IRC log of tt on 2020-04-23

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:21 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:00:34 [nigel]
Present: Gary, Nigel
15:00:40 [nigel]
Chair: Gary, Nigel
15:00:43 [nigel]
Regrets: Glenn
15:01:02 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html
15:01:09 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/108
15:02:30 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
15:02:59 [atsushi]
present+ atsushi
15:03:18 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:04:02 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
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Gary: Going over the agenda.
15:04:52 [nigel]
.. We have IMSC 1.2 issues, then the ARIB liaison, the TTML2 IR and then AOB.
15:05:03 [nigel]
.. In AOB we have maybe more TPAC planning. Any other AOB items?
15:05:19 [nigel]
.. If there's time I have a question about Unicode normalisation that came up earlier
15:05:21 [nigel]
.. today for WebVTT>
15:05:24 [nigel]
s/>/.
15:05:41 [nigel]
.. No AOB then.
15:06:05 [nigel]
Nigel: New Zakim command to push yourself to the front of the queue for a quick reply.
15:06:10 [nigel]
qq+ I'm first
15:06:21 [nigel]
qq+ me too
15:06:22 [cyril]
cyril has joined #tt
15:06:31 [nigel]
ack me
15:06:31 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
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ack I
15:06:32 [Zakim]
I'm, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
15:07:03 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.2 APA responses
15:07:23 [nigel]
Nigel: We got some APA responses on IMSC 1.2. Can we quickly iterate through to see
15:07:40 [nigel]
.. if any warrants particular discussion here or if we defer to discussion on the GitHub issues.
15:08:30 [nigel]
.. They are 520-524 inc.
15:08:34 [nigel]
Pierre: What are doing on 519?
15:08:39 [nigel]
.. Does no response mean it is good?
15:09:24 [nigel]
Nigel: I see that there is one pull request that addresses 519 and 520.
15:09:35 [nigel]
Pierre: Maybe they're happy with the 519 part but not the 520 part?
15:09:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Let's assume that.
15:09:49 [nigel]
Pierre: OK that works for me, let's jump to 520.
15:09:55 [nigel]
Topic: APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520
15:10:00 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520
15:10:45 [nigel]
Pierre: If you read success criterion 1.4.11 I thought it applied to UI components and
15:11:08 [nigel]
.. graphical objects, but then @gzimmermann suggests it would cover emoticon.
15:11:20 [nigel]
.. I'm surprised it would fall into that category. How do you draw the line between
15:11:35 [nigel]
.. emoticon and ideograms and Japanese Kanji. I don't know how to make the distinction.
15:12:26 [nigel]
Nigel: On the basis that not everyone reading Japanese understands all the kanji just like
15:12:36 [nigel]
.. not everyone would understand all emoticons at first glance?
15:12:59 [nigel]
Pierre: I think emoticons are treated as text just like Kanji. It's not clear where a line would be between them.
15:13:09 [nigel]
Gary: It looks like text is defined as a sequence expressing something in human language.
15:13:20 [nigel]
.. I think emoji might be just beyond that.
15:13:25 [nigel]
Pierre: The line is really fine.
15:13:43 [nigel]
.. There are some emojis that arguably cross that line. An emoji of a dog and the kanji
15:13:52 [nigel]
.. of the concept of a dog are literally identical in concept.
15:14:14 [nigel]
.. More importantly when I read 1.4.11 it seems like the intent is GUI elements not ideograms.
15:14:30 [nigel]
.. If they say it covers emojis but not other ideograms then that's fine but I want to confirm
15:14:36 [nigel]
.. that before doing something stupid.
15:14:46 [nigel]
Nigel: I think that's a fair concern.
15:15:18 [nigel]
Pierre: By the way why is the text contrast requirement higher? I would expect
15:15:28 [nigel]
.. it to apply to emoji just as much as the text that surrounds it.
15:15:44 [nigel]
.. My kids communicate half in emojis! It would be weird if they had less contrast.
15:16:19 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Continue discussion on the issue, seeking clarification from @gzimmermann.
15:16:32 [nigel]
Pierre: If we don't hear back soon we should aim to have a joint meeting to close on this
15:16:36 [nigel]
.. more quickly.
15:16:37 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes.
