15:01:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
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15:01:40 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:03:20 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/107
15:03:42 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2020/04/09-tt-minutes.html
15:04:00 <nigel> Present: Gary, Glenn, Nigel, Pierre, Cyril
15:04:11 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
15:04:11 <nigel> Regrets: None
15:04:14 <nigel> Chair: Nigel, Gary
15:04:53 <nigel> Present+ Andreas
15:05:08 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi
15:06:29 <atsushi> present+
15:06:37 <atsushi> (back to PC now)
15:06:48 <atai> atai has joined #tt
15:07:22 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:07:28 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
15:08:08 <cyril> nigel: some imsc topics, and TTML2 IR, and tests
15:08:20 <cyril> ... there is one AOB which is planning for TPAC
15:08:37 <cyril> ... is there any other business ?
15:08:50 <cyril> ... I noticed a open PR with a stalled discussion
15:09:28 <cyril> [silence]
15:09:45 <cyril> Topic: IMSC1.2
15:10:08 <cyril> nigel: we seem to have a way forward to have the rec link fixed on the published spec
15:10:21 <cyril> atsushi: last week we discussed editing the spec
15:10:31 <cyril> ... but that was invalid
15:10:41 <cyril> ... the only way is to do in place editing
15:10:49 <cyril> ... simply editing the HTML not using respec
15:11:19 <cyril> nigel: that's ok we just need to make sure in respec that future editions will have the correct spec
15:11:46 <cyril> nigel: any other thoughts?
15:11:50 <cyril> pal: sounds good
15:12:12 <cyril> pal: very quickly on IMSC1.2
15:12:26 <cyril> ... HR still no feedback on 2 PR from the APA?
15:12:36 <cyril> nigel: I had an action to ping Michael Cooper
15:12:46 <cyril> ... he responded to my email saying he'd look at it
15:12:51 <cyril> ... but so far hasn't
15:12:57 <cyril> pal: this is frustrating
15:13:07 <cyril> ... we were responsive in responding to their comments
15:13:20 <cyril> nigel: I had his response on April 8th
15:13:25 <cyril> ... over a week now
15:14:54 <cyril> nigel: the earliest date to advance to PR is the 5th of May
15:15:21 <cyril> ... but we need a version integrating comments
15:15:26 <cyril> ... I should nag them
15:15:30 <cyril> ... this is critical path
15:16:23 <cyril> cyril: if it were a non HR comment, we would have closed the comment already
15:16:36 <cyril> pal: we should include the team in the email thread
15:17:32 <cyril> Topic: TTML2 2nd Edition Implementation Report - tests
15:17:58 <cyril> nigel: we have 2 open PRs
15:19:23 <cyril> ... those PRs are againts 2 open issues on TTML2 test
15:20:19 <cyril> glenn: I just updated PR 252 this morning to add the line breaks as you had requested
15:20:29 <cyril> ... if you are satisfied we can dispatch it
15:20:31 <cyril> nigel: I will
15:20:37 <cyril> ... have a look
15:21:05 <cyril> glenn: the other one, I'll run through the issues next day or so
15:21:17 <cyril> ... I need to make a run on the IR document
15:21:34 <cyril> ... still don't know if anybody is working on actual implementation other than BBC on audio
15:22:05 <cyril> nigel: as far as audio and BBC, we integrated it to our tests and it succeeds
15:22:26 <cyril> ... it's public and visible so I'll add a link in the IR
15:23:03 <cyril> cyril: Netflix will have a very limited report regarding the new tests
15:23:16 <cyril> glenn: at least we'll have an implementation by the end of April
15:23:20 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport TTML2 Second Edition Implementation Report
15:23:29 <cyril> ... for all the presentation tests and validation tests
15:23:50 <cyril> ... I'll have to coordinate with Cyril with what they can provide and then see what's missing
15:24:13 <cyril> cyril: I suspect we will be missing a second validation implementation only
15:24:32 <cyril> glenn: correct. previously we had other validation implementations, from Pierre and Andreas
15:24:58 <cyril> ... in this particular set of tests, it's a mixture of presentation tests and validation tests
15:25:07 <cyril> ... 50/50
15:25:38 <cyril> nigel: the current IR does not need much change
15:25:56 <cyril> ... quite a few, maybe 50 validation tests, and 20-25 invalid, 3 presentation tests
15:26:05 <cyril> ... I know more presentation tests need to be added
15:27:11 <nigel> s/does not need much change/needs a review because I know some tests are missing. There are
15:27:15 <nigel> s/50/15
15:27:54 <cyril> nigel: anything else on that agenda topic?
