14:59:02 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc 14:59:05 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:59:06 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:21 scribe: nigel 15:00:34 Present: Gary, Nigel 15:00:40 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:00:43 Regrets: Glenn 15:01:02 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html 15:01:09 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/108 15:02:30 Present+ Pierre 15:02:59 present+ atsushi 15:03:18 Present+ Andreas 15:04:02 Topic: This meeting 15:04:21 atai has joined #tt 15:04:26 Gary: Going over the agenda. 15:04:52 .. We have IMSC 1.2 issues, then the ARIB liaison, the TTML2 IR and then AOB. 15:05:03 .. In AOB we have maybe more TPAC planning. Any other AOB items? 15:05:19 .. If there's time I have a question about Unicode normalisation that came up earlier 15:05:21 .. today for WebVTT> 15:05:24 s/>/. 15:05:41 .. No AOB then. 15:06:05 Nigel: New Zakim command to push yourself to the front of the queue for a quick reply. 15:06:10 qq+ I'm first 15:06:21 qq+ me too 15:06:22 cyril has joined #tt 15:06:31 ack me 15:06:31 nigel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker 15:06:32 ack I 15:06:32 I'm, you wanted to react to a previous speaker 15:07:03 Topic: IMSC 1.2 APA responses 15:07:23 Nigel: We got some APA responses on IMSC 1.2. Can we quickly iterate through to see 15:07:40 .. if any warrants particular discussion here or if we defer to discussion on the GitHub issues. 15:08:30 .. They are 520-524 inc. 15:08:34 Pierre: What are doing on 519? 15:08:39 .. Does no response mean it is good? 15:09:24 Nigel: I see that there is one pull request that addresses 519 and 520. 15:09:35 Pierre: Maybe they're happy with the 519 part but not the 520 part? 15:09:38 Nigel: Let's assume that. 15:09:49 Pierre: OK that works for me, let's jump to 520. 15:09:55 Topic: APA WG comment: Requested Additional WCAG 2.1 References imsc#520 15:10:00 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/520 15:10:45 Pierre: If you read success criterion 1.4.11 I thought it applied to UI components and 15:11:08 .. graphical objects, but then @gzimmermann suggests it would cover emoticon. 15:11:20 .. I'm surprised it would fall into that category. How do you draw the line between 15:11:35 .. emoticon and ideograms and Japanese Kanji. I don't know how to make the distinction. 15:12:26 Nigel: On the basis that not everyone reading Japanese understands all the kanji just like 15:12:36 .. not everyone would understand all emoticons at first glance? 15:12:59 Pierre: I think emoticons are treated as text just like Kanji. It's not clear where a line would be between them. 15:13:09 Gary: It looks like text is defined as a sequence expressing something in human language. 15:13:20 .. I think emoji might be just beyond that. 15:13:25 Pierre: The line is really fine. 15:13:43 .. There are some emojis that arguably cross that line. An emoji of a dog and the kanji 15:13:52 .. of the concept of a dog are literally identical in concept. 15:14:14 .. More importantly when I read 1.4.11 it seems like the intent is GUI elements not ideograms. 15:14:30 .. If they say it covers emojis but not other ideograms then that's fine but I want to confirm 15:14:36 .. that before doing something stupid. 15:14:46 Nigel: I think that's a fair concern. 15:15:18 Pierre: By the way why is the text contrast requirement higher? I would expect 15:15:28 .. it to apply to emoji just as much as the text that surrounds it. 15:15:44 .. My kids communicate half in emojis! It would be weird if they had less contrast. 15:16:19 SUMMARY: Continue discussion on the issue, seeking clarification from @gzimmermann. 15:16:32 Pierre: If we don't hear back soon we should aim to have a joint meeting to close on this 15:16:36 .. more quickly. 15:16:37 Nigel: Yes. 15:16:51 Topic: APA WG comment: Add note on alt text imsc#521 15:16:55 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/521 15:17:50 Nigel: @gzimmermann proposed some text. 15:17:57 Pierre: I opened a pull request a few minutes ago. 15:18:30 .. I didn't duplicate the proposal verbatim because some of it was already in the paragraph above. 15:18:37 .. I did use the term consumer to contrast with the note about authors. 15:19:17 SUMMARY: Continue discussion by review of the pull request w3c/imsc#542 15:19:25 atai1 has joined #tt 15:19:32 Topic: APA WG comment: Add introduction imsc#522 15:19:36 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/522 15:20:26 Nigel: @gzimmermann has answered your question Pierre that ยง5.1 is a good starting 15:20:30 .. point for an introduction. 15:20:45 Pierre: I'd like to close #542 knowing we've go that right, and then begin work on an 15:20:48 .. introduction. 15:20:59 .. I hate introductions and I'm worried it will take a long time, because everyone has a 15:21:11 .. different idea of what is needed and what accessibility means but if it is needed then 15:21:19 .. we should do it. My recommendation is we do this last. 15:22:26 Nigel: We've discussed Explainers before, and I think it would be a good start to 15:22:36 .. use the Explainer structure so that someone coming in from a cold start can read 15:22:46 .. the introduction as an explainer and get a pretty good idea of what the spec is, 15:22:53 .. how it might be used and how it fits with other work. 15:23:17 Pierre: I'm reluctant to start listing use cases because there are so many different ideas 15:23:41 .. for them globally. For example look at the WebVTT intro and it says "see MAUR". 