15:16:51 [nigel]
Topic: APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521
15:16:55 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521
15:17:50 [nigel]
Nigel: @gzimmermann proposed some text.
15:17:57 [nigel]
Pierre: I opened a pull request a few minutes ago.
15:18:30 [nigel]
.. I didn't duplicate the proposal verbatim because some of it was already in the paragraph above.
15:18:37 [nigel]
.. I did use the term consumer to contrast with the note about authors.
15:19:17 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Continue discussion by review of the pull request w3c/imsc#542
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15:19:32 [nigel]
Topic: APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522
15:19:36 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522
15:20:26 [nigel]
Nigel: @gzimmermann has answered your question Pierre that ยง5.1 is a good starting
15:20:30 [nigel]
.. point for an introduction.
15:20:45 [nigel]
Pierre: I'd like to close #542 knowing we've go that right, and then begin work on an
15:20:48 [nigel]
.. introduction.
15:20:59 [nigel]
.. I hate introductions and I'm worried it will take a long time, because everyone has a
15:21:11 [nigel]
.. different idea of what is needed and what accessibility means but if it is needed then
15:21:19 [nigel]
.. we should do it. My recommendation is we do this last.
15:22:26 [nigel]
Nigel: We've discussed Explainers before, and I think it would be a good start to
15:22:36 [nigel]
.. use the Explainer structure so that someone coming in from a cold start can read
15:22:46 [nigel]
.. the introduction as an explainer and get a pretty good idea of what the spec is,
15:22:53 [nigel]
.. how it might be used and how it fits with other work.
15:23:17 [nigel]
Pierre: I'm reluctant to start listing use cases because there are so many different ideas
15:23:41 [nigel]
.. for them globally. For example look at the WebVTT intro and it says "see MAUR".
15:23:56 [nigel]
Nigel: That's fine, maybe that is all that's needed to set the context.
15:24:13 [nigel]
Pierre: Alright, I'm happy to pull all the introductory text into a single introduction section.
15:24:24 [nigel]
Gary: Yes Introductions are hard, it makes sense to do it last, definitely.
15:24:45 [nigel]
Pierre: The positive way I am looking at it is that it might make sense to bring the informative
15:24:59 [nigel]
.. text together in one introduction. It might improve the document. That part I'm excited by.
15:25:19 [nigel]
Andreas: I agree with Pierre that it is really hard to cover all the use cases.
15:25:29 [nigel]
.. Possibly something like MDN is a good place to look for more details about practical
15:25:31 [nigel]
.. use cases.
15:25:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Add an informative link to the MDN docs?
15:25:53 [nigel]
Andreas: No not a proposal for a solution but just a point that some of the information
15:25:58 [nigel]
.. should be somewhere else like MDN.
15:26:08 [nigel]
.. Adding a link to it is a different question for us to consider.
15:26:58 [nigel]
SUMMARY: @palemieux to propose a pull request with an introduction after the other APA issues have been resolved.
15:27:15 [nigel]
Topic: APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523
15:27:19 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523
15:27:26 [nigel]
Pierre: There's a PR open but no comment on that.
15:27:45 [nigel]
.. I feel the work I put in is being ignored!
15:28:21 [nigel]
Nigel: @gzimmermann does reference the pull request #527 so I think he has actually
15:28:30 [nigel]
.. noticed it, but added the comment to the issue not the pull request.
15:28:45 [nigel]
Pierre: Anyway I agree with your answer Nigel.
15:29:44 [nigel]
Nigel: It looks like there is support for my proposal on #527. I see that I haven't re-reviewed
15:29:51 [nigel]
.. since you addressed my comment, not sure why.
15:29:59 [nigel]
Pierre: Hopefully I did exactly what you proposed.
15:30:16 [nigel]
Nigel: Then the 2nd comment needs some thought about what we do.
15:31:38 [nigel]
.. I think Pierre agreed, I want to know if there is consensus in the group or another
15:31:44 [nigel]
.. proposal that we can be more positive with.
15:31:54 [nigel]
Andreas: I think it is impossible to meet the requirement and think of every possible
15:32:06 [nigel]
.. user customisation and author in this way. It is not really possible.
15:32:19 [nigel]
Nigel: Then are you suggesting not making a change?
15:32:25 [nigel]
Andreas: It is hard to see how you can make a change.
