IRC log of tt on 2020-04-23
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- Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
- 15:00:21 [nigel]
- scribe: nigel
- 15:00:34 [nigel]
- Present: Gary, Nigel
- 15:00:40 [nigel]
- Chair: Gary, Nigel
- 15:00:43 [nigel]
- Regrets: Glenn
- 15:01:02 [nigel]
- Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html
- 15:01:09 [nigel]
- Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/108
- 15:02:30 [nigel]
- Present+ Pierre
- 15:02:59 [atsushi]
- present+ atsushi
- 15:03:18 [nigel]
- Present+ Andreas
- 15:04:02 [nigel]
- Topic: This meeting
- 15:04:21 [atai]
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- 15:04:26 [nigel]
- Gary: Going over the agenda.
- 15:04:52 [nigel]
- .. We have IMSC 1.2 issues, then the ARIB liaison, the TTML2 IR and then AOB.
- 15:05:03 [nigel]
- .. In AOB we have maybe more TPAC planning. Any other AOB items?
- 15:05:19 [nigel]
- .. If there's time I have a question about Unicode normalisation that came up earlier
- 15:05:21 [nigel]
- .. today for WebVTT>
- 15:05:24 [nigel]
- s/>/.
- 15:05:41 [nigel]
- .. No AOB then.
- 15:06:05 [nigel]
- Nigel: New Zakim command to push yourself to the front of the queue for a quick reply.
- 15:06:10 [nigel]
- qq+ I'm first
- 15:06:21 [nigel]
- qq+ me too
- 15:06:22 [cyril]
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- 15:06:31 [nigel]
- ack me
- 15:06:31 [Zakim]
- nigel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
- 15:06:32 [nigel]
- ack I
- 15:06:32 [Zakim]
- I'm, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
- 15:07:03 [nigel]
- Topic: IMSC 1.2 APA responses
- 15:07:23 [nigel]
- Nigel: We got some APA responses on IMSC 1.2. Can we quickly iterate through to see
- 15:07:40 [nigel]
- .. if any warrants particular discussion here or if we defer to discussion on the GitHub issues.
- 15:08:30 [nigel]
- .. They are 520-524 inc.
- 15:08:34 [nigel]
- Pierre: What are doing on 519?
- 15:08:39 [nigel]
- .. Does no response mean it is good?
- 15:09:24 [nigel]
- Nigel: I see that there is one pull request that addresses 519 and 520.
- 15:09:35 [nigel]
- Pierre: Maybe they're happy with the 519 part but not the 520 part?
- 15:09:38 [nigel]
- Nigel: Let's assume that.
- 15:09:49 [nigel]
- Pierre: OK that works for me, let's jump to 520.
- 15:09:55 [nigel]
- Topic: APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520
- 15:10:00 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520
- 15:10:45 [nigel]
- Pierre: If you read success criterion 1.4.11 I thought it applied to UI components and
- 15:11:08 [nigel]
- .. graphical objects, but then @gzimmermann suggests it would cover emoticon.
- 15:11:20 [nigel]
- .. I'm surprised it would fall into that category. How do you draw the line between
- 15:11:35 [nigel]
- .. emoticon and ideograms and Japanese Kanji. I don't know how to make the distinction.
- 15:12:26 [nigel]
- Nigel: On the basis that not everyone reading Japanese understands all the kanji just like
- 15:12:36 [nigel]
- .. not everyone would understand all emoticons at first glance?
- 15:12:59 [nigel]
- Pierre: I think emoticons are treated as text just like Kanji. It's not clear where a line would be between them.
- 15:13:09 [nigel]
- Gary: It looks like text is defined as a sequence expressing something in human language.
- 15:13:20 [nigel]
- .. I think emoji might be just beyond that.
- 15:13:25 [nigel]
- Pierre: The line is really fine.
- 15:13:43 [nigel]
- .. There are some emojis that arguably cross that line. An emoji of a dog and the kanji
- 15:13:52 [nigel]
- .. of the concept of a dog are literally identical in concept.
- 15:14:14 [nigel]
- .. More importantly when I read 1.4.11 it seems like the intent is GUI elements not ideograms.
- 15:14:30 [nigel]
- .. If they say it covers emojis but not other ideograms then that's fine but I want to confirm
- 15:14:36 [nigel]
- .. that before doing something stupid.
- 15:14:46 [nigel]
- Nigel: I think that's a fair concern.
- 15:15:18 [nigel]
- Pierre: By the way why is the text contrast requirement higher? I would expect
- 15:15:28 [nigel]
- .. it to apply to emoji just as much as the text that surrounds it.
- 15:15:44 [nigel]
- .. My kids communicate half in emojis! It would be weird if they had less contrast.
- 15:16:19 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: Continue discussion on the issue, seeking clarification from @gzimmermann.