15:23:56 Nigel: That's fine, maybe that is all that's needed to set the context. 15:24:13 Pierre: Alright, I'm happy to pull all the introductory text into a single introduction section. 15:24:24 Gary: Yes Introductions are hard, it makes sense to do it last, definitely. 15:24:45 Pierre: The positive way I am looking at it is that it might make sense to bring the informative 15:24:59 .. text together in one introduction. It might improve the document. That part I'm excited by. 15:25:19 Andreas: I agree with Pierre that it is really hard to cover all the use cases. 15:25:29 .. Possibly something like MDN is a good place to look for more details about practical 15:25:31 .. use cases. 15:25:42 Nigel: Add an informative link to the MDN docs? 15:25:53 Andreas: No not a proposal for a solution but just a point that some of the information 15:25:58 .. should be somewhere else like MDN. 15:26:08 .. Adding a link to it is a different question for us to consider. 15:26:58 SUMMARY: @palemieux to propose a pull request with an introduction after the other APA issues have been resolved. 15:27:15 Topic: APA WG comment: Author proposes, user disposes imsc#523 15:27:19 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/523 15:27:26 Pierre: There's a PR open but no comment on that. 15:27:45 .. I feel the work I put in is being ignored! 15:28:21 Nigel: @gzimmermann does reference the pull request #527 so I think he has actually 15:28:30 .. noticed it, but added the comment to the issue not the pull request. 15:28:45 Pierre: Anyway I agree with your answer Nigel. 15:29:44 Nigel: It looks like there is support for my proposal on #527. I see that I haven't re-reviewed 15:29:51 .. since you addressed my comment, not sure why. 15:29:59 Pierre: Hopefully I did exactly what you proposed. 15:30:16 Nigel: Then the 2nd comment needs some thought about what we do. 15:31:38 .. I think Pierre agreed, I want to know if there is consensus in the group or another 15:31:44 .. proposal that we can be more positive with. 15:31:54 Andreas: I think it is impossible to meet the requirement and think of every possible 15:32:06 .. user customisation and author in this way. It is not really possible. 15:32:19 Nigel: Then are you suggesting not making a change? 15:32:25 Andreas: It is hard to see how you can make a change. 15:32:45 .. Are you proposing adding a note explaining the limit of how authors can anticipate 15:32:50 .. user customisation? 15:32:53 Nigel: I'm not proposing that. 15:33:07 Gary: Also isn't it the renderer that gives the users the capability of controlling the 15:33:08 .. presentation? 15:33:12 Nigel: Yes it is. 15:33:23 Gary: So the author doesn't really have any control there at all. 15:33:29 Nigel: That's my understanding. 15:33:42 Gary: Other than trying to make it simpler so there's not a whole bunch of stuff to override, 15:33:50 .. but as you mention there's a limit to how far people should be taking that. 15:35:31 Nigel: There is an example we talked about before, where the semantic organisation 15:35:55 .. of content affects the ability to customise presentation. 15:36:09 .. The example we've hit at the BBC is the ability to reduce text size. If each line of text 15:36:21 .. is in a separate region then proportionally the lines get spaced further apart as the 15:36:36 .. text size is reduced, but if the text is all in the same p, then the lines get closer together 15:36:46 .. and the result is much more pleasing. That's just one example. I don't know how to 15:36:52 .. write this down in a useful way. 15:37:28 Andreas: To meet the requirement you possibly need to agree on a certain pattern on 15:37:38 .. how to write documents. To then give recommendations for how to be prepared for 15:37:43 .. user customisation at presentation time. 15:38:26 Nigel: Possibly a statement we could make is that it is likely to be easier for presentation 15:38:40 .. processors to apply customisations if the content is organised semantically. 15:38:45 Andreas: Can you explain what you mean? 15:40:04 Nigel: Yes, I'm referring to dialogue, say, being all in the same p for the same person, 15:40:17 .. rather than broken up and targeted purely at a particular presentation paradigm. 15:40:31 Andreas: That's really hard, and unsolved. For example OSes like Android and iOS have 15:40:43 .. different systems for presenting text. There's no concept for how this is brought together 15:40:54 .. with subtitle and caption formats. It would be good to have the concept there but it 15:41:07 .. is not existing yet so for our part, delivering the technical capability to deliver subtitles, 15:41:14 .. it is really difficult to give any more advice now. 15:42:03 Nigel: Checking in then, is there some action we can take to address the second bullet? 15:42:16 Pierre: I don't know what we can write. The user does not need permission from the author. 15:42:22 .. I don't know how that is useful for anybody. 15:42:47 Nigel: Any objections to us disposing to do nothing in response to the second bullet? 15:42:53 Pierre: I certainly don't object to that. 15:43:14 Nigel: I hear no objections so I think that's our agreed way forward. 15:43:44 SUMMARY: TTWG has not identified any way to address @gzimmermann's second bullet; review of #527 to continue with a view to merging. 