15:32:45 [nigel]
.. Are you proposing adding a note explaining the limit of how authors can anticipate
15:32:50 [nigel]
.. user customisation?
15:32:53 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm not proposing that.
15:33:07 [nigel]
Gary: Also isn't it the renderer that gives the users the capability of controlling the
15:33:08 [nigel]
.. presentation?
15:33:12 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes it is.
15:33:23 [nigel]
Gary: So the author doesn't really have any control there at all.
15:33:29 [nigel]
Nigel: That's my understanding.
15:33:42 [nigel]
Gary: Other than trying to make it simpler so there's not a whole bunch of stuff to override,
15:33:50 [nigel]
.. but as you mention there's a limit to how far people should be taking that.
15:35:31 [nigel]
Nigel: There is an example we talked about before, where the semantic organisation
15:35:55 [nigel]
.. of content affects the ability to customise presentation.
15:36:09 [nigel]
.. The example we've hit at the BBC is the ability to reduce text size. If each line of text
15:36:21 [nigel]
.. is in a separate region then proportionally the lines get spaced further apart as the
15:36:36 [nigel]
.. text size is reduced, but if the text is all in the same p, then the lines get closer together
15:36:46 [nigel]
.. and the result is much more pleasing. That's just one example. I don't know how to
15:36:52 [nigel]
.. write this down in a useful way.
15:37:28 [nigel]
Andreas: To meet the requirement you possibly need to agree on a certain pattern on
15:37:38 [nigel]
.. how to write documents. To then give recommendations for how to be prepared for
15:37:43 [nigel]
.. user customisation at presentation time.
15:38:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Possibly a statement we could make is that it is likely to be easier for presentation
15:38:40 [nigel]
.. processors to apply customisations if the content is organised semantically.
15:38:45 [nigel]
Andreas: Can you explain what you mean?
15:40:04 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes, I'm referring to dialogue, say, being all in the same p for the same person,
15:40:17 [nigel]
.. rather than broken up and targeted purely at a particular presentation paradigm.
15:40:31 [nigel]
Andreas: That's really hard, and unsolved. For example OSes like Android and iOS have
15:40:43 [nigel]
.. different systems for presenting text. There's no concept for how this is brought together
15:40:54 [nigel]
.. with subtitle and caption formats. It would be good to have the concept there but it
15:41:07 [nigel]
.. is not existing yet so for our part, delivering the technical capability to deliver subtitles,
15:41:14 [nigel]
.. it is really difficult to give any more advice now.
15:42:03 [nigel]
Nigel: Checking in then, is there some action we can take to address the second bullet?
15:42:16 [nigel]
Pierre: I don't know what we can write. The user does not need permission from the author.
15:42:22 [nigel]
.. I don't know how that is useful for anybody.
15:42:47 [nigel]
Nigel: Any objections to us disposing to do nothing in response to the second bullet?
15:42:53 [nigel]
Pierre: I certainly don't object to that.
15:43:14 [nigel]
Nigel: I hear no objections so I think that's our agreed way forward.
15:43:44 [nigel]
SUMMARY: TTWG has not identified any way to address @gzimmermann's second bullet; review of #527 to continue with a view to merging.
15:43:59 [nigel]
Topic: APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524
15:44:04 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524
15:45:10 [nigel]
Nigel: I think the proposal here is that we agree to hold a joint meeting with whoever
15:45:20 [nigel]
.. wants to attend, and that we will make no change to IMSC 1.2 to address this.
15:45:58 [nigel]
Pierre: I guess they're not objecting to deferring this?
15:46:04 [nigel]
Nigel: Agreed, that's my reading anyway.
15:46:55 [nigel]
SUMMARY: TTWG would like to participate in a joint meeting to progress this, and will make no changes in IMSC 1.2 to try to address this.
15:47:12 [nigel]
Topic: ARIB incoming liaison
15:47:27 [nigel]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2020Apr/0000.html ARIB incoming liaison
15:47:45 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116
15:49:21 [nigel]
Nigel: Is there anything we can action in IMSC 1.2 or requirements for v.next?
15:49:32 [nigel]
Pierre: The easy one is character set but that is a normative part of IMSC so we can't
15:49:43 [nigel]
.. easily do it in 1.2. I think this came too late to deal with in IMSC 1.2
15:50:09 [nigel]
.. We should probably do the character set one at some point - that seems like low hanging fruit.