- 15:16:32 [nigel]
- Pierre: If we don't hear back soon we should aim to have a joint meeting to close on this
- 15:16:36 [nigel]
- .. more quickly.
- 15:16:37 [nigel]
- Nigel: Yes.
- 15:16:51 [nigel]
- Topic: APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521
- 15:16:55 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521
- 15:17:50 [nigel]
- Nigel: @gzimmermann proposed some text.
- 15:17:57 [nigel]
- Pierre: I opened a pull request a few minutes ago.
- 15:18:30 [nigel]
- .. I didn't duplicate the proposal verbatim because some of it was already in the paragraph above.
- 15:18:37 [nigel]
- .. I did use the term consumer to contrast with the note about authors.
- 15:19:17 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: Continue discussion by review of the pull request w3c/imsc#542
- 15:19:25 [atai1]
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- 15:19:32 [nigel]
- Topic: APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522
- 15:19:36 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522
- 15:20:26 [nigel]
- Nigel: @gzimmermann has answered your question Pierre that ยง5.1 is a good starting
- 15:20:30 [nigel]
- .. point for an introduction.
- 15:20:45 [nigel]
- Pierre: I'd like to close #542 knowing we've go that right, and then begin work on an
- 15:20:48 [nigel]
- .. introduction.
- 15:20:59 [nigel]
- .. I hate introductions and I'm worried it will take a long time, because everyone has a
- 15:21:11 [nigel]
- .. different idea of what is needed and what accessibility means but if it is needed then
- 15:21:19 [nigel]
- .. we should do it. My recommendation is we do this last.
- 15:22:26 [nigel]
- Nigel: We've discussed Explainers before, and I think it would be a good start to
- 15:22:36 [nigel]
- .. use the Explainer structure so that someone coming in from a cold start can read
- 15:22:46 [nigel]
- .. the introduction as an explainer and get a pretty good idea of what the spec is,
- 15:22:53 [nigel]
- .. how it might be used and how it fits with other work.
- 15:23:17 [nigel]
- Pierre: I'm reluctant to start listing use cases because there are so many different ideas
- 15:23:41 [nigel]
- .. for them globally. For example look at the WebVTT intro and it says "see MAUR".
- 15:23:56 [nigel]
- Nigel: That's fine, maybe that is all that's needed to set the context.
- 15:24:13 [nigel]
- Pierre: Alright, I'm happy to pull all the introductory text into a single introduction section.
- 15:24:24 [nigel]
- Gary: Yes Introductions are hard, it makes sense to do it last, definitely.
- 15:24:45 [nigel]
- Pierre: The positive way I am looking at it is that it might make sense to bring the informative
- 15:24:59 [nigel]
- .. text together in one introduction. It might improve the document. That part I'm excited by.
- 15:25:19 [nigel]
- Andreas: I agree with Pierre that it is really hard to cover all the use cases.
- 15:25:29 [nigel]
- .. Possibly something like MDN is a good place to look for more details about practical
- 15:25:31 [nigel]
- .. use cases.
- 15:25:42 [nigel]
- Nigel: Add an informative link to the MDN docs?
- 15:25:53 [nigel]
- Andreas: No not a proposal for a solution but just a point that some of the information
- 15:25:58 [nigel]
- .. should be somewhere else like MDN.
- 15:26:08 [nigel]
- .. Adding a link to it is a different question for us to consider.
- 15:26:58 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: @palemieux to propose a pull request with an introduction after the other APA issues have been resolved.
- 15:27:15 [nigel]
- Topic: APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523
- 15:27:19 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523
- 15:27:26 [nigel]
- Pierre: There's a PR open but no comment on that.
- 15:27:45 [nigel]
- .. I feel the work I put in is being ignored!
- 15:28:21 [nigel]
- Nigel: @gzimmermann does reference the pull request #527 so I think he has actually
- 15:28:30 [nigel]
- .. noticed it, but added the comment to the issue not the pull request.
- 15:28:45 [nigel]
- Pierre: Anyway I agree with your answer Nigel.
- 15:29:44 [nigel]
- Nigel: It looks like there is support for my proposal on #527. I see that I haven't re-reviewed
- 15:29:51 [nigel]
- .. since you addressed my comment, not sure why.
- 15:29:59 [nigel]
- Pierre: Hopefully I did exactly what you proposed.
- 15:30:16 [nigel]
- Nigel: Then the 2nd comment needs some thought about what we do.
- 15:31:38 [nigel]
- .. I think Pierre agreed, I want to know if there is consensus in the group or another
- 15:31:44 [nigel]
- .. proposal that we can be more positive with.
- 15:31:54 [nigel]
- Andreas: I think it is impossible to meet the requirement and think of every possible
- 15:32:06 [nigel]
- .. user customisation and author in this way. It is not really possible.
- 15:32:19 [nigel]
- Nigel: Then are you suggesting not making a change?