15:43:59 Topic: APA WG comment: semantic layers imsc#524 15:44:04 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524 15:45:10 Nigel: I think the proposal here is that we agree to hold a joint meeting with whoever 15:45:20 .. wants to attend, and that we will make no change to IMSC 1.2 to address this. 15:45:58 Pierre: I guess they're not objecting to deferring this? 15:46:04 Nigel: Agreed, that's my reading anyway. 15:46:55 SUMMARY: TTWG would like to participate in a joint meeting to progress this, and will make no changes in IMSC 1.2 to try to address this. 15:47:12 Topic: ARIB incoming liaison 15:47:27 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2020Apr/0000.html ARIB incoming liaison 15:47:45 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/116 15:49:21 Nigel: Is there anything we can action in IMSC 1.2 or requirements for v.next? 15:49:32 Pierre: The easy one is character set but that is a normative part of IMSC so we can't 15:49:43 .. easily do it in 1.2. I think this came too late to deal with in IMSC 1.2 15:50:09 .. We should probably do the character set one at some point - that seems like low hanging fruit. 15:50:32 .. The rest: it is hard to understand if it is an encouragement to try to seek convergence 15:50:45 .. or just some input that says "we're already doing this, you might want to". It is unclear. 15:50:52 Andreas: Yes, and it would be important to find out. 15:51:05 .. If they have an interest in convergence then it would really make sense to build a liaison 15:51:11 .. with a common goal, but that's a big question. 15:51:25 Pierre: It is also really formal. Thinking out loud, TTWG could try to find a way to have 15:51:38 .. a more interactive discussion. Is this an invitation to seek convergence on a future 15:51:55 .. version of IMSC in ARIB B62 or is this just input for TTWG's benefit only. 15:52:48 Nigel: The easy thing is to ask them, to respond with a liaison to say thank you, 15:53:04 .. we can't do this in IMSC 1.2, but we could in IMSC 1.3 and what is their timeline. 15:53:16 Andreas: Yes, sounds good but we all know liaison process can be very slow. 15:53:30 .. I propose to consider what Pierre said and try a less formal way to have a conversation, 15:53:47 .. maybe with the Chairs or Editors, to get a feeling what is the way to go. That may help. 15:54:50 Nigel: OK that sounds like a good idea, I can try to use the contacts I have. 15:55:06 Pierre: Maybe the formal nature of this suggests they want to know it is being taken 15:55:21 .. seriously. Maybe a formal invitation to collaborate with W3C would help. I've seen something 15:55:36 .. like this before. Maybe that's their expectation, and the answer would be different 15:55:59 .. if W3C invites them to collaborate rather than individuals talking. Food for thought. 15:56:26 Atsushi: I fully agree that this is a quite formal comment and with this statement. 15:56:37 .. Maybe a formal reply and conversation is their intention. 15:57:24 Nigel: I think I need to think about this more. 15:57:38 Pierre: Has there been formal collaboration between W3C and ARIB in the past? 15:57:40 Nigel: I do not know. 15:57:59 Pierre: Atsushi, maybe you could look into that, maybe asking the staff if this has 15:58:02 .. happened in the past. 15:58:13 Atsushi: For now I can only say that there is a liaison relationship between us and them, 15:58:27 .. so in any case we can communicate to them about that. 15:58:34 .. For some case I need to dig out something. 15:59:17 SUMMARY: Discussed in call today, Chairs to consider potential next steps, @himorin to look into history of collaboration with ARIB and W3C. 15:59:44 Topic: imsc/rec link 16:00:02 Nigel: We have a way forward for this. I haven't checked if it has been done yet. 16:00:22 Atsushi: I sent an email but if I get approval for the HTML5 I will replace it. 16:00:27 Nigel: Do you need anything from us? 16:00:38 Atsushi: Just a check. 16:00:45 Nigel: I think I already checked it and said it looks good. 16:00:52 Atsushi: Then I will work on replacing it. 16:00:56 Nigel: Thank you. 16:01:27 Topic: Meeting close 16:01:46 Nigel: We're out of time for today, so let's adjourn for today, meet again next week. 16:01:51 .. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:01:55 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:01:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:15:13 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:15:16 zakim, end meeting 16:15:16 As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Nigel, Pierre, atsushi, Andreas 16:15:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:15:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:15:21 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:15:25 Zakim has left #tt 16:15:32 RRSagent, you are excused 16:15:32 I'm logging. I don't understand 'you are excused', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:15:55 rrsagent, excuse us 16:15:55 I see no action items 17:11:00 RRSAgent has joined #tt 17:11:00 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-irc 17:11:02 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:11:03 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 17:11:54 Present+ Cyril 17:11:58 rrsagent, make minutes v2 17:11:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:12:19 zakim, end meeting 17:12:19 As of this point the attendees have been Cyril 17:12:20 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 17:12:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim 17:12:24 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:12:28 Zakim has left #tt 17:12:33 RRSAgent, excuse us 17:12:33 I see no action items