15:50:32 [nigel]
.. The rest: it is hard to understand if it is an encouragement to try to seek convergence
15:50:45 [nigel]
.. or just some input that says "we're already doing this, you might want to". It is unclear.
15:50:52 [nigel]
Andreas: Yes, and it would be important to find out.
15:51:05 [nigel]
.. If they have an interest in convergence then it would really make sense to build a liaison
15:51:11 [nigel]
.. with a common goal, but that's a big question.
15:51:25 [nigel]
Pierre: It is also really formal. Thinking out loud, TTWG could try to find a way to have
15:51:38 [nigel]
.. a more interactive discussion. Is this an invitation to seek convergence on a future
15:51:55 [nigel]
.. version of IMSC in ARIB B62 or is this just input for TTWG's benefit only.
15:52:48 [nigel]
Nigel: The easy thing is to ask them, to respond with a liaison to say thank you,
15:53:04 [nigel]
.. we can't do this in IMSC 1.2, but we could in IMSC 1.3 and what is their timeline.
15:53:16 [nigel]
Andreas: Yes, sounds good but we all know liaison process can be very slow.
15:53:30 [nigel]
.. I propose to consider what Pierre said and try a less formal way to have a conversation,
15:53:47 [nigel]
.. maybe with the Chairs or Editors, to get a feeling what is the way to go. That may help.
15:54:50 [nigel]
Nigel: OK that sounds like a good idea, I can try to use the contacts I have.
15:55:06 [nigel]
Pierre: Maybe the formal nature of this suggests they want to know it is being taken
15:55:21 [nigel]
.. seriously. Maybe a formal invitation to collaborate with W3C would help. I've seen something
15:55:36 [nigel]
.. like this before. Maybe that's their expectation, and the answer would be different
15:55:59 [nigel]
.. if W3C invites them to collaborate rather than individuals talking. Food for thought.
15:56:26 [nigel]
Atsushi: I fully agree that this is a quite formal comment and with this statement.
15:56:37 [nigel]
.. Maybe a formal reply and conversation is their intention.
15:57:24 [nigel]
Nigel: I think I need to think about this more.
15:57:38 [nigel]
Pierre: Has there been formal collaboration between W3C and ARIB in the past?
15:57:40 [nigel]
Nigel: I do not know.
15:57:59 [nigel]
Pierre: Atsushi, maybe you could look into that, maybe asking the staff if this has
15:58:02 [nigel]
.. happened in the past.
15:58:13 [nigel]
Atsushi: For now I can only say that there is a liaison relationship between us and them,
15:58:27 [nigel]
.. so in any case we can communicate to them about that.
15:58:34 [nigel]
.. For some case I need to dig out something.
15:59:17 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Discussed in call today, Chairs to consider potential next steps, @himorin to look into history of collaboration with ARIB and W3C.
15:59:44 [nigel]
Topic: imsc/rec link
16:00:02 [nigel]
Nigel: We have a way forward for this. I haven't checked if it has been done yet.
16:00:22 [nigel]
Atsushi: I sent an email but if I get approval for the HTML5 I will replace it.
16:00:27 [nigel]
Nigel: Do you need anything from us?
16:00:38 [nigel]
Atsushi: Just a check.
16:00:45 [nigel]
Nigel: I think I already checked it and said it looks good.
16:00:52 [nigel]
Atsushi: Then I will work on replacing it.
16:00:56 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you.
16:01:27 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:01:46 [nigel]
Nigel: We're out of time for today, so let's adjourn for today, meet again next week.
16:01:51 [nigel]
.. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
16:01:55 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:01:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:15:13 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:15:16 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:15:16 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Nigel, Pierre, atsushi, Andreas
16:15:18 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:15:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:15:21 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:15:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
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RRSagent, you are excused
16:15:32 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'you are excused', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:15:55 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:15:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
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RRSAgent has joined #tt
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc
17:11:02 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:11:03 [Zakim]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
17:11:54 [nigel]
Present+ Cyril
17:11:58 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes v2
17:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:12:19 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
17:12:19 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Cyril
17:12:20 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:12:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim
17:12:24 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:12:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
17:12:33 [nigel]
RRSAgent, excuse us
17:12:33 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items