Meeting minutes
This meeting
Gary: Going over the agenda.
… We have IMSC 1.2 issues, then the ARIB liaison, the TTML2 IR and then AOB.
… In AOB we have maybe more TPAC planning. Any other AOB items?
… If there's time I have a question about Unicode normalisation that came up earlier
… today for WebVTT.
… No AOB then.
Nigel: New Zakim command to push yourself to the front of the queue for a quick reply.
qq+ I'm first
qq+ me too
<Zakim> nigel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
<Zakim> I'm, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
IMSC 1.2 APA responses
Nigel: We got some APA responses on IMSC 1.2. Can we quickly iterate through to see
… if any warrants particular discussion here or if we defer to discussion on the GitHub issues.
… They are 520-524 inc.
Pierre: What are doing on 519?
… Does no response mean it is good?
Nigel: I see that there is one pull request that addresses 519 and 520.
Pierre: Maybe they're happy with the 519 part but not the 520 part?
Nigel: Let's assume that.
Pierre: OK that works for me, let's jump to 520.
APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520
Pierre: If you read success criterion 1.4.11 I thought it applied to UI components and
… graphical objects, but then @gzimmermann suggests it would cover emoticon.
… I'm surprised it would fall into that category. How do you draw the line between
… emoticon and ideograms and Japanese Kanji. I don't know how to make the distinction.
Nigel: On the basis that not everyone reading Japanese understands all the kanji just like
… not everyone would understand all emoticons at first glance?
Pierre: I think emoticons are treated as text just like Kanji. It's not clear where a line would be between them.
Gary: It looks like text is defined as a sequence expressing something in human language.
… I think emoji might be just beyond that.
Pierre: The line is really fine.
… There are some emojis that arguably cross that line. An emoji of a dog and the kanji
… of the concept of a dog are literally identical in concept.
… More importantly when I read 1.4.11 it seems like the intent is GUI elements not ideograms.
… If they say it covers emojis but not other ideograms then that's fine but I want to confirm
… that before doing something stupid.
Nigel: I think that's a fair concern.
Pierre: By the way why is the text contrast requirement higher? I would expect
… it to apply to emoji just as much as the text that surrounds it.
… My kids communicate half in emojis! It would be weird if they had less contrast.
SUMMARY: Continue discussion on the issue, seeking clarification from @gzimmermann.
Pierre: If we don't hear back soon we should aim to have a joint meeting to close on this
… more quickly.
Nigel: Yes.
APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521
Nigel: @gzimmermann proposed some text.
Pierre: I opened a pull request a few minutes ago.
… I didn't duplicate the proposal verbatim because some of it was already in the paragraph above.
… I did use the term consumer to contrast with the note about authors.
SUMMARY: Continue discussion by review of the pull request w3c/imsc#542
APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522
Nigel: @gzimmermann has answered your question Pierre that §5.1 is a good starting
… point for an introduction.
Pierre: I'd like to close #542 knowing we've go that right, and then begin work on an
… introduction.
… I hate introductions and I'm worried it will take a long time, because everyone has a
… different idea of what is needed and what accessibility means but if it is needed then
… we should do it. My recommendation is we do this last.
Nigel: We've discussed Explainers before, and I think it would be a good start to
… use the Explainer structure so that someone coming in from a cold start can read
… the introduction as an explainer and get a pretty good idea of what the spec is,
… how it might be used and how it fits with other work.
Pierre: I'm reluctant to start listing use cases because there are so many different ideas
… for them globally. For example look at the WebVTT intro and it says "see MAUR".
Nigel: That's fine, maybe that is all that's needed to set the context.
Pierre: Alright, I'm happy to pull all the introductory text into a single introduction section.
Gary: Yes Introductions are hard, it makes sense to do it last, definitely.
Pierre: The positive way I am looking at it is that it might make sense to bring the informative
… text together in one introduction. It might improve the document. That part I'm excited by.
Andreas: I agree with Pierre that it is really hard to cover all the use cases.
… Possibly something like MDN is a good place to look for more details about practical
… use cases.
Nigel: Add an informative link to the MDN docs?
Andreas: No not a proposal for a solution but just a point that some of the information
… should be somewhere else like MDN.
… Adding a link to it is a different question for us to consider.
SUMMARY: @palemieux to propose a pull request with an introduction after the other APA issues have been resolved.
APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523
Pierre: There's a PR open but no comment on that.
… I feel the work I put in is being ignored!
Nigel: @gzimmermann does reference the pull request #527 so I think he has actually
… noticed it, but added the comment to the issue not the pull request.
Pierre: Anyway I agree with your answer Nigel.
Nigel: It looks like there is support for my proposal on #527. I see that I haven't re-reviewed
… since you addressed my comment, not sure why.
Pierre: Hopefully I did exactly what you proposed.
Nigel: Then the 2nd comment needs some thought about what we do.
… I think Pierre agreed, I want to know if there is consensus in the group or another
… proposal that we can be more positive with.
Andreas: I think it is impossible to meet the requirement and think of every possible
… user customisation and author in this way. It is not really possible.
Nigel: Then are you suggesting not making a change?
Andreas: It is hard to see how you can make a change.
