15:00:57 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-irc 15:01:00 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:01:01 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:01:42 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference. Agenda for 2020-04-30 1500 UTC meeting: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/109 15:02:03 Present: Nigel, Gary 15:02:07 Chair: Nigel, Gary 15:02:32 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/109 15:02:53 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html 15:02:57 Regrets: Pierre 15:03:34 scribe: nigel 15:03:41 rrsagent, make minutes 15:03:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:04:47 atsushi has joined #tt 15:04:49 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:04:51 rrsagent, make minutes 15:04:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:06:02 Present+ Atsushi 15:06:55 Present+ Cyril 15:07:43 Topic: This meeting 15:08:02 Gary: Today we have a couple of IMSC topics, specifically more discussion about the 15:08:11 .. ARIB liaison, something about IMSC /rec. 15:08:19 .. A question for WebVTT around Unicode normalisation. 15:08:36 .. Some TTML2 2nd Ed IR updates, and then more TPAC planning maybe. 15:08:50 .. Any other business? 15:09:04 group: [no other business] 15:10:52 Topic: IMSC 1.2 - ARIB liaison 15:10:55 Nigel: Not sure if we can cover the IMSC ARIB liaison topic today, actually. 15:11:10 Atsushi: I can write a private email to get more information. 15:11:23 Nigel: Thank you that would be great, also to remove any potential language issues from 15:11:34 .. being a problem. Thank you. 15:11:45 Topic: IMSC /rec 15:12:07 Atsushi: For information, the in-place republishing has finished, 15:12:24 .. so there are updated links in the Rec publications for 1.0.1 and 1.1. 15:12:34 Nigel: Thank you for that. I'll remove this from the agenda now! 15:13:10 Topic: WebVTT: over-specification in Conformance: Unicode normalization w3c/webvtt#483 15:13:20 github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/483 15:13:48 Gary: This issue came from the i18n working group, about Unicode normalisation. 15:14:01 .. WebVTT specifically disallows this, and says to compare the bytes directly. 15:14:11 .. The issue raised is that it is not what we want, potentially. 15:14:24 .. I don't have much knowledge personally of why you would want or not want to do it. 15:14:34 .. From digging around in the history, it sounds like it was mostly to make sure that 15:14:44 .. things that are required in WebVTT are easy to identify like the arrow in the time 15:15:00 .. signature so that we aren't matching normalised Unicode and can find it more easily. 15:15:19 .. I want to ask if anyone had more knowledge about it, or if TTML or IMSC handle 15:15:23 .. Unicode normalisation. 15:15:58 Nigel: I think in TTML it is delegated to XML so whatever XML says, which we assume is 15:16:02 .. the correct thing, is what happens. 15:16:17 Gary: Yes. It's relevant that WebVTT is not XML but a text format with markup. 15:16:30 .. David Singer said that for the text of the cues we could do normalisation, but even that 15:16:41 .. might be a bit more complicated because HTML tags are allowed to be used. 15:16:58 Nigel: Also what about metadata payload in the cues? 15:17:23 .. For example if it is JSON, does that specify Unicode normalisation? I do not know. 15:19:01 https://infra.spec.whatwg.org/#json 15:19:06 Atsushi: In JSON I believe that it depends on the processor for values 15:19:13 -> https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-404.pdf json specification 15:19:28 Gary: The spec is quite small and just says it is a sequence of Unicode code points. 15:19:50 cyril has joined #tt 15:20:07 rrsagent, pointer 15:20:07 See https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-irc#T15-20-07 15:21:24 Atsushi: I think currently in WebVTT, case sensitive non-normalised matching is defined. 15:21:56 Nigel: The issue is that it is _not_ using that. 15:22:17 Atsushi: I think the linked document was written after work on WebVTT began. 15:22:40 .. The standard operation was written after WebVTT so maybe even if the result is the same 15:23:01 .. but some text is over-specified in the current standard. 15:23:49 Cyril: A different angle: do we have tests for this in WPT? 15:23:55 Gary: For Unicode normalisation? 15:24:03 Cyril: Yes, to match the MUST NOT in the spec. 15:24:07 Gary: I'm not sure 15:24:49 Nigel: Are you thinking about if we can establish what implementations do now via the tests? 15:24:52 Cyril: Yes 15:25:41 Gary: From a quick look I'm not seeing anything specific to Unicode. 15:28:13 Nigel: I'm a bit confused about where the line is drawn between parsing the WebVTT 15:28:26 .. document e.g. during processing, cue matching etc. and text presentation. 15:28:48 .. If some payload text is passed onto a text renderer and there's a step that does 15:29:02 .. normalise the text, is that broken, according to the spec text in ยง2.2? 15:29:17 Gary: The example is about cue matching, which is very specific. 15:30:07 Nigel: Is "processing" a defined term? 15:30:15 Gary: It could refer to the "processing model" part of the spec. 15:30:30 .. That would make sense because that's when you would be applying styling and whatnot. 