- 15:32:25 [nigel]
- Andreas: It is hard to see how you can make a change.
- 15:32:45 [nigel]
- .. Are you proposing adding a note explaining the limit of how authors can anticipate
- 15:32:50 [nigel]
- .. user customisation?
- 15:32:53 [nigel]
- Nigel: I'm not proposing that.
- 15:33:07 [nigel]
- Gary: Also isn't it the renderer that gives the users the capability of controlling the
- 15:33:08 [nigel]
- .. presentation?
- 15:33:12 [nigel]
- Nigel: Yes it is.
- 15:33:23 [nigel]
- Gary: So the author doesn't really have any control there at all.
- 15:33:29 [nigel]
- Nigel: That's my understanding.
- 15:33:42 [nigel]
- Gary: Other than trying to make it simpler so there's not a whole bunch of stuff to override,
- 15:33:50 [nigel]
- .. but as you mention there's a limit to how far people should be taking that.
- 15:35:31 [nigel]
- Nigel: There is an example we talked about before, where the semantic organisation
- 15:35:55 [nigel]
- .. of content affects the ability to customise presentation.
- 15:36:09 [nigel]
- .. The example we've hit at the BBC is the ability to reduce text size. If each line of text
- 15:36:21 [nigel]
- .. is in a separate region then proportionally the lines get spaced further apart as the
- 15:36:36 [nigel]
- .. text size is reduced, but if the text is all in the same p, then the lines get closer together
- 15:36:46 [nigel]
- .. and the result is much more pleasing. That's just one example. I don't know how to
- 15:36:52 [nigel]
- .. write this down in a useful way.
- 15:37:28 [nigel]
- Andreas: To meet the requirement you possibly need to agree on a certain pattern on
- 15:37:38 [nigel]
- .. how to write documents. To then give recommendations for how to be prepared for
- 15:37:43 [nigel]
- .. user customisation at presentation time.
- 15:38:26 [nigel]
- Nigel: Possibly a statement we could make is that it is likely to be easier for presentation
- 15:38:40 [nigel]
- .. processors to apply customisations if the content is organised semantically.
- 15:38:45 [nigel]
- Andreas: Can you explain what you mean?
- 15:40:04 [nigel]
- Nigel: Yes, I'm referring to dialogue, say, being all in the same p for the same person,
- 15:40:17 [nigel]
- .. rather than broken up and targeted purely at a particular presentation paradigm.
- 15:40:31 [nigel]
- Andreas: That's really hard, and unsolved. For example OSes like Android and iOS have
- 15:40:43 [nigel]
- .. different systems for presenting text. There's no concept for how this is brought together
- 15:40:54 [nigel]
- .. with subtitle and caption formats. It would be good to have the concept there but it
- 15:41:07 [nigel]
- .. is not existing yet so for our part, delivering the technical capability to deliver subtitles,
- 15:41:14 [nigel]
- .. it is really difficult to give any more advice now.
- 15:42:03 [nigel]
- Nigel: Checking in then, is there some action we can take to address the second bullet?
- 15:42:16 [nigel]
- Pierre: I don't know what we can write. The user does not need permission from the author.
- 15:42:22 [nigel]
- .. I don't know how that is useful for anybody.
- 15:42:47 [nigel]
- Nigel: Any objections to us disposing to do nothing in response to the second bullet?
- 15:42:53 [nigel]
- Pierre: I certainly don't object to that.
- 15:43:14 [nigel]
- Nigel: I hear no objections so I think that's our agreed way forward.
- 15:43:44 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: TTWG has not identified any way to address @gzimmermann's second bullet; review of #527 to continue with a view to merging.
- 15:43:59 [nigel]
- Topic: APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524
- 15:44:04 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524
- 15:45:10 [nigel]
- Nigel: I think the proposal here is that we agree to hold a joint meeting with whoever
- 15:45:20 [nigel]
- .. wants to attend, and that we will make no change to IMSC 1.2 to address this.
- 15:45:58 [nigel]
- Pierre: I guess they're not objecting to deferring this?
- 15:46:04 [nigel]
- Nigel: Agreed, that's my reading anyway.
- 15:46:55 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: TTWG would like to participate in a joint meeting to progress this, and will make no changes in IMSC 1.2 to try to address this.
- 15:47:12 [nigel]
- Topic: ARIB incoming liaison
- 15:47:27 [nigel]
- -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2020Apr/0000.html ARIB incoming liaison
- 15:47:45 [nigel]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116
- 15:49:21 [nigel]
- Nigel: Is there anything we can action in IMSC 1.2 or requirements for v.next?
- 15:49:32 [nigel]
- Pierre: The easy one is character set but that is a normative part of IMSC so we can't
- 15:49:43 [nigel]
- .. easily do it in 1.2. I think this came too late to deal with in IMSC 1.2
- 15:50:09 [nigel]
- .. We should probably do the character set one at some point - that seems like low hanging fruit.