… Are you proposing adding a note explaining the limit of how authors can anticipate
… user customisation?
Nigel: I'm not proposing that.
Gary: Also isn't it the renderer that gives the users the capability of controlling the
… presentation?
Nigel: Yes it is.
Gary: So the author doesn't really have any control there at all.
Nigel: That's my understanding.
Gary: Other than trying to make it simpler so there's not a whole bunch of stuff to override,
… but as you mention there's a limit to how far people should be taking that.
Nigel: There is an example we talked about before, where the semantic organisation
… of content affects the ability to customise presentation.
… The example we've hit at the BBC is the ability to reduce text size. If each line of text
… is in a separate region then proportionally the lines get spaced further apart as the
… text size is reduced, but if the text is all in the same p, then the lines get closer together
… and the result is much more pleasing. That's just one example. I don't know how to
… write this down in a useful way.
Andreas: To meet the requirement you possibly need to agree on a certain pattern on
… how to write documents. To then give recommendations for how to be prepared for
… user customisation at presentation time.
Nigel: Possibly a statement we could make is that it is likely to be easier for presentation
… processors to apply customisations if the content is organised semantically.
Andreas: Can you explain what you mean?
Nigel: Yes, I'm referring to dialogue, say, being all in the same p for the same person,
… rather than broken up and targeted purely at a particular presentation paradigm.
Andreas: That's really hard, and unsolved. For example OSes like Android and iOS have
… different systems for presenting text. There's no concept for how this is brought together
… with subtitle and caption formats. It would be good to have the concept there but it
… is not existing yet so for our part, delivering the technical capability to deliver subtitles,
… it is really difficult to give any more advice now.
Nigel: Checking in then, is there some action we can take to address the second bullet?
Pierre: I don't know what we can write. The user does not need permission from the author.
… I don't know how that is useful for anybody.
Nigel: Any objections to us disposing to do nothing in response to the second bullet?
Pierre: I certainly don't object to that.
Nigel: I hear no objections so I think that's our agreed way forward.
SUMMARY: TTWG has not identified any way to address @gzimmermann's second bullet; review of #527 to continue with a view to merging.
APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524
Nigel: I think the proposal here is that we agree to hold a joint meeting with whoever
… wants to attend, and that we will make no change to IMSC 1.2 to address this.
Pierre: I guess they're not objecting to deferring this?
Nigel: Agreed, that's my reading anyway.
SUMMARY: TTWG would like to participate in a joint meeting to progress this, and will make no changes in IMSC 1.2 to try to address this.
ARIB incoming liaison
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116
Nigel: Is there anything we can action in IMSC 1.2 or requirements for v.next?
Pierre: The easy one is character set but that is a normative part of IMSC so we can't
… easily do it in 1.2. I think this came too late to deal with in IMSC 1.2
… We should probably do the character set one at some point - that seems like low hanging fruit.
… The rest: it is hard to understand if it is an encouragement to try to seek convergence
… or just some input that says "we're already doing this, you might want to". It is unclear.
Andreas: Yes, and it would be important to find out.
… If they have an interest in convergence then it would really make sense to build a liaison
… with a common goal, but that's a big question.
Pierre: It is also really formal. Thinking out loud, TTWG could try to find a way to have
… a more interactive discussion. Is this an invitation to seek convergence on a future
… version of IMSC in ARIB B62 or is this just input for TTWG's benefit only.
Nigel: The easy thing is to ask them, to respond with a liaison to say thank you,
… we can't do this in IMSC 1.2, but we could in IMSC 1.3 and what is their timeline.
Andreas: Yes, sounds good but we all know liaison process can be very slow.
… I propose to consider what Pierre said and try a less formal way to have a conversation,
… maybe with the Chairs or Editors, to get a feeling what is the way to go. That may help.
Nigel: OK that sounds like a good idea, I can try to use the contacts I have.
Pierre: Maybe the formal nature of this suggests they want to know it is being taken
… seriously. Maybe a formal invitation to collaborate with W3C would help. I've seen something
… like this before. Maybe that's their expectation, and the answer would be different
… if W3C invites them to collaborate rather than individuals talking. Food for thought.
Atsushi: I fully agree that this is a quite formal comment and with this statement.
… Maybe a formal reply and conversation is their intention.
Nigel: I think I need to think about this more.
Pierre: Has there been formal collaboration between W3C and ARIB in the past?
Nigel: I do not know.
Pierre: Atsushi, maybe you could look into that, maybe asking the staff if this has
… happened in the past.
Atsushi: For now I can only say that there is a liaison relationship between us and them,
… so in any case we can communicate to them about that.
… For some case I need to dig out something.
SUMMARY: Discussed in call today, Chairs to consider potential next steps, @himorin to look into history of collaboration with ARIB and W3C.
imsc/rec link
Nigel: We have a way forward for this. I haven't checked if it has been done yet.
Atsushi: I sent an email but if I get approval for the HTML5 I will replace it.
Nigel: Do you need anything from us?
Atsushi: Just a check.
Nigel: I think I already checked it and said it looks good.
Atsushi: Then I will work on replacing it.
Nigel: Thank you.
Meeting close
Nigel: We're out of time for today, so let's adjourn for today, meet again next week.
… Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]