 Cyril: Makes sense to me, yes. 15:30:19 Nigel: I've added that comment to the pull request. 15:30:32 Cyril: What about the references then, if you change the inner xml:id, what about the used 15:31:26 .. attribute value? Oh actually line 14 has use="#nestedContentProfile" and there's a comment 15:31:35 .. that it's invalid as a fragment identifier. 15:31:44 Nigel: Now I'm confused about what this is trying to test. 15:31:51 Cyril: Yes he seems to be testing multiple things. 15:32:02 .. Maybe we should have nested profile elements without xml:id, and test that nesting 15:32:07 .. is not allowed. 15:32:20 .. I don't know if we need to test twice the same id, it doesn't make sense. 15:32:40 .. And then test that a `use` attribute refers to an absent profile element (in the invalid case). 15:33:07 Nigel: Thanks for the input, I'm not sufficiently confused that I will go back and check the 15:33:15 .. spec change that was made and what this test is trying to do. 15:33:35 .. 15:33:45 .. Moving on to the Implementation Report, 15:34:03 .. last time Cyril you volunteered to do a pass over the IR assuming that the tests would 15:34:13 .. be as they are if these pull requests get merged. I'm not sure if you managed to do that? 15:34:28 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport TTML2 2nd Ed Implementation Report 15:34:55 Cyril: I haven't had time yet, but I will do it. 15:35:50 Nigel: The next agenda item here is w3c/ttml2#1207 which is to add more examples 15:35:54 .. to the Introduction. 15:36:08 .. Last time I put this on the agenda when Glenn had registered regrets he objected to it 15:36:23 .. being discussed in his absence. He's not present today and wasn't last week when it was 15:36:41 .. on the agenda, and did not object again, so I think we need to make progress. 15:37:14 .. Cyril reviewed this a week ago and I resolved the comment about trailing whitespace. 15:37:31 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1207 TTML2 Pull request #1207 15:37:39 Nigel: Are there any other views on this pull request? 15:39:04 .. This pull request was opened 3 weeks ago and had some review. 15:41:21 Andreas: I didn't review the complete example in detail but in general it is super helpful 15:41:37 .. to have text and examples that clarify that putting region on body isn't always good. 15:41:53 .. People don't go into the detail about content being pruned if it has a different region, 15:42:02 .. to body in this case, so I think it is good to try to clarify and fix this. 15:42:10 Nigel: Thank you for that. 15:42:27 Cyril: I'm just reading the paragraph in the intro. It says each paragraph is flowed into 15:42:46 .. "its targeted region" but it means its own one but here there's only one. It should say 15:43:09 .. "each paragraph is flowed into the target region" not "its target region" - it is misleading. 15:43:20 .. This is in the existing text, not what's in the pull request. 15:44:59 Pierre: TTML2 has an introduction, that has an example that's not practical - misleading 15:45:15 .. is too strong a word, so this is an attempt to correct that by including a more practical 15:45:21 .. example. Is that correct? 15:45:23 Nigel: Yes. 15:45:36 Pierre: I'm wondering if the original example should be removed. If the problem was the 15:45:49 .. first example that is not incorrect but also not representative. Should it be removed and 15:45:56 .. replaced with this more complete example? 15:46:05 Nigel: I wouldn't object but I suspect Glenn might. 15:46:13 Pierre: As long as the new example is correct, it's fine with me. 15:46:50 Nigel: Obviously I believe it to be correct but it would be helpful to get extra review. 15:51:05 .. [shows pull request] 15:51:13 Pierre: This is a more advanced example? 15:51:15 Nigel: Yes 15:51:33 Pierre: If anything the complexity may make people think a bit more carefully. 15:52:08 .. "The location of content spatially is independent of its timing." strikes me as incredibly 15:52:12 .. abstract and mind-blowing. 15:52:32 .. The way I've tried to describe this is that the author defines region and selects what text 15:52:38 .. and when the text flows into those regions. 15:52:40 Nigel: Yes 15:52:53 Pierre: So there are multiple steps. First define regions, then specify text, and then specify 15:53:05 .. when that text flows in what region. This is how I try to summarise when people ask 15:53:23 .. how this all works. Figure out which region text in a document flows into, and then figure 15:53:29 .. out when, separately. 15:53:40 .. Looking at this, I'd be tempted to replace the first sentence by something along those 15:53:46 .. lines. Then the example illustrates that. 15:53:56 Nigel: I'm happy to try to make that change. 15:54:04 Andreas: I also agree, I found that first sentence a bit confusing. 15:54:19 Pierre: It's true, right, you can specify the position and timing independently, but that is 15:54:31 .. incredibly abstract, but for people especially with experience of, say, 608, will understand 15:54:36 .. the concept of regions. 15:55:34 .. To answer the question, I don't have any objections to adding examples at this point. 15:55:38 Nigel: Thanks all for that. 15:55:52 Andreas: I also think it is useful and gives a good idea of how you could use TTML and 15:55:57 .. some of the basic patterns you can apply. 15:56:35 Nigel: Moving on due to time, that's really positive, thank you. The action is with me 15:56:48 .. to do another editorial pass on the first paragraph first sentence. 15:56:53 Topic: AOB TPAC Planning 15:58:11 Nigel: I think this is for Chairs now, and we have good input from members on this from 15:58:35 .. previous discussions. I may also have trouble getting funding for travel now, even if 15:58:47 .. there were no potential health implications. 15:59:01 Pierre: As another data point, in another group I chair, we have had long discussions about 15:59:11 .. this and concluded that we should try to arrange the best possible virtual meeting and 15:59:19 .. if somehow a physical meeting becomes possible, deal with that then. 15:59:33 .. Let's make the best out of it. 15:59:38 Nigel: Agreed. 15:59:52 Pierre: Especially with CSS-WG we should try to make an effort to meet virtually together 16:00:13 .. soon, regardless of TPAC, to coordinate our efforts on Ruby, text emphasis etc. 16:00:26 .. For example ruby overhang, if they want to discuss that. 16:00:34 .. tate chu yoko was another one. 16:01:10 (just these reminded me that I should work on JLReq more...) 16:01:20 Nigel: Action for me and Gary to work out how to fill the form in. 16:01:45 Gary: If you want to, feel free to fill it out, otherwise I guess if you want my feedback you 16:01:54 .. could put it in a doc and I can look it over and add comments or something. 16:02:37 Nigel: Okay, I'll fill it in, get what I wrote emailed back to me, share that with you, and if 16:02:44 .. there are any changes to make we can go back in and change it. 16:02:46 Gary: That works. 16:03:11 Topic: Meeting close 16:04:20 Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're 2 minutes over so I'll adjourn. See you next time. [adjourns meeting] 16:04:26 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:04:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/07-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:24:23 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:24:27 zakim, end meeting 16:24:27 As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Atsushi, Pierre, Gary, Cyril 16:24:29 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:24:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/05/07-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:24:32 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:24:36 Zakim has left #tt 16:24:52 rrsagent, excuse us 16:24:52 I see no action items