15:28:02 <cyril> [silence]
15:28:24 <cyril> glenn: there are TTML2 editorial issues (typos)
15:28:33 <cyril> ... you had a request to make a change to an example
15:28:41 <cyril> ... I don't like to do it in 2nd edition
15:28:53 <cyril> ... I'd prefer to delay it to 3rd ed
15:29:03 <cyril> nigel: I already did a PR for a typo fix
15:29:12 <cyril> ... for the other one, I did not understand the concern
15:29:24 <cyril> ... I suggested changing 2 lines in the example
15:29:36 <cyril> ... you made a comment that they have been stable since TTML1
15:29:56 <cyril> glenn: we are only on record that the only changes that we would do are typo changes
15:29:58 <cyril> ... this is not
15:30:12 <cyril> ... this is not a WR or HR either
15:30:46 <cyril> nigel: I would consider it HR as it is completely editorial
15:31:02 <cyril> ... not a big deal, but clearly caused confusion
15:31:25 <cyril> glenn: it wasn't part of the review before CR
15:31:34 <cyril> nigel: I just received the feedback
15:32:02 <cyril> ... I'll continue to prepare the change regardless of when we merge it
15:32:21 <cyril> ... people were taking the example in the introduction as a good practice for positioning
15:33:46 <cyril> ... it seemed to me that it was worthwhile to address that feedback
15:34:29 <cyril> glenn: you said that if you have a body that specifies a region and an children with another region, some content would disappear
15:34:35 <cyril> nigel: yes, it gets pruned
15:34:46 <cyril> ... we had a long discussion in the past and concluded that
15:34:55 <cyril> glenn: hmm... I believe you are right
15:35:04 <cyril> nigel: that's why I think it's a bad example
15:35:20 <cyril> glenn: it's not applicable to the actual example
15:35:45 <cyril> ... that could be resolved by adding a note to the example
15:35:55 <cyril> nigel: why not
15:36:21 <cyril> glenn: I would be amenable to adding a note now
15:36:29 <cyril> nigel: let me have a look
15:36:43 <cyril> glenn: I just don't want to change the example
15:37:25 <cyril> Topic: TPAC Planning
15:37:38 <cyril> nigel: you might have seen TTWG issue 112
15:37:53 <cyril> ... staff have sent chairs a link to a survey
15:37:58 <cyril> ... as usual
15:38:22 <cyril> ... obviously this year is weird
15:38:29 <cyril> ... not clear we will have a physical meeting
15:38:40 <cyril> ... they have added questions about a virtual meeting
15:38:55 <cyril> ... not sure the best way is to have the discussion now
15:39:09 <cyril> ... so please have a look
15:39:14 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/112
15:39:31 <cyril> nigel: the virtual meeting questions are
15:39:53 <cyril> ... general attitude towards having it (too complicated, ...)
15:41:19 <cyril> atsushi: W3C opened several pages of notes for operations under the current situation
15:41:41 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/continuity.html Continuity of Operations under Travel Restrictions
15:41:44 <cyril> ... for this past one month, there were several F2F 3-4 meetings per day over 1 week
15:42:03 <atai> q+
15:42:03 <cyril> ... short meetings is considered an alternative meeting for offline TPAC
15:42:28 <cyril> ... it might be possible to have TPAC over several weeks
15:42:46 <cyril> .. there are several discussions, no solid decision to have online or offline
15:43:15 <cyril> pal: I want to echo that trying to recreate TPAC virtually is a fool's errands
15:43:18 <atsushi> continuity of operations under travel restrictions -> https://w3c.github.io/Guide/meetings/continuity.html
15:43:27 <cyril> ... virtual meetings have to be planned differently
15:43:50 <cyril> ... on the other hands, having a time and place to bring together multiple threads is very valuable
15:43:57 <cyril> ... on many weeks or one week
15:44:02 <cyril> ... is a good idea
15:44:05 <atsushi> web payments WG virtual F2F March 2020 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/FTF-Mar2020
15:45:44 <nigel> q+ pal
15:46:08 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:46:26 <nigel> cyril: ISO has proposed 3 meetings a day over a concentrated 1 week period,
15:46:46 <nigel> .. at something like 0500, 1000 and 2000 UTC time.
15:47:00 <nigel> .. I think we should avoid trying to do something like that.
15:47:04 <nigel> .. XXXXX
15:47:10 <nigel> ack atai
15:47:24 <nigel> Andreas: I agree. It's worthwhile thinking about the goals of TPAC and trying to
15:47:33 <nigel> .. achieve the same goals virtually in whatever form.
15:47:46 <nigel> .. It's a good opportunity to say that what is special about TPAC is not WG meetings,
15:47:57 <nigel> .. but joint meetings, because every group is organised in the same place.
15:48:11 <nigel> .. It would be a good idea to meet maybe over several weeks in fixed time zones over 2-3
15:48:21 <nigel> .. hours, with short WG meetings for preparation and post-joint-meeting discussions.
15:48:36 <nigel> .. It will be good to wait until the May AC meeting experience, which will also be virtual.