- 15:50:32 [nigel]
- .. The rest: it is hard to understand if it is an encouragement to try to seek convergence
- 15:50:45 [nigel]
- .. or just some input that says "we're already doing this, you might want to". It is unclear.
- 15:50:52 [nigel]
- Andreas: Yes, and it would be important to find out.
- 15:51:05 [nigel]
- .. If they have an interest in convergence then it would really make sense to build a liaison
- 15:51:11 [nigel]
- .. with a common goal, but that's a big question.
- 15:51:25 [nigel]
- Pierre: It is also really formal. Thinking out loud, TTWG could try to find a way to have
- 15:51:38 [nigel]
- .. a more interactive discussion. Is this an invitation to seek convergence on a future
- 15:51:55 [nigel]
- .. version of IMSC in ARIB B62 or is this just input for TTWG's benefit only.
- 15:52:48 [nigel]
- Nigel: The easy thing is to ask them, to respond with a liaison to say thank you,
- 15:53:04 [nigel]
- .. we can't do this in IMSC 1.2, but we could in IMSC 1.3 and what is their timeline.
- 15:53:16 [nigel]
- Andreas: Yes, sounds good but we all know liaison process can be very slow.
- 15:53:30 [nigel]
- .. I propose to consider what Pierre said and try a less formal way to have a conversation,
- 15:53:47 [nigel]
- .. maybe with the Chairs or Editors, to get a feeling what is the way to go. That may help.
- 15:54:50 [nigel]
- Nigel: OK that sounds like a good idea, I can try to use the contacts I have.
- 15:55:06 [nigel]
- Pierre: Maybe the formal nature of this suggests they want to know it is being taken
- 15:55:21 [nigel]
- .. seriously. Maybe a formal invitation to collaborate with W3C would help. I've seen something
- 15:55:36 [nigel]
- .. like this before. Maybe that's their expectation, and the answer would be different
- 15:55:59 [nigel]
- .. if W3C invites them to collaborate rather than individuals talking. Food for thought.
- 15:56:26 [nigel]
- Atsushi: I fully agree that this is a quite formal comment and with this statement.
- 15:56:37 [nigel]
- .. Maybe a formal reply and conversation is their intention.
- 15:57:24 [nigel]
- Nigel: I think I need to think about this more.
- 15:57:38 [nigel]
- Pierre: Has there been formal collaboration between W3C and ARIB in the past?
- 15:57:40 [nigel]
- Nigel: I do not know.
- 15:57:59 [nigel]
- Pierre: Atsushi, maybe you could look into that, maybe asking the staff if this has
- 15:58:02 [nigel]
- .. happened in the past.
- 15:58:13 [nigel]
- Atsushi: For now I can only say that there is a liaison relationship between us and them,
- 15:58:27 [nigel]
- .. so in any case we can communicate to them about that.
- 15:58:34 [nigel]
- .. For some case I need to dig out something.
- 15:59:17 [nigel]
- SUMMARY: Discussed in call today, Chairs to consider potential next steps, @himorin to look into history of collaboration with ARIB and W3C.
- 15:59:44 [nigel]
- Topic: imsc/rec link
- 16:00:02 [nigel]
- Nigel: We have a way forward for this. I haven't checked if it has been done yet.
- 16:00:22 [nigel]
- Atsushi: I sent an email but if I get approval for the HTML5 I will replace it.
- 16:00:27 [nigel]
- Nigel: Do you need anything from us?
- 16:00:38 [nigel]
- Atsushi: Just a check.
- 16:00:45 [nigel]
- Nigel: I think I already checked it and said it looks good.
- 16:00:52 [nigel]
- Atsushi: Then I will work on replacing it.
- 16:00:56 [nigel]
- Nigel: Thank you.
- 16:01:27 [nigel]
- Topic: Meeting close
- 16:01:46 [nigel]
- Nigel: We're out of time for today, so let's adjourn for today, meet again next week.
- 16:01:51 [nigel]
- .. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
- 16:01:55 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes v2
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
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- scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
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- zakim, end meeting
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- As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Nigel, Pierre, atsushi, Andreas
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- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 16:15:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim
- 16:15:21 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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- Zakim has left #tt
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- RRSagent, you are excused
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- I'm logging. I don't understand 'you are excused', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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- rrsagent, excuse us
- 16:15:55 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc
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- Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
- 17:11:54 [nigel]
- Present+ Cyril
- 17:11:58 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes v2
- 17:11:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel
- 17:12:19 [nigel]
- zakim, end meeting
- 17:12:19 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Cyril
- 17:12:20 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 17:12:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim
- 17:12:24 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 17:12:28 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #tt
- 17:12:33 [nigel]
- RRSAgent, excuse us
- 17:12:33 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items