15:31:12 Atsushi: I am not sure that there is any case that is not covered by "case sensitive non-normalising" 15:31:27 .. if there is no such case then I suppose it may be possible to write it into the standard 15:31:29 .. in a simpler way. 15:31:44 Gary: You mean to link to the charmod-norm spec to the section that matches what 15:31:47 .. we want to do in WebVTT? 15:32:06 Atsushi: Actually the character model normalisation is not a Rec track doc but a WG note 15:32:20 .. so it cannot be normative. You would need to copy and paste the spec text. 15:32:44 .. Recently there are several standards that say this kind of thing so having this kind of 15:33:34 .. spec may be easier for readers and may not have some strange cases. 15:34:08 .. The last point of the issue comment is for character encoding, but I'm not sure if we need 15:34:24 .. to have this strong restriction for later processing by scripts or web browser. 15:34:36 scribe: [not sure I got that very well] 15:34:41 Gary: You mean from cue text? 15:34:44 Atsushi: Yes 15:35:05 Nigel: Does the requirement that WebVTT is always UTF-8 make some of the concern 15:35:08 .. disappear here? 15:35:28 Atsushi: I need to think about that more. 15:35:48 .. At this moment I don't see any difference between the suggestion and the current 15:35:52 .. spec text and description. 15:36:35 Nigel: Not sure how we move to a resolution on this. Gary? 15:36:51 Gary: I think I need to read up on the charmod-norm first and it would be good to get 15:37:08 .. clarification on how WebVTT being specified as UTF-8 affects/does not affect things. 15:37:26 .. It does sound like it might be okay to change how we handle the cue text normalisation 15:37:33 .. but we likely don't want to do that for other parts of WebVTT. 15:39:19 SUMMARY: Investigation of impact to continue. 15:40:00 github-bot, end topic 15:40:32 Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition Implementation Report 15:40:55 Nigel: For the IR I think, unless there's an update, we still need to update the IR page 15:41:06 .. to reflect the full set of TTML2 2nd Edition tests. 15:41:36 Cyril: yes, still need to do that. 15:41:45 .. Did we merge all the test PRs? 15:42:27 Nigel: I see 2 open pull requests to add tests. 15:42:50 Cyril: #252 is not approved yet. Nigel and I commented on it. 15:43:01 .. #253 is not approved, only a comment from Nigel. 15:43:31 Nigel: Aargh I forgot to review Glenn's commit on #252 that he says addressed my comments. 15:44:03 s/253/235/ 15:44:12 .. On #235 there's an outstanding comment that hasn't been addressed. 15:44:17 s/253/235 15:44:26 .. Looks like we need to do those first. 15:44:45 Cyril: What's the outcome. Should we wait until we merge those pull requests? 15:44:53 Nigel: They're likely to be fixed and merged. 15:45:06 Cyril: I can consider them merged for the purpose of mentioning them in the IR 15:45:11 Nigel: I think that's pretty safe. 15:45:14 Cyril: Then I'll do that. 15:45:28 .. Then is this the end, can we give implementations a prompt to start filling their parts. 15:45:31 Nigel: I believe so. 15:45:38 Cyril: I will try to update the Netflix column. 15:45:51 .. As I said last time I don't expect that we will pass many of the tests because most of 15:45:57 .. them are features that we're not interested in. 15:50:23 Nigel: On the topic of implementations I just updated our Adhere audio description 15:50:35 .. implementation, which is at https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/ so you can try it out if you like. 15:50:56 .. It includes the TTML2 audio-in-body test which I believe passes. 15:53:11 Topic: AOB - TPAC 2020 planning 15:53:16 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/112 15:53:31 Nigel: On the time-per-session question, we sometimes go to 2 hours here, but I always 15:53:37 .. force a break in the middle. 15:53:51 Gary: Yeah, longer than 2 hours is too much. 15:54:40 Nigel: We discussed hallway conversations, any more progress on that? 15:54:55 Gary: A comment from last time is to have a "hallway track" session open all the time, 15:55:00 .. not tied to a working group. 15:56:01 Nigel: That's a good idea. I've seen breakout rooms used on Zoom, but only where there 15:56:11 .. is a central person creating them and sending people to them. 15:56:21 .. I don't know if they can be used in an ad hoc way. 15:56:37 Gary: Yes it's easier on zoom, I don't know if anyone can do it if the permissions can be setup that way. 15:56:58 Topic: Meeting close 15:57:10 Nigel: Let's adjourn for today. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 15:57:32 rrsagent, make minutes v2 15:57:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:59:52 scribe- [not sure I got that very well] 16:00:22 s/github-bot, end topic//g 16:00:53 s/scribe: [/[ 16:00:56 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:00:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:02:04 s|s/253/235|| 16:02:05 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:02:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:03:27 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:03:33 zakim, end meeting 16:03:33 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Gary, Atsushi, Cyril 16:03:34 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:03:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:03:38 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:03:42 Zakim has left #tt 16:10:20 Regrets+ Andreas 16:10:23 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:10:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:14:51 rrsagent, excuse us 17:14:51 I see no action items