15:48:47 <atsushi> q+ info on AC 2020 May
15:49:00 <nigel> ack pal
15:49:07 <nigel> Pierre: I wanted to echo what Cyril says.
15:49:20 <cyril> s/XXXXX/I'm the best/
15:49:35 <nigel> .. It should be focused on joint work and I don't think that individual groups should
15:49:47 <nigel> .. be encouraged to meet. My observation is that virtual meetings can be more efficient
15:49:52 <nigel> .. but require a lot more pre-planning.
15:49:54 <cyril> s/I'm the best/We should focus a virtual TPAC on joint meetings only/
15:50:38 <atai> q+
15:51:00 <nigel> Pierre: When meeting face to face sometimes people take shortcuts, and it is easier
15:51:10 <nigel> .. to have side conversations. Maybe people feel they've set aside the time so they can
15:51:17 <nigel> .. fill it more flexibly. It's hard to tell.
15:51:27 <nigel> .. I like the idea of a TPAC where common threads are brought together but please
15:51:33 <nigel> .. let's not schedule WG meetings during that week,
15:51:36 <nigel> s/,/.
15:51:38 <nigel> ack info
15:51:38 <Zakim> info, you wanted to comment on AC 2020 May
15:51:48 <nigel> Atsushi: Just for info about the AC meeting next month.
15:52:02 <nigel> .. It is quite different from WG discussions so W3C will provide pre-recorded videos
15:52:18 <nigel> .. for talks over 9-10 hours and try to have 90 minute conversations, two times.
15:52:27 <nigel> .. That's how virtual AC 2020 will be organised.
15:52:51 <nigel> .. It's quite a different set of conditions from our WG meeting.
15:52:57 <nigel> ack atsushi
15:52:59 <nigel> ack atai
15:53:27 <nigel> s/It would be a good idea to meet maybe over several weeks/It would not be a good idea to meet maybe over several weeks
15:54:04 <nigel> s/over several weeks/over several weeks, rather over one week
15:55:08 <nigel> Nigel: Would it be a good idea to try to simulate side-conversations?
15:55:17 <nigel> Pierre: If anyone can crack that it would be great progress for humanity in general!
15:55:30 <nigel> .. If there's a way to solve it that would be great. Current platforms make it really
15:55:33 <nigel> .. hard to have those conversations.
15:55:52 <nigel> .. Those side conversations only happen during meetings, and it isn't facilitated in breaks etc.
15:55:59 <nigel> .. If any org can do it, W3C can!
15:56:09 <nigel> .. It is the missing thing from virtual meetings.
15:56:21 <nigel> .. People work around it somehow. Maybe it can be integrated in meeting planning.
15:56:34 <nigel> .. That's a stretch goal. It is possible to plan TPAC as a virtual meeting, but will require
15:56:37 <nigel> .. more planning than usual.
15:57:39 <nigel> Nigel: Another question is on the duration and timezone. A single TPAC timezone,
15:57:51 <nigel> .. or using only a small part of the working day that works best globally?
15:58:23 <nigel> Pierre: I would be pragmatic here for a big plenary. For joint meetings, base it entirely
15:58:33 <nigel> .. on the membership, and who can attend and where they are.
15:58:57 <nigel> .. Picking a single time zone is not pragmatic. It is simple conceptually but makes nobody
15:59:07 <nigel> .. happy other than the people in that timezone. I don't like that solution at all.
15:59:40 <nigel> Glenn: Was there a location originally planned?
15:59:43 <nigel> Nigel: Vancouver
15:59:55 <nigel> Pierre: I'd love it in Vancouver's time zone but I think it's a terrible idea.
16:00:49 <nigel> .. For individual group meetings I would base it entirely on the attendees.
16:00:57 <nigel> q?
16:02:07 <nigel> Nigel: We are out of time for today and we covered a lot, but we may need to come back to canvas
16:02:17 <nigel> .. opinions on some of the questions we haven't tackled.
16:02:33 <nigel> Gary: One idea for the side conversation is time scheduled for a Webex where anyone
16:02:47 <nigel> .. can join, regardless of group, especially if we are doing the remote thing.
16:02:55 <nigel> .. Some people may still have travel restrictions in place.
16:04:32 <nigel> SUMMARY: Initial discussion: don't try to reproduce TPAC virtually, focus on the joint meetings and main benefits of cross-fertilisation of ideas and groups.
16:04:36 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
16:04:50 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time for today. [adjourns meeting]
16:04:54 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:05:29 <atai> atai has left #tt
16:07:06 <nigel> s/(back to PC now)//
16:08:24 <nigel> s/I would consider it HR/I would consider it WR
16:11:08 <nigel> s/atsushi/Atsushi/g
16:11:20 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:11:24 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
16:11:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Gary, Glenn, Nigel, Pierre, Cyril, Andreas, Atsushi
16:11:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:11:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/04/16-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:11:29 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:11:29 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
16:11:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt